This site will work and look better in a browser that supports web standards, but it is accessible to any browser or Internet device.

Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"With a lot of hoot and just a lil bit of nanny."
11944 members | you are not logged in | 30 August 2014




Tweet







April 03 2005

Slayage: Number 16. New essays about the Buffyverse. This latest collection features essays about the final Angel season, Dawn and Spike's relationship, James Marsters' performance as Spike and last but not least whether or not Joss Whedon shares the philosophy of Thomas Aquinas.

Thanks for this link. The essay on Spike/James Marsters is just gorgeous.

[ edited by twiggy on 2005-04-03 17:57 ]
Hm, I never looked at that final scene between Illyria!Fred and Wes as Illyria's love for Wesley. I just assumed that Illyria knew it was what Wesley wanted to see and was only a good deed.
Christopher, in his commentary for Not Fade Away, Jeff Bell talks about Illyria's love for Wesley. Extremely poignant stuff. I hate that we won't see this play out as originally planned for Season Six.

Simon, thanks as always for posting the Slayage issues. I'm partway through reading the articles and enjoying them immensely.
Christopher, in his commentary for Not Fade Away, Jeff Bell talks about Illyria's love for Wesley. Extremely poignant stuff. I hate that we won't see this play out as originally planned for Season Six.

This is my biggest regret over the Angel cancellation. I just began watching season 5 on DVD for the first time. Oh, the pain! It's the final farewell to my beloved Angel and Ministers of Grace.

"There will be no Thomas Aquinas at this table."

I'm looking forward to reading these essays. Thanks, Simon.
I assumed Illyria was in love with Wes and if they had been a season 6 ME would have explored Wes's complex feelings for her.

Great essay about Spike/JM.
I know, that tears me up as well. Joss had plans for Wess and Illyria. Wish we could have seen it.
I'm with you on the Willyria front. I'm a Wesley/Illyria/Fred shipper. This was the most beautiful love triangle I've ever seen. I saw that it could have gone many different directions. This is the way the Wesley/Illyria arc of season 6 plays out in my head:

Wesley would resist Illyria "being Fred" for a while, but eventually relent. He would become so broken inside, it just wouldn't matter anymore if he was lied to or not. Being lied to would become his escape.

Illryia would welcome this, change into Fred, and little by little, seduce Wesley. They would make love, but while Illyria was wearing her Fred guise. This, of course, would depress Wesley even more, especially when Illyria went all blue again.

Illyria would watch Wesley while he slept, always as Fred. Illyria became very nostalgic over Fred's memories. Gradually, the real Fred would emerge for brief moments when Illyria was Fredding out. And sometimes when she was in bed with Wesley. Fred is trying to get back to her lover, through Illyria.

Soon after, Wesley uncovers information in Dr. Sparrow's files. Fred's soul was not destroyed after all. It exists inside Illyria. It was just soaked up and buried by Illyria's power. Wesley does research, and discovers a way to bring back Fred. The catch is that in the process of bringing her back, Illyria would be destroyed. He has begun to care for Illyria deeply. Who does he choose?
That takes away from Fred's Death an end with no chance of any type of resurrection
Interesting arc idea, esg. It puts Wesley in a terrifyingly poignant position. Wesley, King of Pain. Poor Wesley.

I have to admit that my own interest would be less with Fred coming back as her separate self and more with developing the new, fascinating hybrid of Illyria-Fred. I'm not sure what Joss would have done in S6, but to me it's more interesting if Fred as an autonomous being is irretrievably gone. All that remains is Illyria-Fred. To the extent that that pieces of Illyria and Fred can be separated from each other in Illyria-Fred's early days of existence during S5, it was particularly moving to me to see Illyria, the God-King of yore, develop feelings of love for Wesley. That was even more moving to me than the idea that Fred herself was coming through to love Wesley when poor Wesley died. It was Illyria being influenced by Fred.

I believe that given enough time (and pain!), Wesley may have fallen in love with Illyria-Fred. But who would the eventual Illyria-Fred be? We only saw the formation and early struggles of this hybrid character to establish herself. Someday, I fantasize, Illyria-Fred might have become fully integrated as, I don't know, Illyred. (heh), a new and fabulous character.

[ edited by phlebotinin on 2005-04-03 22:41 ]
Great link, Simon. I always enjoyed the Slayage articles. I didn't get into the Fred character until Season 5. I found the Wesly/Fred thing a little cut-and-paste but overall it was an excellent season.
Did everyone really believe Dr. Sparrow when he said Fred's soul was destroyed? I mean, what proof did they get? Only Dr. Sparrow's word.

