Buffy was cancelled... but it was cancelled by the cast & crew, not by the network

To cancel something is to cross out, to delete - Buffy was cancelled... shows are either active, or have been cancelled - there's no happy medium between the two

aapac | March 06, 05:19 CET

buffy was not canceled !!

It concluded. No one says Fraiser or Friends was canceled, so why say it about Buffy?

eddy | March 06, 05:21 CET

I cannot describe how mad i get when people say that BtVS was cancelled. BtVS ended of its own accord. SMG and Joss chose to end the show, not UPN.
Angel was cancelled. I am not pleased that Angel was cancelled (i have not watched the WB since May 19, 2004), but it was cancelled. Firefly was cancelled. Wonderfalls was cancelled. All these great shows were cancelled. BtVS, on the other hand, was not cancelled. BtVS ended, concluded, resolved, fini, realized, and a thousand other reasons that don't mean a damn cause it's gone.

Dhoffryn | March 06, 05:45 CET

I've read someone say that before, but shows aren't cancelled by cast and crew, they decide to finish them.

Networks cancel shows, because the cast and crew intend to go on and make future seasons, but they're cancelled, if the cast and crew decide it's time to end they don't intend to make future seasons, and so nothing is cancelled.

I'm not actually sure about Frasier I know they knew early enough to give it a proper conclusion, but ratings were down, and I think Kelsey Grammar wanted to continue, I'm not sure if it was cancelled or just finished, everyone says finished though. The last 3 seasons were the final seasons of Friends, season 8 was the last season right through till they were writing the last episode, then they had to come up with a twist (which is probably why that cliffhanger is so bloody stupid), season 9 was only the final season till about Xmas '03 I think. So NBC could have finished Friends at the end of any of these seasons, and it still would have been finished, rather than cancelled.

Anyway, Buffy wasn't cancelled, Joss decided the story was finished and finished the show, I think UPN even wanted an 8th season.

Ghost Spike | March 06, 06:19 CET

Doesn't matter whether the show ended of it's own accord or if the rug was pulled out from under them - cancelled is the term used for any series that is not longer on the air

[ edited by aapac on 2005-03-06 04:52 ]

aapac | March 06, 06:52 CET

Gotta disagree with you Aapac. Eddy's right when comparing Buffy's end to that of Frasier or Friends. Seinfeld also ended on its own, and Everybody Loves Raymond is ending this spring at the choice of the cast and crew.

In short: if a show is ended by the network suits before the cast and crew are done making the series, it's CANCELLED. IF the cast and crew choose to end of their own accord, the series just ends. There's no cancellation involved.

Angel was cancelled. Firefly was cancelled. They were ended when the networks pulled the plug on further financial funding. Buffy was put to an end after SMG and Whedon talked about its future. They agreed to one more season and then they were through. It ended its run. Had they wanted to go for season eight, UPN probably would have agreed. Though the ratings weren't spectacular, it was still one of the most popular shows on that network at the time.

If you still don't understand this subtle but important difference, let me try to explain it this way. The tv series MASH went on for over twice the time that the Korean War itself occurred. It ended when the cast and crew simply had no more stories to tell, and it ended on a powerful note. However, AFTER MASH which was a spinoff of MASH involving three of the supporting players from the original series, that show was cancelled mercifully about halfway through its first and only season.

Similarly, ALL IN THE FAMILY went for a very long time and had the cast and crew wanted to continue it in the fashion they had, the network would have let them go on and on. However, instead most of the cast left, and thus ended the first series by choice of the cast and crew. Carroll O'Connor tried to have a series called ARCHIE BUNKER'S PLACE telling the exploits of Archie Bunker after his wife left him, but that show was terrible and WAS CANCELLED by the network after one season.

X-FILES went for many years and even after the two principal actors stopped appearing regularly, it continued until Chris Carter had finished his conspiracy plot arc to his satisfaction. However, HARSH REALM, MILLENIUM, SPACE ABOVE AND BEYOND and LONE GUNMEN, all shows involving writers or producers or sometimes characters from the X-Files franchise, were cancelled by their respective networks before they could even get their feet wet.

