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Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"We have to astonish them."
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March 11 2005

Save One Show? How About Resurrect a Whole Universe! Remember that call for fans to vote to Bring Back the Whedonverse in Kristen's Save Our Show Poll? Well, you guys voted and she noticed! Oh, and news about James Marsters too.

Outstanding news, killinj, and good find. Wow! 20,000 write ins demanding the return of Jossverse. This news just made my week. For E-Online, that's a very impressive number of replies. My only hope is that the network's CEOs also reads this article and take note.
Okay! My three (maybe four) e-mails made a difference! Cool!

Seriously, this is good news, if for no other reason than it gets people talking about Buffy and Angel again when things had started to go a little quiet.

To be fair to Joss, i can perfectly understand why he wouldn't comment at this time. How many different ways can he say that there is curently nothing in development? It's not like we expected the guy to have a secretly planned show awaiting production just in case something like this occured.

The important thing here is to use this opportunity to keep the slayerverse torch lit. This little poll will probably seem inconsequential to some of you, and on it's own it would be, but this kind of thing is cumulative and this might snowball into a network or channel actually realising that getting behind a whole new slayerverse show would be a good idea. If said channel then contacted Joss with an offer i doubt he would turn it down without some serious thought.

What have we got to lose? Get voting people! :)
I voted for the Illyria spin-off, but I'll go for anything.
I voted for a Faith, Illyria, and Spike spinoff. I think that at this point, they're the most willing and available (other than Amy?) and probably the most appealing to fans. I know that Joss is really busy with Serenity and everything but PLEASE do not let the verse die. I'm really, really hoping that something's done soon before it's too late.
I'll take anything, but I voted for Faith. Illyria would be second choice, with the Spike rounding out at bottom last of all the characters. There goes my Spike spin-off hatred. Love the character, just don't want him to have his own spin-off.
Have to chime in to say, congratulations everybody. Don't know what, if anything, such things can lead to, but it was a great effort, and a good result.

And I voted for Giles.
Ah, the 'Ripper'. Joss' stories could go anywhere. At this point, I just want a Joss story. Guess I don't need to explain that need in this room, I want an interesting story I can wrap my brain around. Something that has sense and meaning. I just want a good storyteller. Joss, that means you.....
This is such great news! I've been sick all week (I curse you strep throat), but now I'm so perky I can't stand it (me). I voted for Spike, Illyria, then a third time for Faith. I wonder if she will be looking at total number of votes or a percentage. Just curious. I know IF Joss decides to do a spin off or film it will be wonderful because, come on it's Joss, no matter WHO the characters are.
How can you just vote for one of them?!!!
BufSlyAngel, I'm with you...I can't vote for one,
or three...
I want them all!
If Joss wants to write about Dawn it is okay with me!
I have voted for Spike, but I'm going back to vote for
(I'd better get busy)
OK, made me feel guilty. I went back and voted for Giles, Connor, the trio, and Willow. I feel better. My husband just called me a "total dork". But I don't care. Hey, at least I have passion for something.
I voted for Illyria, Wesley, Giles, and Spike.
I voted for Wesley. My ideal spin-off would be Wes, Illyria, and Spike.
I voted for Illyria but I agree with ShotgunWes on Illyria, Wes and Spike being an ideal spin-off. There should've been an option for more than one character, with at least three being a choice. Of course if BtVS and AtS were just renewed I'd be fine with that!
I voted for Spike. But if I were to vote again it'd be for Giles. And again for Willow.
I wrote a long drawn out email to Kristin that she may or may not read, and I won't copypaste the whole thing here, but I will put here how I ended it:

"...whether others vote for Spike or Faith or even Connor, what we are all really voting for is one name. We each want a continuation of Joss Whedon's vision. Not someone else's vision of what Whedon's world can be. Regardless of which character spearheaded a WhedonVerse series, on some production level, Joss Whedon himself would need to be at the helm. Otherwise, all this pipedreaming is nothing but smoke."

