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March 15 2005

Marti Noxon "pretty much counting on not coming back" To Point Pleasant. And the writers are making a season finale that can also serve as a series finale.

At least she's honest.

Has there been any word on when The Inside is going to premiere? I hope they don't shove it to July.

[ edited by eddy on 2005-03-15 20:07 ]
There's no article at that link.
Heres the link caroline

click here
Found the right link, Sci Fi Wire has been screwy of late.

I had high hopes for Point Pleasant, thought it would be the best of the post Whedon shows but it was not meant to be. It had some good points but the cliched soap opera aspects and lack lustre acting overweighed the supernatural elements that were struggling to get noticed.

Boyd was a great character though. He would have been a superb big bad in Angel. Marti and co deserve credit for creating him.
I not really surprised. It looked promising when I saw the first preview. I'll probably tune in for the finale to see how it ends, but other than that.
Yeah Simon, I recently watched the last aired episode. The one with the bus. Boyd is great near the end there when he grabs the one trampy lady by the throat and tells her she's not getting his protection anymore. Best character on the show.

I think the show would've been more successful if they hadn't gone over-board with the soap plotlines. Plus the casting was bad for the most part, I can barely tell the 2 brunette teens from each other. BTVS had great casting, buffy=blonde, willow=red head, cordy=brunette. No confusion.
"The only thing that kills me is that I feel like the show got a lot better as we found what worked and what didn't work"

Hmm. I know these things are hit and miss, but if you start a show surely you have to have a strong idea what it's going to become when you start out?
I may not have given it much of a chance, and as much as I like Marti, but I just couldn't get into this show. I could hardly make it through the pilot and happened to catch the middle of some episode before I just fell asleep and haven't thought twice about it since.

I also had high hopes for this show. I really wanted Marti to have some success outside of the 'verse.

At least she has a sence of humor about it. The line about the sock puppets in her back yard made me chuckle.
BtVS started good, but improved as it went on cause Joss found what worked(B/A relationship, scooby dynamics) and what didn't(moloch). You can't put out a half-assed first episodes, because once the public tunes in if they don't like what they see then they won't be tuning back in. Most people flip out after 10 minutes, I'll give a show at least 4 episodes.
I haven't had a chance to see Point Pleasant yet, but from what I have heard, it isn't great. I noticed that a lot of adverts said it was "made by the creators of Buffy" which is hardly true and seems to be an attempt to cash in on Buffy's success.

It sounds like a cross between Buffy and The OC, but is not as good as either show.
I know they were on different timeslots and days but does anyone know how Point Pleasant performed ratings wise compared to the likes of Tru Calling, Wonderfalls and Firefly?
If Point Pleasant had started out with the dance contest episode (ep #5), Marti might have had a shot. The episode concentrated on Grant Show, downplayed the teen soapiness, and upped the adult-level angst. As it is, we had to suffer through the first four eps, and even loyal Buffistas tuned out in droves. PP was dead meat.

The teen cast, with the exception of Aubrey Dollar, was the show's Achilles Heel. Dull as dishwater, and every time Paula came on screen, you could practically hear another Nielsen family switching to another channel. As executive producer (she had to be there for the casting decisions), Marti has no one to blame but herself.
I'm also not going to pretend to be surprised about this news. I've watched four episodes of the show (well, four and a half actually, one i just couldn't sit all the way through, it was that dull!) and overall i think the best i can say about it is mediocre.

The strange thing is that i can't really tell you why though. It had a lot of the elements that should have made it a great show for me. Marti Noxon, a supernatural theme, a really hot female lead, charismatic bad guy, all good you would think. So what went wrong? I honestly don't know. Something just didn't work for me, that's all i can say.

Hopefully Marti won't be too disappointed and she will try again with a new show very soon. I'd suggest being showrunner for Joss on a Spike series. What better job for her is there? ;)
Well, that's gotta suck.

...
TRY THE BUFFYVERSE, MARTI!
I feel bad for Marti that this didn't work out. I know I certainly wanted it to, but for whatever reason, it just didn't fly. My primary hope for her now is that it's lackluster performance won't prevent her from getting the opportunity to try again in the future with some lessons learned. That, think, would be the real shame here.
Another sore point with the show is the dialogue, sure not every show is suited to whedonesque witty writing. But can you at least give each character their own seperate personality? The lot of them are bland and I'm still not sure if the actors have risen about it yet. The guy who plays the doctor was so much better on Desperate Housewives so I'm gonna have to blame Marti for his bland character.

