March 05 2005
A Whedon-free BtVS?
Uh...is this some kind of early April Fool's Day joke? (please don't take this article seriously, it's a publicity stunt - Simon).
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Gage | March 05, 00:21 CET
Biff Turkle | March 05, 00:35 CET
Firefly Flanatic | March 05, 00:44 CET
That's almost evil, invoking this site even if it was only indirectly. Man, I wish I could take back my hit on that page. Curiosity got the better of me, and now I feel all dirty.
Wiseblood | March 05, 00:46 CET
And Joss did come up with the concept, the original concept involved some sort of..super waitress? He talks about it in the buffy biography A&E special on the bufy season 6 DVD.
[ edited by eddy on 2005-03-05 08:01 ]
eddy | March 05, 01:00 CET
And Joss got the BtVS movie as a "write-for-hire job"!? Goes against everything I've ever read or heard about the genesis of the project. JW has talked at length in numerous interviews about his early writing and the creation of Buffy. And now suddenly we're supposed to trust the word of an unnamed Sony exec? Give me a gorram break . . .
And the frozen Buffy concept? Buffy Summers in the 25th Century? Uh-huh . . .
SoddingNancyTribe | March 05, 01:09 CET
Gio | March 05, 01:17 CET
Can I scream blasphemy? Bloody murder?
I feel very insulted just reading that!
Emma Frost | March 05, 01:18 CET
Willowy | March 05, 01:53 CET
Daburcor | March 05, 01:56 CET
And I would have been concerned had I not remembered that the same sorry pack of wankers had some WW page up a few weeks ago (promoting some unknown actress) doing essentially the same thing - trying to start some story off in the hope some big site will pick it up and then give it momentum (which happened to some small extent with the WW one).
This one however is so stupid that no-one should be fooled!
catalyst2 | March 05, 02:00 CET
BufSlyAngel | March 05, 02:58 CET
The Dark Shape | March 05, 04:12 CET
I'm hyperventilating with anger and frustration right now. If I didn't need a monitor I would have punched my hand through the screen. That is one of the most upsetting things I've seen in a long time.
Okay, really not that angry (or upset)... Just perplexed by the idea of such a lame publicity stunt.
[ edited by ShadowKatie on 2005-03-05 12:08 ]
ShadowKatie | March 05, 04:17 CET
Simon | March 05, 04:37 CET
The Arcane | March 05, 04:55 CET
This's the stupidest "commercial" idea ever. I can't help but laugh. ShadowKatie I'm sure, it's a fake report to get publicity like Simon said.
pelinxf | March 05, 04:56 CET
Anyhow, what's mentioned in this article is drivel and not very good drivel at that. The whole purpose behind this article is to get publicity for Richard O'Sullivan. Those with long memories will remember about the "script" for Angel season 5 episode 1 that appeared at AICN. It was leaked in such a way so he could get maximum publicity.
This Buffy article will get picked up by webmasters and journalists who lurk here and so there will be a couple of days of "New non-Whedon Buffy series?" headlines at the usual sites. Which in turn will cause more consternation among Buffy fans.
Cast your mind back to this Wonder Woman article that came from the same site. It got mentioned at Whedonesque, moviehole.net picked it up as a result and so in turn did other sites. And of course, there was no truth in the article.
Quite frankly this Buffy article is a disgrace and a highly cynical attempt to get noticed. The best thing to happen would be for this article not to get mentioned anywhere else.
Simon | March 05, 05:00 CET
As you have said, this will most likely spread like wild fire throughout the Buffy fan community and eventually be treated as truth, that is just the way things work on the net. Rumours and lies about the cast and crew of television series get repeated on the net so often that they become urban myths of the world wide web.
I can certainly appreciate why Saturn Girl posted this here but the best thing to do would be delete the story from Whedonesque before any other source is able to use the site to help validate the story, however it is probably already too late for that.
Maybe a "bullshit" disclaimer added to the original post might help?
The Arcane | March 05, 05:13 CET
Madhatter | March 05, 05:34 CET
ariana75 | March 05, 05:44 CET
Spikecam21 | March 05, 06:23 CET
Ghost Spike | March 05, 06:50 CET
giles (yes, it is my real name) | March 05, 07:07 CET
charisma | March 05, 07:45 CET
Passion | March 05, 07:58 CET
Ocular | March 05, 08:48 CET
Robert Anton Wilson of the Illuminatus Trilogy has mentioned before in a radio interview I can't find readily at my fingertips something about this. He was talking about conspiracy theories and how sometimes one lie is created to create a smokescreen that hides something else entirely. It's a fascinating concept actually, and what the tv series X-Files was based upon: at least in early seasons. Are there aliens or is it a government coverup? Chris Carter's eventual answer to that in the context of his series was "yes." To both. However, the early exploration of maybe/maybe not was more fascinating than the actual answer.