Oh. And I DIDN'T vote in the poll. I don't want any one single name. I want an ensemble of characters, some from Buffy/Angel and some entirely new. I don't care if it's Giles or Willow or Ilyria or Oz who gets top billing. An ensemble of any three (minimum) characters coupled with new blood, and periodic special guest appearances from other familiar faces... I think that's the only real answer here. That's the only real way to continue. Whedon writes ensemble works. No one character in his writing is an island.

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2005-03-12 09:07 ]
ZachsMind, i get your point about the ideal situation being an ensemble show. I would actually like the title of the next series to be a team name so that the show's continuation was not linked to the inclusion of one specific character. That was the millstone around the necks of both Sarah and David as they had to remain for the show to continue. A team based series would allow for a total rotation of cast members, maybe to the extent it is seen in the X-Men comics. Don't know how practical that is in television, what with contracts and all, but it would be very original to watch.

However you should still put your votes in, even if you vote for everyone on the list out of principal. Every vote will be an additional show of support and dedication and can only help in the long run. Not voting won't prove your point, well, not unless we know for a fact that Joss is going to be reading this thread, which he hopefully will.

Oh, and i hope everyone is taking Kristin's advice and letting all their slayerverse addicted friends know about this. I've already emailed everyone i know who enjoyed the series and wants to see more from the slayerverse.
I'm with all of you on this. Just something of this universe to continue. Helmed by Joss, it has to be done by him. I just don't understand why the networks are taking such a longtime to realize what they are missing? Maybe there are some contractual things preventing another network picking up the verse? Or perhaps Joss is hesitant to undertake any new major projects until the release and success of Serenity; then negotiations may start? I just really do hope something gets done. I don't care who stars in it, I would prefer ensemble also, just let it happen already!
20,000?!! that's amazing!
The vote really isn't that smart, as it doesn't include a ensemble of characters.
Faith is popular, Joss has menstioned his taste for a Faith series, so Faith and Spike seem the top draw, everybody else is background noise, but important as well.
If the person (or group) you want to vote for isn't on the list Kristen said you could email her - so if you want an ensemble - VOTE for an ensemble!

I'm still stunned that 19,999 other people didn't think that voting to Bring Back the Whedoverse was that silly an idea after all. Some worried that it would take away from the shows who were on her Save Our Show poll, but I really felt that at best it would give the 'Verse some publicity. To get that many votes a year after a show is cancelled definately shows that we will Not Fade Away.

Now that we have our very own poll: vote, Vote, VOTE!
To be honest, regardless of the fact that Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Angel were both named after an individual, they clearly were ensemble shows right from the start.

Other than the issue i mentioned before of one star in particular being an integral part of the series and therefore being forced to stay on for the length of the show's run, i can't see the fact that a show is named after an individual character stopping a new series being just as ensemble based. With a Whedon series that kinda goes without saying.

Truthfully though, i seriously doubt this poll will determine exactly what spinoff happens, if any at all. For example, if Faith comes out on top it would still need Eliza to want to sign up. With that in mind, don't worry too much about the specifics of who you vote for and why. Just vote! What matters here is numbers, not details. That will come later, when, and if, anything happens because of this.
OK people, just quit your bitching and vote for your favorite character. Now, take a step back and eyeball the subject you just voted on. Is it sinking in yet?

The whole point is that we just made an impact statement. We want Joss back on the air waves. Remember that whole supply & demand thing they taught you in high school? That's in work here. A major media outlet has heard our cries and, hopefully, this will filter down to a network. I better stop here before I ramble.

Once again, excellent say, ZachsMind. Your idea to go straight to the source was wonderful and I loved your message to Kristen. Very good.

With that, I'm calling it a night. Take care, good people.
I voted for Faith....but I really want Buffy or Angel.
They could call it D'Hoffryn the Series. If Andy Umberger couldn't perform the role, there's so much makeup and costuming involved they could even put Danny Strong in the role. Give him stilts of course... Who'd know?