Jet, I doubt the failure of this show will effect Marti's career. Most tv shows bomb, but the writers continue to get work.

[ edited by eddy on 2005-03-15 21:22 ]
I really liked the concept for the show too.

It probably would have been better, had it been on a different timeslot, and day.

That's like when they put Angel on Sunday night. They wanted to kill the show.
I tried to watch but would have to agree that the dialogue was not there. It seemed like they were building up to something but the actress who played the main character Christine just was not good in my opinion she just didn't pull off. It was like she was holding back I was yelling at the screen "do something" they needed to give us more of her back story
The show seemed so promising until I saw it. I will stick with it to the bitter end for Martiís sake, which might be a little easier now knowing that it will most likely be the last of it. Itís going for a cliffhanger ending? I guess that would have more impact if I cared one whit what happens to any of the characters. I blame the actors and their bad daytime soap melodramatic acting for that. The writing is surprisingly pedestrian, but I think better casting could have given it some sort of life. Iíve never watched a show before where I understood how a writer must feel when actors or a director butchers his or her script. Boyd is the most interesting character (especially in the dance marathon episode) and I think some of that has to do with Grant Show seeming to actually ďget itĒ. Marti says how they went through a process to see what worked and didnít and that says to me she may have been trying to get everyone on the same page tone-wise as well as how the stories were going to develop. I canít believe that Fox wasnít messing about wanting more teen soap when that element just didnít work.
I really, really wanted to like Point Pleasant. I really did.

In my world, Marti would end up running on a Faith/Spike show since Joss probably would be busy with movie projects.
Well - Not surprised about this, I also really wanted to like PP but it didn't keep my attention. I wish the best for Marty.
The actress who plays Christina, I thought was a good actress, when she was being "evil". Krall the Conqueror, I agree with you that the dialogue wasn't the best. I've been noticing that with a lot of shows lately. I guess we got "spoiled" with Buffy and Angel.

Jonas, I agree. We might have a pretty good chance now though. Marti is obviously going to be free, Eliza is free as far as I know, and James wants to do it. I think that would make a Kick @ss show!
BufSlyAngel, I am glad you agree. I bet it could be a Kick @ss show! Bothe Spike and Faith has issues of good vs evil in their history. SOME tv network should be interested, right??
I wish I could know when shows are going to be short-lived, that way I wouldn't have as much of a problem committing to them. I gave up on Pointe Pleasant after the second episode, 'cause I forgot to tape the third and just couldn't be bothered to make that much of an effort to get into a show with such bland acting (there were two or three good talents in there though). I wouldn't mind knowing the ending though, so maybe I'll pick the show back up if I'm home next Thursday. Definitely won't be home this Thursday--St. Paddy's day. Bar. Foamy.
I wish Marti the best but I just couldn't get into this show. I watched 5 or 6 episodes and found weak dialogue, typical storylines, typical characters, and a lead who had the right "look" but just wasn't a good actress. There was one episode that was fairly good (the aforementioned dance marathon) but other than that I thought it was just a flat-out bad show. I hope Marti gets a chance to work on something she really wants to do. This just seemed to be a give-the-networks-what-they-want project. And Ben Edlund? This really felt like something that didn't have his influence at all.