Personally I think it's plausible that the recent 'breakup' of Anniston and Pitt was to create publicity for the Pitt/Jolie film that came out around that time. Was Anniston really jealous of Jolie and Pitt spending so much time together during and after that film's production? Maybe she was. Maybe she was pretending for the paparazzi. Maybe the producers of the Jolie/Pitt film leaked out lies about arguments the actors were having behind closed doors, to make people think something was happening that really wasn't. Maybe it was all true, and the movie's producers had nothing to do with it. I'm too pessimistic to believe that last one, but the point is we don't know and we may never, and does that matter? Do we really have to know the objective truth about everything? Is it really our business to know the minds of actors off screen? We MAKE it our business often, but if they're able to occasionally pull the wool over our eyes, my hat's off to'em.
I'd probably invent lies about myself all the time if I were famous. It'd be like a hobby. =) This sorta crap happens every day in trash publications like the National Enquirer or the New York Post. Then the media wonders why the public doesn't trust them anymore. It's nothing new though. William Randolph Hearst made a career out of it in his publications. It's why Orson Welles went after him in the film Citizen Kane. No one should have the power to effect subjective reality on such a grand scale.
James Randi has made a career out of debunking such attempts to affect subjective reality, choosing to use logic and science to demean any attempts by others to take advantage of the populous' ignorance. In our own much smaller way, we here at Whedonesque are doing the same thing to any and all stories regarding our favorite writer and the many talented people he's worked with over the years.
In this case though, it's harmless because it's so transparent. Worse laid transparencies have done far more damage though in the past. Ironically, if Joss Whedon came forward and denounced these ridiculous claims, he'd inadvertently help to legitimize that the concerns deserved discrediting. This thread's primary link is a snowball. Left unchecked it could turn into an avalanche, and that sort of thing happens all the time. Eternal vigilance is the key. =)
ZachsMind | March 05, 10:40 CET
[ edited by Drifter on 2005-03-05 17:55 ]
Drifter | March 05, 10:55 CET
Maybe I need to cultivate a more cynical outlook, but it does seem to me that sometimes these people can't break wind without having us scurrying away in search of a hidden agenda.
alien lanes | March 05, 11:34 CET
http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=9&t=9057&m=122186#122186
I hope you don't mind Simon, I quoted your explaination.
I felt it was important to get the truth out there since the lie already was....
sigh
[ edited by embers on 2005-03-05 18:42 ]
embers | March 05, 11:40 CET
discouragedelete links from Lost Colony. Goebbels said "The bigger the lie, the more it will be believed". Let's hope in this case, the Buffyverse fandom will see this article for what it is and not be taken in.Simon | March 05, 12:00 CET
cmbackshane | March 05, 12:16 CET
Angel TheVampire | March 05, 13:09 CET
Needless to say, I hope Richard O'Sullivan's career never gets off the ground. He seems to have very few ethics.
Invisible Green | March 05, 14:00 CET
Daromaius | March 05, 14:45 CET
SpikeBad | March 05, 14:48 CET
BUT today I watched the commentary for "Not Fade Away". And during the ending credits Jeffrey Bell mentions something about producers that FOX forbid him to mention. Looking through the credits list I realized that the only possible candidates for that statement is Fran Rubel Kuzui and Kaz Kuzui. They have never been mentioned at any point during the series or on any of the commentaries. So I begin thinking why that is...
Now I read this article. And after hearing the Jeffrey Bell commentary I actually believe this is all true. That could explain why FOX don't want the Kuzui's mentioned at all, nor do Joss I believe.
Finally, the thought of making anything Slayerverse related without Joss Whedon stearing the ship sounds like absolute lunacy. Seriously, who honestly believes that the fans of Buffy would support something like that. And placing it 90 years into the future and never even MENTION Willow, Xander, Angel, Dawn etc, that would probably eventually alienate the handful of fans that actually tuned in. This idea is completely farfetched and should be buried somewhere quickly.
Djungelurban | March 05, 14:51 CET
Check IMDB. I know they're not the most accurate thing ever but anyway. They credit Joss with "Written By". See IMDB for their explanation of story credit as decided by the WGA. This is VERY important, it makes a vast difference in money, royalties, rights etc. If you're given credit by the WGA then it's yours. If somone else came up with the idea they get 'Story' credit and you get 'Screenplay' credit. And NO produce would ever give away such a credit to a writer-for-hire.
See here for Gladiator or Alien Resurection where they seperate the script and the character creation for example.