I don't want Buffy or Angel to come back. They each had their proverbial day in the sun. Have someone in the new show make a remark in passing that Buffy's lost her Slayer Powers, Angel's lost his vampire powers, they're both completely normal humans now, and The Immortal realized both of them truly loved one another so he got those crazy kids together to iron out their differences and The Immortal was even their best man at a wedding in the Vatican. The Pope wanted to marry them himself, but he had the sniffles, so some Cardinal stepped in. It was a beautiful ceremony and now Buffy and Angel are in some french chateau happily growing old together. Oh. And they now have a pet dragon named Spot. They live happily ever after, and are otherwise completely boring and unimportant so the real action and suspense and drama and humor and All Things Whedon can take place with those two completely out of the picture and far far away.

Willow sends them a box of cookies every year on their anniversary.
I voted for Faith twice and will be going back to vote for Illyria
ZachsMind... that is great. I need that, right there...then I can move on in the Buffy/Angel world.

Anyone else think a trio thing would be hilarious?

Death never stopped the X-men, and it sure as hell hasn't stopped anyone in Jossverse. It's like Marvel Death.
Zachs Mind...I love your Buffy/Angel concept! I'd even watch that! Twenty thousand of us...we still have a voice, and we're using it
I've voted, I've emailed, and I'm not fading away either! Yay Whedonverse!
"Anyone else think a trio thing would be hilarious?"

I think a show featuring the actors that made up the Trio would be great. It wouldn't necessarily have to take place in the BuffyVerse though. I'd want them playing entirely new characters, without the baggage of Buffy & Angel. I mean, two of the trio are technically dead now. It'd be possible to write them back to life, but the baggage is just unfun. Too much water under their accumulative bridge. The Andrew we saw at the end of Angel isn't the same one The First psyched out at the end of Buffy, y'know? I mean he's the same guy but.. I don't think a reunion of those three would be cool, and any new audience such a series would try to get would just completely have no idea what's going on.

This wouldn't necessarily have to be a Whedon vehicle. Espenson would be best at the helm of this one. I think it'd be nice to do something with Strong, Lenk and Busch where they are private investigators of strange phenomena. Sort of like what The Lone Gunmen wanted to be, but with a JaneEspensonesque sensibility instead of the Chris Carter disjointedness that his short-lived spin-off had. Busch, Lenk and Strong have a great comic chemistry between the three of them. With rapier sharp wit and fast dialogue, they could hold an hour long comedy drama thing with no problem. Has anyone ever seen the movie "Sneakers" with Portier, Redford, Ackroyd, Phoenix, etc? Great film. Something along those lines but with a bend towards the supernatural. Busch would play the fast-talker who tries to get paying gigs for the gang. Strong would be a functioning sufferer of multiple personality disorder who has a confident personality and a cowardly personality which flip flop at the drop of a hat, and also is a conduit for dead spirits but the other two don't figure this out until the end of the pilot episode, and don't want to believe it until the first season's finale at which point they have to. The overall plot arc would centralize around Strong. Lenk would be the conspiracy theorist with an answer to any question that rarely actually answers the question but does make one wonder about the authenticity of the Apollo moon landings or whether or not Prince Charles is human, et. al.

They'd have to be careful not to be GhostBusters, but hey if they were compared to GhostBusters that wouldn't be a bad thing. There was a failed movie called Second Sight some years ago, with John Larroquette, Bronson Pinchot and Stuart Pankin. I think if they ended up compared to that film it'd be worse than if they were compared to GhostBusters, but we're talking something along those lines.

Does anyone have Jane Espenson's number? She's really got the voice to make something like this work.
Is it wrong to have voted for Wesley..... 37 times? :)
20,000, even allowing for duplicates, that is just staggering. And it allows me to say again: forget waiting around for TV, do something direct to DVD. Anything, I donít really care what it is or who is in it. Could be continuation of the slayerverse, could be something new. As long as Whedon writes. The demand is there. You know it would sell. Firefly got up into the top 10 sales chart on Amazon UK again this week.

For crying out loud, all the stupid films and series that get financed Ė this is a bloody winner from the word go.