It seems that posters want a Spike AND Faith series as opposed to a Spike or a Faith series. Which would, of course, be fine with me but maybe I'm misreading the vibe.
I'd like to see Spike again. It doesn't matter to me what other characters make up the rest of the ensemble, so Faith or whoever else is fine with me.
Spike and Faith, Spike or Faith, any one of the three options works for me. I have to admit i would choose the former if it were up to me though. The vibe they had in Dirty Girls told me that they would work as a partnership very well. Not neccessarily as a couple, that would be way too predictable, but a couple of really good friends working together, with a little flirting thrown in to spice things up, that would most definately work for me.
I watched the first three episodes and I actually liked it, but I forgot to watch the next episode, so I just quit. I hope it comes out on DVD so I can see the whole series.
I might be okay with Spike in a supporting role, but I wouldn't want him headlining a series or even being the second half of a duo. I just...I've seen enough of Spike. Yes, James Marsters, fantastic actor. Spike? Not so compelling a character after most of Buffy Season 7 and Angel Season 5. Worn out on him. He stole the spotlight while other characters languished (Xander being the prime example, but hell even on Angel, Gunn didn't get as much play as I expected him to after "Home" seemed to set him up for something much grander. We all know that Spike was a requirement of The WB for renewing Angel for Season 5, so I can't help wondering what it would have looked like without him). I loved Buffy Season 6's difficult Buffy/Spike thing, but now I almost regret that they went ahead with that 'cause we had to suffer through a lot of annoying and very often not compelling angst between the characters afterward. Especially when that pretty much became all Spike was about in Season 7, just an utter waste.

I'm not sure about a Faith series. Was a little underwhelmed by what was done with her in the last season of Buffy (Eliza was great as always, I just didn't think the character was all that compelling and necessary to have around after her appearance on Angel), aside from when she basically got voted in as leader over bitchy self-righteous Buffy, that was kinda awesome and hilarious. But yeah, there's a hell of a lot of potential there still...I'm just not sure we need another series that follows a slayer though. Star Trek only needed three shows' worth of focusing on a ship name Enterprise to get stale, and that was with whole new casts too!

Illyria damn it, Illyria! Yeah, I know, not enough star power there, Marsters and Dushku are more likely household names (among the average Buffyverse fan at least).

I'm not holding out hope for anything to happen in the next year or two for the Buffyverse (aside from the comics of course. And possibly the animated series, if it ever gets off the ground and doesn't finally die a permanent death). But it's fun to speculate, even though I think we've almost done that to death at this point when it comes to spin-offs.

[ edited by Kris on 2005-03-16 01:14 ]
Would it be possible for this thread to stay on topic i.e. actually discuss the soon to be cancelled Point Pleasant? It would be appreciated, thank you.
With all due respect, I thought we were trying to tone down the talk about non-Whedon projects (Lost, this)...so I didn't think it'd be so bad to continue driving the discussion in a more on-topic direction (for the overall site's theme).
It's not just fun that we continue to speculate, it's really important too. We all know that Joss checks out this site, as well as others, and every day that goes by where the fans aren't just not losing interest, but instead are actually becoming more and more invested in the slayerverse, will only serve to show Joss that his creation needs to continue. Buffy and Angel, and the fictional universe they inhabit, deserves to continue. Hell, it needs to! It is just too full of potential to end so soon and with so little covered.

I'd actually like to see Illyria in her own show too. I'm biased towards Spike (hero worship does that to ya!) but if that couldn't happen and the more likely Faith show never saw the light of day, then Illyria is definately a good choice also.

In fact, now that Wes is gone, Spike is the closest thing she has to a friend (or pet at least) so if he was to get his own show having Illyria in the cast would not be unwelcome at all.
Oops, sorry Simon, i had started typing that last lot before you posted.

Okay, back on topic then, by all means. ;)
I have no objection to people discussing Spike, Faith etc spinoffs (in their proper context) but I don't want see a thread like this veering off on a tangent.

We do on occasion chat about shows that are run by former Mutant Enemy head honchos. This is one of those times when we chat about Point Pleasant and the implications of its cancellation could mean.

For instance, will The Inside be put in as a subsititute? Is Point Pleasant's soon to be cancellation more evidence that Fox doesn't nurture genre shows (i.e. Firefly, Wonderfalls etc)? Would the show have worked on cable? How much constraints did Fox execs place on Marti in terms of casting and plot. Would a different slot have made a difference? And why greenlight a show when there was such glaring problems with it?
Well, the topic seems to be the Noxon doesn't expect Point Pleasant to come back and judging from the discussion, Whedonesquers agree with her.

Then, what could Noxon do next? Perhaps, she could be a writer in a continuation of the Angelverse. If so, I hope the new series is given a more general name rather than being named after a title character - that way it wouldn't rest so heavily on a single actor's shoulders and if at any point they wanted to leave, they could without the show having to end.