And if someone else really owned the character then would they really have sat around for eight years and let Joss get all the glory AND establish 'ownership' of such a valuable franchise? These rights have to be protected otherwise you lose them. You wouldn't wait eight years and then sorta do something half heartedly....
[ edited by zz9 on 2005-03-05 22:02 ]
zz9 | March 05, 14:56 CET
Appropos of very little, has anyone else here seen Fran Rebel Kuzui's autobiographical debut film, "Tokyo Pop", which I guess is supposed to be the story of how Fran Rubel and Kaz Kazui got together. Pretty slight stuff, but, as I remember, better than the BtVs movie.
bobster | March 05, 15:13 CET
eddy | March 05, 15:24 CET
http://members.aol.com/morgands1/closeup/text/kuzui.htm
She says, "... Buffy was a film that I owned", although she doesn't take credit for creating the character. In another passage in the interview she says, "That all happened two months before I found Buffy."
I don't know if this is of any interest, or of any help, but since Fran Rubel Kuzui and Kaz Kazui have been mentioned I thought I would pass on the information.
alien lanes | March 05, 15:50 CET
"At least 2 of the executive producers have never seen the set of Angel. A business deal signed at the outset of Buffy the Vampire Slayer feature film gave those a financial stake in all things 'Buffy. They've received credit and sizable checks for the duration of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel for doing absolutely nothing.(Names furnished upon request)"
He's obviously talking about the Kuzuis here, and though he can't mention them by name, he makes no attempt to hide that it's them. I don't clearly remember but I've read similiar things for years. They worked themselves in at the beginning, and despite them royally screwing up the movie, they've been making money off Joss' babies for years now. They've never been involved since, and have never once contested the fact that Joss created the entire concept of Buffy. If this article had even a grain of truth, why wouldn't the Kuzuis have screamed bloody murder when a guy who was just a 'writer for hire' on the movie went off and did a Buffy show without them? Or at the million times when Joss explained how he came up with Buffy??
(It's actually funny when you look at Joss' work and then at the Buffy movie that it's obvious the Kuzuis didn't come up with the core concept, because they don't GET the actual core concept of the 'girl in the alley'. That's why the movie was so bad!)
No, like Simon explained, this site excels in cheap publicity stunts that do nothing but stir up dust that will hopefully get name recognition for people like this. The most shameless site I've ever seen in that regard I might add.
The Kuzuis should be on their knees daily thanking any possible Powers that Be that they managed to get a good contract up in the beginning for them, so that they could continue to get loads of cash from something that they initially as good as destroyed and then (thankfully) never worked on again.
(PS thanks dashboardprophet, that's one of those things I remember reading, but didn't know where.)
[ edited by EdDantes on 2005-03-05 22:57 ]
EdDantes | March 05, 15:55 CET
I am not trying to give the Kuzuis any credit here, but I rather like the film. I always thought Kristy Swanson was pretty good in the title role, and once we got to see how 'Buffy' should be done, it became easy to spot the bits of Joss Whedon's script that made it through intact.
We all know that Joss is responsible for 'Buffy', and any claim to the contrary is, frankly, bollocks. This nonsense will blow over soon enough.
alien lanes | March 05, 16:06 CET
It sounds like something from that interview has surfaced and been rehashed to allow someone somewhere to ride on Joss's coat tails and think about a whole "new" version of our beloved slayer but I think I speak for all fans when I say we would boycott any Buffy work that did not have the blessing of Joss.
fade2dust | March 05, 17:09 CET
For all we know this Kuzui thing really is true and the real reason why Whedon isn't doing television anymore is because the Kuzuis influential friends who got him blackballed. I doubt it, but see? That possibility is now filtering in your brain and looking at other things in your brain to verify its validity. Some will dismiss it. You might be one of them. Others out there won't dismiss it and might even find legitimacy in their own subjective reality. That's how disinformation works.
Read through this thread again. The ones who are looking for validation in this? That's a microcosm of how the media world works, and by proxy the populous at large. It's how Roswell New Mexico became UFO capital of the world. Spooky, eh?
ZachsMind | March 05, 17:33 CET
NekoDono | March 05, 18:24 CET
Some more than others.
SpikeBad | March 05, 18:36 CET
Remember Jack Nicholson got massive royalties from Batman II and he wasn't even in it! That was the deal he made.
It is standard practice in Hollywood for a writer to sell a spec script and thats it. The producer or the studio gets everything. Ownership, sequel rights, merchandising, creative control the lot. That's what they mean by "Buying" a script. It is VERY rare for someone to get a second chance and wrest back some creative control in the way Joss did.