Although, if we are asking for big shiny things, I still want a big Angel feature film more than just about anything. Except for world peace and to be two dress sizes smaller. Not necessarily in that order.
ShotgunWes: I applaud you!
I am dying for Wesley to be brought back to life.
I even have the story line:
his Father raises him from the dead as 'zombie Wesley'
(his Dad always was a controlling respressive Dad)
And Zombie Wesley is dangerous and indestructable...
in fact he kills his father/creator...
so they send Illyria to kill him
but she has too many of Fred's memories and can't/won't do it.
So she restrains him and sends for Willow, to 'fix' him!

Willow brings Wesley's soul back, but he is still strong,
and Wesley and Illyria become a really bad-@ss fighting team.
Zachsmind. That is beautiful and is exactly what I want from Buffy/Angel. some freaking closure. If that happened I would be painting billboards with Spike's face and fronting the Save Spike campaign. But I'm just not ecstatic about a new character show when we didn't even get a proper finish of A:tS. I love NFA and all but you know what I mean.
I'm not interested in the Buffy/Angel ship and would rather not see it. As far as I'm concerned they got closure. To me, both vampires are just fine standing on their own. Besides, somehow "they lived happily ever after" doesn't *feel* like Joss to me.

I'd love to see a big Angel feature film and have the whole gang fighting the good fight one more time. However, I love the way Angel ended, so if we don't get a movie I'm at least content that the show ended well - even if it ended too early.

The shows had such great ensemble characters and I'd like to see their stories continue. There's great potential there for all sorts of stories.
This is such a good news. I voted Spike but Faith (how about both!!!) would be fine too :-)

As I have said before I honestly do not care WHO they build a show around, I'll watch a Mr. Pee-Pee show!
My solution to writing Wesley back to life is far more simple, Embers.

Ilyria didn't check his pulse. Wes wanted her to think he was dead, but he had obviously prepared for the meeting with that old demony guy. He may have even counted on Ilyria finishing her duties early and coming by to back him up. After she leaves, Wesley sits up painfully, mutters some mystic gibberish, and heals himself up enough to drag his sorry butt to a hospital.

Another possibility would be to dismiss the assumption that Lorne lived up to his threat of leaving the gang. Where's he gonna go? So Lorne walks off, thinks twice, then goes to see how Wes is doing. Lorne saunters in five seconds after Ilyria rushes off, sees Wesley, and carries his carcass to a friend of his who owes him a favor. Easy-peasy.

I also refuse to accept that Gunn died in that alley. Way too many ways to write oneself out of that corner. The most obvious is to dismiss the assumption we all made that all those shadowy figures running towards Angel and the Fang Gang were there to kill them. More probable they were all just running away from the dragon and the Fang Gang just happened to be in the way. Angel slays the dragon, Spike & Ilyria carry Gunn to a nearby emergency ward, case closed.

I mean the Fang Gang killed all the bosses that would have ordered the shadowy minions to kill them in the first place. To my thinking, they'd be congratulating Angel and not trying to kill him.
Yes I'm sure we'd all like another ensemble but that's hardly the point of this poll. The main point of this poll is to show how many people are still interested in the Whedonverse and which characters in particular. If a Spike or a Giles wins, that doesn't mean it's going to be just them in a spinoff or movie, is it? So the only thing that not voting accomplishes is that there's a smaller amount of voices heard on the whole Whedonverse topic to begin with. Don't really see the point in that, especially if you want the 'verse resurrected.

I do think giving us two or three options would've been better but it is what it is. Personally I'd say Spike-Faith-Giles-Willow when it comes to someone being a 'main' guy. (Don't think Wesley would be resurrected. That death meant too much to Joss) As for who else should be in there with one of those, well pretty much anyone except Connor or Kennedy. And well, since Angel S5 I don't even mind Connor that much anymore.

Thing is, anything of this universe I'll watch. So let's show it and drive the numbers up. Not just of a Spike or a Faith but of the entire poll.
I think that's a very good scenario, ZM, about them all running to congratulate them and not kill them. That also seems like something Joss would do. The opening scenes would be them getting charged at by these creatures and demons who, just as they arrive start cheering, the scene then cuts to our heroes, all in a stance to fight but with confused looks on their faces.