I wish Noxon and all former ME writers the best.
We do on occasion chat about shows that are run by former Mutant Enemy head honchos. This is one of those times when we chat about Point Pleasant and the implications of its cancellation could mean.

A new Buffyverse Spin Off! Hence the discussion about it ;)
Amber and Boyd were great characters and the actors terrific in the roles. I also thought Terry had potential and Judy was really good, too. I was also starting to like Christina, the actress seemed to be finding the core of the character and was able in the latter few epis make her scary and sympathetic.

I love the premise but something was just off. Exposition can be a good thing and PP often felt disjointed and unconnected, plotwise.

But, it was improving and I wish it had a shot at staying on the air.
Well I can't see a SavePointPleasant campaign happening to a large extent but the show will have a decent burial when it gets released on DVD.

And maybe just maybe there will be some interesting Marti Noxon commentary on it. Maybe something akin to the JMS commentary for the Babylon 5 spinoff series 'Crusade' DVD release. I seem to remember reading that Warner Brothers asked for that to be removed for future pressings of the DVD.
I liked the last episode. As I've stated before, I'm not sure if I simply lowered my expectations, but quite a lot happened in the 'bus' episode that kept my interest.

I found it much more interesting than preceding episodes (excluding the 'dance marathon' one...that was pretty good). But a 'must see' series? No. I don't really care if I miss it.

Who knows what FOX will decide? They canceled Firefly!! What do they know?!
I don't think The Inside will be put in as a substitute, but I haven't asked, so grain o' salt me. I'm hoping it premieres in the Fall after a great big honkin' marketing campaign.

Tossing it in that slot as is, with no buzz? Waste of the millions and millions they've spent on this series so far.

As much as I want everyone to see it RIGHT NOW, I want the show to live, and so, a Fall launch would be a better thing.
Dear Kris...my dear.. You've stolen my words.

Maybe Marti can start something different now.
Is Point Pleasant's soon to be cancellation more evidence that Fox doesn't nurture genre shows (i.e. Firefly, Wonderfalls etc)?

Although I'd agree Fox doesn't nurture genre shows, this is more a case of Fox not nurturing bad shows.

Would the show have worked on cable?
If it had been aired in the form it aired on Fox, then no.

How much constraints did Fox execs place on Marti in terms of casting and plot

Don't know. Are a lot of other Fox shows cast and written this badly? There might be something there. Then we can blame Fox.

Would a different slot have made a difference?
Possibly. What slot did you have in mind?


And why greenlight a show when there was such glaring problems with it?

Best summed up by what creepy said. "Who knows what FOX will decide? They canceled Firefly!! What do they know?! "
Anybody here like PP? I kind of do. I mean its getting a little better with every episode I think...its like watching a dinosaur pull itself out of the tar pits. Im sure it will definetely lead to a good/decent ending. I think people need to be more patient with shows these days. Example: Carnivale...very weird and unfocused its first season...season 2, GREAT. Nip/Tuck, season one...a little shaky, season 2 Great. I mean look at Btvs when it started out. Another example would be Tru Calling, with its so-so season and good season finale. I think we just need to be patient with PP.
While I agree that people should be patient beyond the first episode of a new series, I have to say I found the first season of Carnivale to be good, and loved the first season of Buffy.

I never saw one episode of Tru Calling, so I can't speak to that show specifically, but expecting anyone to watch an entire season of mediocre television for a good finale seems a bit much.

I watched 4 or 5 eps of PP. I wanted to like it. I didn't. I wish Marti all the best. Should she be correct about not having a second season, and I think she is, I wish her all the best in her next endeavor.
Tossing my tuppence into the 'wishing Marti well' pot. I'm sad for her that this project appears headed for the chopping block, but I guess it demonstrates the unhappy flipside of working in TV -- that what's inside your head may not make it out of there in any way resembling its wonderfully envisioned, original self.

On paper the concept was appealing to me -- lots of classic-inferring, oogy horror elements that should have sucked all us monster lovers right in -- but execution-wise, not so much with the suckage (except in the, unfortunately, literal sense). Christina was adequate, and often genuinely good, yet I never really came to feel deeply for her, even after giving the show five opportunities to get its hooks in.