Maybe the Kuzuis are assholes, maybe they're sweet nice people, who knows. There does seem to be some issues here but Joss seems to hold certain actors to blame for things that went wrong with Buffy. Reading that interview it looks like it could have been an inexperienced and overawed director not standing up to strong willed actors and insisting things were done their way.
But if they really do own the right to make a movie, or really think they do, then why havent they done it?
zz9 | March 05, 19:08 CET
That the Kuzuis still cling to their 'vision' is interesting, (and to me, rather deluded) but apart from it being perfectly legal for them to still reap the benefits from Joss, work I personally find it an ugly side to the busines. (Nickolson making millions off Batman II while doing no work for it is just another example for me)
Something that doesn't happen however is a script writer who is hired on a 'work for hire' basis and who is NOT the creator winding up owning most of the property and moving on with it. But then Fran Kuzui has already been quoted as saying she 'found' Buffy and has never once contested Joss' claims of being her creator before (And technically, still hasn't. This article doesn't quote her at all.)
Right. After 8 years of doing absolutely nothing to stop Joss and actually getting paid nicely as a result of his success. That makes sense.
Well any information that one reads is always filtered and tested on it's validity when compared to existing knowledge. And in this case this possibility is very easily discarded as drivel. And not because I'm a Joss fan and will "stand by him no matter what" or some nonsense like that, but because it doesn't gel with numerous facts of Buffy's history, the aspects of the business and the public statements of the people involved.
EdDantes | March 05, 20:23 CET
I wonder though how it would fit in with Fray...
Watcher's Pet | March 05, 20:46 CET
And this guy so clearly doesn't get it, he had a male slayer in his Angel script, and now here it is again, by saying that that's what the second Buffy movie would have been about.
Because the movie was a failure, a flop. The only guaranteed audience for a Buffy movie are the fans of the show, and they know that if we found out that the movie was going to be a sequel to a movie that even the biggest fans (for the most part) of the TV series don't like, we wouldn't be best pleased, and we'd do our best to let people know that it wasn't a movie of an excellent TV series, but a sequel to a poor movie. It just doesn't make sense to make a movie that would mostly appeal to a very loyal fanbase, that would continue from a 90 minute movie, rather than 8 years of plot and character development.
[ edited by Ghost Spike on 2005-03-06 04:03 ]
Ghost Spike | March 05, 20:52 CET
Firefly Flanatic | March 05, 22:40 CET
Airawyn | March 06, 00:13 CET
Cider | March 06, 10:26 CET
That's why you hear writers howl so often about what happens to their projects post facto...they have no control. If Joss retained exclusive rights, I would be very surprised. A lot of writers become directors so the vision can be maintained and copyright retained.
If he negotiated for the rights for the TV show why wouldn't the Kuzuis say yes? The key is...did he obtain exclusive rights to Buffy The Vampire Slayer when he proposed the TV show. Or did he obtain PERMISSION? That's the difference. And why wouldn't the Kuzuis say yes? If they didn't sell--it wouldn't infringe on their copyright and it would mean more money in their pockets.
And a project could be coming forward now because they recognize the timing. There is a Buffy void and while Joss is busy doing other things and the market still seems keen for more stories, somebody might be seeing a Bonanza. And it seems they have put some thought into how to develop and progress the theme in a way that might appeal to the market.
The storyline they propose would move Buffy from old world view to new. From royal dynasty to tolerance and a self created world. From a feudal state to democracy...this is the hoped for progression in our world. Very, very interesting timing for an interesting premise.
I'm not saying this is real...but it is possible. If they stay away from all the characters created by Joss...I can see how this might not infringe on Mutant Enemy's copyright.
And if this is disinformation; somebody went to a lot of trouble. And remember disinformation is also a means to test the water for similiar projects. Hook into the vibe and get the public reaction from fans.
Joss may have created Buffy...but he may not hold exclusive rights.
It may not be real...but it is possible.
BforBeth | March 06, 10:35 CET
The truth is that anyone who likes the show already does so because they like Joss' version, characters, backstory, mythology and all, therefore they aren't going to care about another version just because it happens to have the same name. Those people that don't care about Buffy the Vampire Slayer already most likely aren't going to be into the new version either.
So i say, if this story has even the tiniest amount of truth about it and they do have the right to use the basic concept, let them do what they want. Let them waste their time, money and effort on creating this new version that nobody will want to watch. It won't effect our love of the one, true version now will it?
The Arcane | March 06, 12:06 CET
Ilana | March 06, 12:35 CET
Per his "About Us" page:
This is nothing more than a "controversial" way for him to make waves. His victim of choice has been Joss Whedon and Joss's still loyal-fanbase. It started with the Wonder Woman stories, then he probably checked his referrer reports and realized he could make waves by continuing to focus on Joss.