And I've said all along that Illyria could always use that gizmo on herself that took away most of her powers to return her powers temporarily where she then does the time warp so she can arrive in time to save Wesley. Lots of ways out of it and Joss has proven many times how he can surprise us. And hey, no one said that Illyria was a doctor. Maybe she just thinks Wesley was dead and I've always felt that her comment about Gunn was more that he wouldn't have the strength to keep fighting for long, not necessarily that he was going to be dead soon.

And, yes, I voted for Illyria but I would be thrilled with any combination of characters in a new series. I've always wanted the Ripper series but that just seems like it is never going to happen.
All the "bad guys" running away from the dragon reminds me of the end of the Wizard of Oz when the Wicked Witch of West's minions look as though they are going to attack Dorothy and her pals but instead celebrate that the witch is dead.
I like Buffy and Angel in a French Chateau but I think their pet dragon is called Puff.
I voted for Spike but ZachsMind is right - I am really voting for the one name that isn't there - Joss'.
ZachsMind, i had come up with a similar scenario to you regarding how they could have continued after Not Fade Away. In my version however, the demon horde wasn't looking to congratulate the Fang Gang, they were there to be led by them.

It was mentioned earlier in the episode that Sebassis controlled a substantial demon army and it would seem likely that these demons were probably it. Maybe Angel had automatically gained control of them when he arranged the death of Sebassis. It's a definate possibility at least.

EdDantes, nice to see that somebody else is seeing this as the opportunity i'm viewing it as. What is important is getting the slayerverse in the spotlight again at this point, who gets the lead of the next show is irrelevant, at least until we know for a fact that there could even be one to lead.
You're not limited to the characters listed in the poll. You can vote by emailing Kristen, so you can vote for a combination of characters if you want or a character that isn't on the list. So show that you're still interested in the Whedonverse and list which characters in particular.
Ok, taking a little from each of the above to explain Wes not dying and adding it to a scenario of my own: Illyria and Company survive, they go back to find Wesley is just barely alive, and about to really die. However, during the fight, something had re-awakened in Illyria--the 'rush' of fighting demons again!--and at the moment Wesley dies, she captures his soul and resurrects him as her first acolyte/worshiper/slave so that he can help her establish her new realm.

Season 6 would see Wesley tormented by what he has become: A souless unwilling slave to Illyria, who he cannot hate because she still inhabits Fred's body; ostracized again from the only friends that he ever had.
I think it is great that so many people showed that there still is a fan base for the Buffyverse/Whedonverse whatever you want to call it. I think this will maybe show the people at the WB or any other network that we wont go away and we wont forget what they did to a great show. I mean look at what the WB tried to replace Angel with the ratings were horrible. Anyway my vote would be for Wesley although he dead I just feel that his character was one of the best characters on TV. The way he went from bumbling watcher to become "Shotgun Wes" to steal the name from one of the Whedonesque members was amazing.
Krall the Conqueror - you are correct. I've said it once, and I'll say it again....Wesley is the BEST character in the Whedonverse. Hands down. I couldn't think of any way to bring him back until I read ZachsMind's post. What interesting ideas! I'll go vote for him too. ZachsMind, what about this idea...Angel turns around and Faith is leading hundreds of slayers towards them and the demon army to join the fight. Apparently Wesley had called Giles earlier and sent the super quick jets for them. Somehow Giles finds Wesley since Wesley told him all about his plan, and magically saves him. Since we're reaching, thought I would reach a little too.

I agree with Lioness - the ONLY name I care about is Joss! That is all I need.
EdDantes: what did you mean by:

[Wes'] death meant too much to Joss

I do not recall Joss' feelings on the matter.

ZachsMind: after reading all the scenarios you came up with, i'm thinking that you sold yourself short in the Willow/Tara e-comic thread short regarding fan fiction.
in short, i greatly enjoyed your ideas.
A Wes and Faith series would be the best possible spinoff, with guest appearances by Illyaria, Spike and Giles.

I'm glad that so many people emailed Kristin. Hopefully this sends a clear message to all necessary parties that there is continuing interest in the Whedonverse and we'll eventually get a tv movie or spinoff.
Wes is probably my favorite....but he and the Angel crew were involved in a war......and in wars people die.