HAPPY DAYS ended. LAVERNE AND SHIRLEY was cancelled. Shall I go on?

ZachsMind | March 06, 07:12 CET

Not always. Most articles don't say that Friends or Frasier were cancelled, they say they "ended their run" or "concluded" or something to that effect, while most articles say that BtVS was cancelled. So it isn't that cancelled is the term always used, it is that the term is improperly over-used.

Dhoffryn | March 06, 07:14 CET

ZachsMind, Edith Bunker didn't 'leave' Archie in the usual sense. She died.

The scene where he finds her slipper under their bed and starts crying is burned into my brain. I think that was the saddest thing I've ever seen on tv.

Willowy | March 06, 08:07 CET

Carroll O'Connor tried to have a series called ARCHIE BUNKER'S PLACE telling the exploits of Archie Bunker after his wife left him, but that show was terrible and WAS CANCELLED by the network after one season.

Just shifting the topic a bit, but I can't help but respond to ZM's tone. If you're going to give examples, ZM, it's much more effective if you get your facts correct.

According to IMDB,"Most of the action took place at Archie's Place, though his wife, Edith, was still seen on occassion [sic]; more frequently seen were his niece, Stephanie Mills[. . . ]. The biggest change came in the fall of 1980, when Edith died suddenly of a stroke (Jean Stapleton had wished to leave the series)." (Willowy beat me to it while I was checking facts!) I don't remember the scene Willowy describes, but I was quite sure Edith didn't leave Archie!

IMDB, again, in regard to AfterMASH, "The series was top-rated during its initial season but was canceled midway through its second when its ratings took a sharp decline."

[ edited by Gaudior on 2005-03-06 06:24 ]

Gaudior | March 06, 08:19 CET

Great. We're arguing semantics now.

Willowy: Jean Stapleton the actress is still very much alive, God bless her. As for the character of Edith, I distinctly remember an episode of Archie Bunker's Place where Jean Stapleton returned as Edith. I don't recall it being a scene where he saw her ghost. She was right there in the room with him and they were talking to one another. However, I wasn't paying attention much. I didn't appreciate All In The Family in first run, cuz I was like less than ten years old. Still, I was led to believe they'd been divorced and that's why the character left. I doubt we'll ever see Archie Bunker's Place on DVD so for all I know you guys are right. I didn't google my information. In my previous ramble I was going off personal memories of watching the TV.

In fact, in hindsight looking over my own rambling, the question of Happy Days' demise is unclear. It may have been cancelled. I may be remembering incorrectly. I'd have to go doublecheck somewhere. Anybody got Garry Marshall's phone number? I recall it going on long after it should have ended. Again, because I actually watched the series as a kid, I didn't bother to factcheck my diatribe above. It came out rather quickly. Though I type 60 words a minute on a good day, I couldn't type as fast as my brain was going.

As for After MASH, Gaudior, I'm looking right at the IMDb page on my other browser just an alt-tab away and I do NOT see what you're seeing. I'm seeing [TV-Series 1983-1984] which is ONE season. They brought in Gary Burghoff to try and save it and even he couldn't, talented bastard that he is. I'm not seeing any reference to it being 'top-rated' I mean I watched it myself. It was a piece of shite. I was really sad too. I wanted that show to do well, but God the dialogue was atrocious! And a VA hospital is just not as interesting as a war.

We're going off the beaten path here though. I was trying to use these other shows as examples of why there's a difference between cancelled and concluded. Y'all are getting lost in semantics.

Lemme try it this way. I know the fate of Star Trek like the back of my hand. There can be no misunderstanding about the following.

From Wikipedia: "Enterprise was cancelled by UPN on February 2, 2005 after a run of four seasons and 98 episodes – the first Trek series since the original Star Trek to have been CANCELLED by its network rather than finished by its producers."