Consider this thread. There's 58 posts here, and all the other sites that tend to follow Whedonesque's cue have picked up the story and there's multiple posts in those threads as well.
So, again, the mere fact that a handful of people are thinking, "Well, what if," has made this a success for O'Sullivan. I predict more fables from his site in the future.
[ edited by J.Monique on 2005-03-06 20:02 ]
J.Monique | March 06, 13:00 CET
We all know who was the real creator of Buffy and the guy in question knows that we know. That is all that matters.
The Arcane | March 06, 14:43 CET
No wonder he's desperate for attention.
Going by how much info can be found on his IMDB biography page, as compared to how little work he's actually done, I'm thinking that he's probably updating it himself.
Gonnas | March 06, 15:04 CET
Of course given O'Sullivan isn't currently member of the WGA either, one must wonder both how he could consult his WGA manual, and even more importantly what studio heard his pitch. Certainly it wasn't Fox, or anyone else that wished to employ a WGA writer in the future.
[ edited by Ocipital on 2005-03-06 22:09 ]
Ocipital | March 06, 15:08 CET
I know that he was approached by Fox to write for the series more as an act of courtesy, where he was expected to pass the offer to another writer. I don't think it was Joss pitching the Buffy series to the WB in the first place ...
So, instead of screaming and yelling how evil O'Sullivan is, it would certainly be of some help if the people in the know could try to shed some light on the Buffy copyright issues.
Who owns what and why and which roles play Fox, the WB, the Kuzuis, Sandollar, Joss, ME ...?
TIA, PTTP
[ edited by PowerToThePeople on 2005-03-07 00:48 ]
Udo Schmitz | March 06, 17:22 CET
I'm beginning to wish I had deleted this thread in the first place. Ah well. More fool me.
Simon | March 06, 17:41 CET
So my guess is a studio own the ultimate rights to Buffy Summers, Joss did a deal giving him creative control and the Kuzuis excercised some clause they had over sequels or spin offs and settled for a producer credit and some royalties in return for letting it happen.
Its always been known that the TV series was based on the "Original" movie script and not the changed version the Kuzuis, and some actors, ended up making. This would make it easier to say they do not owe them any credit or royalties. Had the Kuzuis created a character in the movie and Joss wanted to have that character on the show they would have had to pay for the right to use that character.
I have my doubts about the point of this sort of publicity for this writer/director/producer. He could fool millions of people in cyberspace but if he wants to get finance for movies it's what the studio suits think that matters, and they sure as hell wont fall for this crap. He's trying to impress the wrong people.
And Simon, as a respected, informed, website hopefully people will come here to check these things out. Better they see it and read the evidence instead of falling for it hook line and sinker.
Leave it up and rationialy debunk it.
Additionial: The one big movie project that they have completed, according to their website, stars "Brian Heffron (from "National Lampoon's Dorm Daze 2: Semester at Sea")." Didn't I see him at the Oscars? (No.)
[ edited by zz9 on 2005-03-07 00:58 ]
zz9 | March 06, 17:50 CET
That recently added update on the linked article has only gone to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that this guy is making it up as he goes along. Half truths distorted into his own version of reality, he should write for a British tabloid.
The Arcane | March 06, 18:11 CET
zz9 | March 06, 19:06 CET
kylie | March 06, 21:00 CET
Which, btw, is how the government sometimes works. :-)
Dana5140 | March 06, 22:40 CET
Firefly Flanatic | March 06, 22:44 CET
1) The Buffy movie is worst than the worst thing in the word
2) Joss vision of the Buffy universe, with the characters, vampires, demons, relationships, more, more and more are way better, way cool, way... Joss than the movie
3) SMG did the Buffy as ED did Faith. They are a fact. That Swanson girl was just a stone in the way
4) Why don't do a slayer thing in the future like they did with batman or spiderman? They could talk about a famous slayer named Buffy and not put Buffy in there.
5) Ok... so Buffy will rise in a world were vampires and demons and humans get together. SO? Will we have a slayer who don't slay?!
6) Even if they have the rights to do a new Buffy, I don't think that they would do anything near the time that Joss used. It was the time that made people so fan of the whole series and Angel. The time to say the right joke (Xander) or the time to be the school girl (miss CC) or the right time to say "hi... I'm gone kiss you, but I have a little secret... I'm a vampire" (Angel) or be strong and kick some ass in the right time (Miss Buffy Anne Summers). All what each one of the characters did IS JOSS! They can't touch it!
Angeluffy | March 07, 01:04 CET