What about...humm..what's her name. "Electric-girl" I think she could be VERY interesting in that her powers have NOTHING to do with Vampires, Demons, magic or the occult. She is kind of what Dr. Strange is in the Marvel universe....if you see what I mean..
"I do not recall Joss' feelings on the matter."

Joss has said several times that Wesley was his favorite character on Angel and that it was a big decision for him but because of that, and the whole Fred/Illyria thing, it was also the most meaningful death they could show.

As for the entire crowd of demons/'orcs'/monsters and whatnot, every writer including Joss has clearly stated that was meant to be nothing but a big evil army out to destroy them. I mean it's fun to think up ways they survived, but how is it 'more likely' that they're running to 'congratulate' them?? Or even just a crowd that runs away from the dragon and the giant? It's not what was meant. It's clearly an attacking horde. (Charging them with raised swords being a decent indication;-)

"I think that's a very good scenario, ZM, about them all running to congratulate them and not kill them. That also seems like something Joss would do"

Well, probably in the minority here, but I have to respectfully disagree. I think that's about the last thing Joss would do, since it undercuts just about everything they tried to do and say with this episode.

The whole point is that they're facing impossible odds and are basically having a 'Butch and Sundance' ending. Except a lot more meaningful since they willingly chose to face these consequences, unlike Butch and Sundance, who were just unlucky.

Personally I just thought of simpler stuff, the bottleneck setup of the alley being in their favor, bodies piling up, it gets harder to get to them to begin with, Illyria knocks down a wall and during the confusion and the smoke, they escape through a manhole into the sewers, which starts their lives as fugitives. Something like that. They don't need to win that fight to survive and continue their story. I always liked the idea of them going from the top of the world to being 'marked men' so to speak, always having to look over their shoulder.
Sorry to disagree with your disagreeing with me EdDantes, but Warlock was right. I doublechecked the transcript of Not Fade Away, and Sebassis was the guy who led the hordes of demons. Angel was the one who killed Sebassis, so Angel would be his successor. Granted, whoever kills Angel can then claim leadership of said hordes, so he'd have to prove himself in battle. Since he just drank Hamilton, and now had the ancient power of Wolf, Ram and Hart in his veins, I doubt that would be any trouble. Besides, he'd have to get through anyone who tried to block him, cuz Angel wanted that dragon.

We could go ahead and let Wesley die. Sure. Powerful ending to a very well-rounded and matured character. No need to cheapen it. The point is, in the WhedonVerse anything's possible. If Alexis Denisof wanted to join the new project, there's ways to go about accomplishing that. We could also bring back Emma Caulfield, Amber Benson, Danny Strong and anyone else who's ever died in the series. Buffy died and came back at least three times in the course of seven seasons: Prophecy Girl, The Gift/Bargaining and Villians. Buffy flatlined in Villians. Don't argue with me. My point is: anything's possible.

rsfayez, I appreciate your compliments. Still, it's one thing to cook up scenarios. It's a completely different thing to get the voices right, to find that delicate balance between interpersonal relationships, and combine drama with humor with action in that unique recipe for which Joss Whedon and the alumni of Mutant Enemy were so renowned. I mean maybe I can concoct feasible scenarios, but the devil's in the details. Sometimes literally.

I mean take that idea I had above for Lenk, Strong and Busch. Sure. I could probably whip up a pilot teleplay for them. However, the end result would unfortunately be more like a bad episode of that failed series FreakyLinks, and less like something brilliant that Jane Espenson can toss off in the space of time it would take her to drink a pot of coffee. Witty yet conversational and believable repartee is a delicate talent. Just watch Firefly's Shindig or Angel's Room With A View. Wow. That's just, wow!
I think what we have to remember when discussing this is that we now view the end of Not Fade Away in the way that EdDantes describes, as some mythic, supernatural Butch and Sundance scene, where the heroes were possibly about to fight their last battle and sacrifice their lives in the name of all that is good.