What was even more disappointing: With the incredible historical richness of material to draw from, it never sunk its teeth into the occult/mystical/religious subject matter it toyed with; scary places that Buffy didn't often go, with serious "black magick" and conjurations of demons and such (I'm talking Chthulu/Necronomicon-type stuff here, which I was seriously hoping Boyd would be into) never materialized.

The church (which must be the most understated, un-Catholic-feeling Catholic sanctuary I've ever seen -- no prayer candles? No kneelers? No Jesuses everywhere you look?) functioned primarily as pseudo-atmospheric window dressing for character set pieces often having little to do with anything but the most superficial questions of faith and belief. Then, outside of that setting, the storyline spent too much time setting up the boring interactions among dull people of the small town, instead of really dazzling us with Christina's nascent power and potential. Less soap, more scope, that's what I was hoping for.

Too many cliches ran rampant. Explosions have been done a million times on TV and in movies to express repressed anger, and I wanted to see far more creative manifestations of Christina's darker impulses. Instead of having a very believable teenage curiosity driving her to investigate her abilities in private, tempting her, compelling her to play with it, I saw her run away from the only power she knew she had among all those strangers. It did nothing to convince me she actually was at least half the Devil's spawn, anymore than a lighthouse beam shining on her at an opportune moment convinced me otherwise. (It seems like all I can do is complain, doesn't it, but the degree of detail I've put into my kvetching shows how much I wanted it to be good.)

Why PP didn't gel might be explained by FOX tinkering with the grand scheme. Or it might be equal parts faulty TV mechanics and mystery ... some things just don't get to live. Or maybe the idea just couldn't make that leap across the great divide between Marti's brain and the rest of the world. Whatever the case, I hope she gets back up on that horse, dusts herself off, and rides again soon.
I feel terrible for Marti. Too little, too late?

Simon, I recall that the show opened with five million viewers which is well below the radar of FOX. The premier of 'Tru Calling' was 12 million. Sorry, I'm not sure about the opening ratings of 'Firefly'.

I'm at a loss on why Marti failed at this show. She certainly has the talent to write and direct an entertaining tale, she has proven herself time and again. Could it be just a bad storyline? Bad acting from the cast? No plot? Or replaying the same "I can see how this will end from 3 miles away" show.

Whatever the case, I hope Marti finds her vehicle soon.
The big difference between Point Pleasant and Carnivale was that Carnivale had me hooked from the first five minutes. On the other hand i actually had to force myself to watch the first episode of Point Pleasant all the way to the end.

It's absolutely fine to be weird and unfocused if you are also being interesting at the same time.
I think Marti is an excellent writer, with creative ideas. Some of my favorite Buffy episodes were from her hand. But, I'm not so sure if she's capable of running a show. When she did run BtVS, the realm, the characters and stuff were already there. And not everybody liked what she did with BtVS during S6 and S7.
"Simon, I recall that the show opened with five million viewers which is well below the radar of FOX. The premier of 'Tru Calling' was 12 million. Sorry, I'm not sure about the opening ratings of 'Firefly'."

I think your recall is your way off :) Point Pleasant opened with an above the radar 7.0 (over 11 million), TC got less than half, with only a 3.3(4.9 million viewers). The difference is of course that TC premiered against Freinds, whilst PP premiered post American Idol. The second episode of PP was the first to premier in the thursday slot, that got a 3.6, losing nearly half the ratings, third episode garnered a 2.9, fourth a 2.2, it has since recovered slightly to a 2.5. TC's first 4 episodes went 3.3, 2.8, 2.7, 2.9, TC went on to increase its ratings throughout the year hitting a series high of 3.9 on March 25th 2004, when Jason Proestly joined the cast. In the end though the ratings fell from there back down to a 2.9 for what ended up being the series finale

Firefly first 4 faired better at 4.0, 3.6, 3.3, 2.7. It stabalised somewhat at 2.7. Despite this it was Fox's lowest rated show of the year, at 127th out 155 prime time network shows (average 4.48 million viewers). The next worst, The Pulse, did 10% better with an average 4.92 million viewers. Despite this, no show has done better than Firefly in its slot.

edited to add, just realised my ratings data only goes up to May 2nd 2003, for the 2002/3 season, its therefore possible that another Fox show did worse than firefly.

[ edited by Ocipital on 2005-03-16 22:23 ]

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