Star Trek the Original Series was CANCELLED by the NBC network. Roddenberry and the cast and crew were willing to go a fourth season but the financial (and metaphorical) rug was pulled out from under them. After almost twenty years of fan support, the series was re-imagined in the form of Star Trek the Next Generation, after a failed attempt to make Star Trek Two which was to be a new series using the original cast. That concept was later reenvisioned as the films Star Trek I through VI.

Star Trek the Next Generation was CONCLUDED by the cast and crew after seven critically-acclaimed and well-rated seasons, in favor of the idea of making motion pictures; Star Trek Generations, First Contact, and so on. The cast and crew made this decision (or more specifically the producers Berman and Braga, in hopes of avoiding further semantic debate), and the producers went on to make new tv series for the UPN network: Deep Space Nine and Voyager, both of which were CONCLUDED and not CANCELLED.

A show can only be CANCELLED prematurely by a network, or whomever is funding the operation. When the cast and crew agree to stop making new episodes, it is NOT cancelled. It simply ends.

Are we clear? Aapac? Anyone? Questions, comments? I'm prepared to bore a hole clear down into the Middle Earth if I must. I mean, I share Dhoffryn's frustration and embitterment that people STILL make this mistake. Buffy was CONCLUDED. Angel and Firefly were CANCELLED. I apologize if my 'tone' has been maleficient in accomplishing the goal of making this point clear.

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2005-03-06 22:47 ]

ZachsMind | March 07, 00:37 CET

Well you don't have to get all shirty about it...

Willowy | March 07, 00:57 CET

That Ice Princess eh? Whooo! Go Michelle!

zz9 | March 07, 02:27 CET

As for After MASH, Gaudior, I'm looking right at the IMDb page on my other browser just an alt-tab away and I do NOT see what you're seeing. I'm seeing [TV-Series 1983-1984] which is ONE season

Click on the Trivia link; that's where I found it. And if you click on guest appearances, you see that they had at least a couple of shows of a second season. In all, they had 30 episodes, which, even for the '80s, sounds like more than one season to me. And there's even a website.

BTW, you're arguing semantics; I'm pointing out facts (well, at least in regard to Jean Stapleton/Edith).

Gaudior | March 07, 03:52 CET

And back to "The Ice Princess" - just saw Michelle interviewd on ET. She looked very enthusiastic about the skating part of the movie (which, apparently, she did much of herself without stunt doubles etc). It is not what I would go and see - not because of quality or anything, just the subject itself, plus it is a tween movie - and none of my children are into ice skating (what with 40 degreeC days and all!). For what it is, it looked OK.

catalyst2 | March 07, 13:06 CET

A show can only be CANCELLED prematurely by a network, or whomever is funding the operation. When the cast and crew agree to stop making new episodes, it is NOT cancelled. It simply ends.

As far as I know, Buffy stopped because SMG wanted to go into the movies. The rest of the cast wanted to continue and there was enough material to continue. I'd call that cancelling too, despite the fact that it was stopped for the right reasons, because without Buffy the rest of the cast and crew the show can't continue. And Joss was looking for many ways to still continue the Buffyverse without her.

Koos | March 07, 14:57 CET

Right, I think all of you need to tone it down a little in this thread and also leave the moderating to us, thanks.

Caroline | March 07, 15:10 CET

umm - The Ice Princess still looked OK......?

catalyst2 | March 07, 16:29 CET

Erm, don't mean to sound rude but I can't see any moderating (by people other than the mods) going on in this thread, just a debate about whether or not the term "cancelled" applys to Buffy, which, it doesn't.

Ghost Spike | March 07, 17:12 CET

Thanks ZachsMind, you just improved my day with your little rant, definately brought a smile to my face at least.

Anyway, just to add my opinion, ZachsMind and the others who agreed are correct. Buffy ended by the choice of both Joss and Sarah despite being given the chance to continue by UPN. That isn't a cancellation, that is a conclusion. Any article that refers to Buffy, or any show that ends on it's own terms, as cancelled is using the word incorrectly, regardless of how often it happens.

Kaine | March 07, 17:35 CET