However, the only reason we look at it in this way now is because it ended up being the last scene of the entire show, rather than what it was originally written as, the last scene of season five. I think it is fair to say that, had we known that season six would be coming up in a few months, we would have given a lot less importance to what we were seeing. Now it is the ultimate sacrifice of our heroes instead of just "season five cliffhanger".

The point being that the message Joss was attempting to send with what they were doing at the end of Not Fade Away has been amplified by a factor of about one million because of the significance we, the fans, now give it as the final scene of the show. The only thing is that it would have been the same scene (although with Wes there) if the show had been renewed. It's all about perspective.

Obviously, when this was originally written, Joss had planned them a way out. Something was going to happen that allowed them all to walk away (maybe not Gunn but that is far from certain either) and fight another day. Who is to say what that was to be?

EdDantes, your idea about them finding an escape route is equally plausible. Angel chose that location to meet for a reason and nobody will ever convince me that he was ready to give up his life if he could find a possible way out. I am convinced that he drew the horde to that specific spot for a reason, he had a plan, one that we may never know exactly now unfortunately.
Well heres what i would have liked for the sixth season, in terms of relation to the last episode

They would not have all made it out of the alley. Gunn would have died, in more the style of Anya's death, rather than Wesley's. Wesley would have stayed dead, Lorne would have never come back. There could have been a few guest appearances by Alexis Denisof without him returning to his regular role on the series, because although i think its important to keep the character dead, I cant find it in myself to want to say goodbye to him.

A possible scenario on how they would have made it out of the alley: Well, i really dont have one. There are some very valid ideas above, which would definetely work, but for now, im in the dark as to how they got out. I think thats for Joss. All i do is plan the entire premise of the sixth season! All I would have done, is have got Angel, Spike and Illyria out of the alley. I also believe that after all the mayhem, they wuld have gone and retirved Gunn's body from the alley, and Wesleys from Vail's, possibly at the end of the second episode of the season. J August Richards, would then be taken out of the credits, and Seth Green added (Joss revealed that Oz would become a regular in the sixth season with Willow taking a supporting role in several episodes, please correct me if im wrong)

The hordes have taken over L.A. The city is a battle scarred ruined war zone, and Team Angel spend the season trying to take back the night, with various complications and quality hijinks! The fantastic Alyson Hannigan (Now Head Watcher) returns to help in four and five episodes and in the end......well who knows. Team Angel try and claw their way back up to the top, to the demon fighters they once were, but will they make it.....

So anyway, there's my view on the matter
As far as i'm aware the idea was to get Seth Green back in a recurring role at best. Realistically i can't imaging Seth wanting to return full time and so i doubt they had planned for that to be the case. More likely they had planned an arc around him, relating to Nina.

Willow, again to the best of my knowledge, was only returning for a single episode. She was to perform a spell that would have seperated Illyria and Fred into two seperate beings, after which Amy was to play two regular roles in the series, similar to the way Ben Browder played Moya Crichton and Talyn Crichton in season three of Farscape.

Of course, all of these plans also involved having Wesley around so who knows how things will develop now, assuming (and hoping) we see any continuation of the above characters in some form.
I'm sure Joss felt that Tara's death was meaningful as well yet he had plans to bring her back so I don't see why he couldn't do the same with Wesley in some manner as well. We will probably never know what was suppposed to happen but everyone has their own opinions and ideas and a lot of them are really great and it's fun to speculate. No one person is right or wrong because these are just ideas and speculations.
Wow, too many options in that poll. eOnline should figure out how to keep people from voting more than once, then implement that. Makes for a more fair and accurate poll (not that these polls matter much).

I voted for Illyria. Newest main character, least-explored of them, seemed like Joss and the Angel writers would've had the most new things to say and show with someone that unique.

No dead characters being brought back. The Buffyverse has seen enough of it. Anymore and it's getting ridiculous and scarily Marvel comics-like. The two times with Buffy (okay three if you count the flatlining in "Villains") were justified and fitting. But bringing back anyone like Tara or Wesley would cheapen their deaths, there's no getting around that. Sure, the writers might be able to do some interesting, entertaining storylines with dead characters, but I don't think that would justify bringing back just about any of them.

I say that knowing that Joss intended to bring back Tara to give at least one of the couples a completely happy ending, but if that whole thing about Buffy earning a wish and using it to bring back Tara is true, I'm glad he didn't get the opportunity to do so. I'm not sure he would've been able to convince me that Buffy would, in one single episode (or even a two-parter), be able to come to the decision to choose Tara over Joyce. And just Tara coming back to life with a simple wish with no strings attatched...sounds more than a little cheesy.

[ edited by Kris on 2005-03-13 22:40 ]
Seth Green was gonna come back? Damn! There's hope for my OZ THE SERIES yet!

Kris, you talk about "scarily Marvel comics-like" as if it's a bad thing. The repeat returns of Phoenix are some of the best writing ever in the X-Men comic book series, and just what is Whedon doing nowadays? Writing X-Men comics? Creative ressurections are one of Whedon's specialties. Not only is it NOT ridiculous to see Whedon conjure creative ways to save Wesley and Gunn, I'd be disappointed if he didn't at least try.

One thing they've never really explored to my satisfaction is having a regular character be a ghost. We've had vampires and werewolves and witches and even killer robots. Never a good old-fashioned poltergeist. Okay there was that roommate that Cordy had for a few years, but I'm talking a ghost we the audience, and the characters themselves, could actually see.

It woulda been neat if Wesley came back, partially corporeal, but unable to affect the physical world without a lot of effort. Kinda like Spike at the beginning of season five, but with a little more substance. Maybe he'd even aquire poltergeist like abilities like telekinesis or pyrokinesis, that could be fun. We'd still have Wes around for the brainiac moments.

Why doesn't he just die? He's too bad for heaven and too good for hell. The afterlife just doesn't want him. How's that for a twist? I think Denisof woulda pulled that off expertly. Spike woulda had a few snarky comments to make that would cause us to laugh. I think it could be interesting to keep his death meaningful and still have the character around.

Gunn's wound was "mortal" according to the ancient Ilyria, but I bet if they could get him to a hospital he'd survive. Ooh yeah. As cliffhangers go, Whedon's done far worse. There's ways to paint out of this corner.

Like Warlock, I don't see the series finale as an impending doom scenario. It's just a cliffhanger. I see it was supposed to look like doom and gloom, but there's still a hope there in Angel when he says he wants to fight that dragon. There's a twinkle in Boreanaz's eyes.

Angel had no intention of losing that fight. Neither should we.
Very nicely said, ZachsMind.

Just wondering (and hoping one of the mods will be reading this sometime soon) but would it be possible to put a link to this thread on the front page of the site until the 19th of March, when the poll ends?

I'm sure there are still a lot of people that check out Whedonesque who might not have been here over the weekend and it is getting very close to disappearing off the bottom of the page. I wouldn't want to see votes missed because people were not aware of the poll so would a link for the next six or seven days be doable?
I second that, Warlock!
Unforunately it looks like the mods don't, Harmalicious, or that they haven't read my request at least. C'mon mods, check out this thread already! :)

Best thing we can do for now is try keep this on the recent comments page so it doesn't get entirely lost just yet, i guess.
I think it would be cool if they even took a different spin and used new characters.

I want to see some new slayers, that haven't been introduced. Cause Willow's spell had to have an effect on them all (Not to the extreme of Dana though). No more normal life.

They could be like... the power rangers of slayers. A group of fun powerful slayers.

Or maybe that's just me....
Actually, should it get to the point where none of the actors we know and love were available to return to their old roles and Joss was offered the chance to get a new show on the air, i would be more than happy to see an all new cast. In fact in a lot of ways it might even be beneficial. You could still have various old characters showing up from time to time, maybe even becoming regular cast members eventually, but a fresh start with little or no baggage from either Buffy or Angel, beyond the basic mythology obviously, might be the best way to go.
Good idea, Warlock. Interesting take. There should be another link to remind people to vote. I'm sure some people have not seen this link due to the weekend. Please re-post!!! The results should be posted on March 19th. Maybe we have until the 18th?

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