Bringing Fred back would have to be earned. There would have to be pain pain pain. Wesley could have had a happy ending a new beginning, but only if the road there was hard, painful, and tragic. I'm also basing my ideas on an interview with Alexis where he said that Fred would have returned from the dead in season 6, but it would have been with a price. Alexis would have had to choose who he could save, Illyria or Fred. I'm not making that part up.

I think, though, that I may have to agree with phlebotinin's preference for keeping Illyria, and developing her. She was a Fred/Illyria hybrid, and I wanted that to be explored. "The Girl in Question" fascinates me to no end because of the possibilities in Wesley and Illyria's relationship. That was the moment when I wanted Wesley to give into Illyria's seduction. I wanted it to be as painful as possible for Wesley. I am one of the few that loved Illyria from the first time she emerged at the end of "A Hole in the World". And I love "Underneath". Illyria and Wesley are so fascinating together, probably more fascinating than Wesley and Fred. But that's because of Wesley and Fred. And hey, wouldn't it have been cool to get an Illyria episode with her backstory told in flashbacks?

I don't know what's up with me and the Joss pain. I just can't get enough of it. It's funny. When I was spoiled for Wesley's end, I was so pissed, and so upset - but still hoped it wasn't true. And I practiced my LJ post for months, that if Wes died I would scream in my journal, "How dare he! How dare Joss take one of mine!" I was also worried that I wouldn't cry when I saw the scene. But I did. I cried and cried. And then I cried again when I came online to talk about it. And I felt it was the best ending for my tragic hero-and for Angel & MoG.

I just started on Angel season 5 DVDs last night. It's the final farewell to my L.A. heroes. I know I'm gonna cry even more.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-04-03 23:23 ]
ahhh, but that is the beauty of DVDs, electicspacegirl. It is never farewell, it is always hello old friend. sappy, yes, but true.
Ah, but I want the story to continue. And so we have fan fic.
So I wasn't strange in having an interest in Wes/Illyria! I wish more than anything for season 6.
electricspacegirl, you should SO consider making that Wes/Illyria/Fred triangle theory for s6 a fic. But it seems it would take a long time to come up with reasons for Wesley's return, anything post-NFA, etc. Have you given any thought to making your own s6? :)
Wesley worked for WR&H so he'd come back like Lilah.
Maybe Illyria's grief would re-enable her time-shifting powers.
esg:I cried and cried. And then I cried again when I came online to talk about it.

As did I. A forty-something colleague of mine was tucked into bed by her 10 year old daughter (who knows every single line of the songs in OMWF) who said, "Mom, it's just a show"...and she replied, "But it's Wesley!...Wesley...and he's dead..."

She has not been able to watch NFA again.

Bloody hell, how does this stuff do this to us?

A divine madness, is all I can say.

And I too weep for what might have been in a Season Six...downright criminal, it is.
Did everyone really believe Dr. Sparrow when he said Fred's soul was destroyed? I mean, what proof did they get? Only Dr. Sparrow's word.
I believed it absolutely, and still do. The writers were telling us that there would be no resurrection; this death was final. They did the same thing with Tara, and in a weird way with Buffy's mom: Dawn's resurrection attempt ultimately revealed that Mrs. Summers wasn't coming back.

In order for the show to have verisimilitude, in order for us to identify with it, it has to have real death, death that cannot be reversed for any price. When Dr. Sparrow told us in smug triumph that Fred was gone forever, the writers were announcing that this was Joyce's death, not Buffy's death.
Andarcel, I must disagree...Tara's death was totally natural, how horrible that must be, considering that it was a bulle that took her life.

And Joyce was taken naturally, too, and Dawn tried to use hideous magics to bring her back (and did, even though Dawn sensibly retreated at the last moment.)

And, although I always believed Dr. Sparrow, I'm now wondering...why?
Do recall that had Joss and Amber worked out their difference, Tara would have returned in End of Days as a result of Buffy's :Get out of jail free" magic wish, so while her death was final in one sense, it was not in others. AS it turned out, it was final, but that was a result of factors outside the Buffyverse. With Illyria, I do think that bringing Fred back in toto would have made the significance of her death and loss of soul far more meaningless- one of the reasons her death hit us so hard was that very loss of soul, because we know exactly what that means, and so we cannot fathom the pain it causes Wesley.
one of the reasons her death hit us so hard was that very loss of soul, because we know exactly what that means, and so we cannot fathom the pain it causes Wesley.


Oh my Joss ;-) Dana5140, that was so very well-said! Although the specific meaning of the soul in the Buffy/AngelVerse is often unclear, you are absolutely correct in that we all know how serious and utterly final the 'loss of soul' is in the world of these characters and events. I always think back to "Shells" and Alexis' outstanding performance throughout but especially when Illyria despondently remarks, "my world is gone", and his reply "now you know how I feel." Gives me chills every single time.

I've not read these essays yet but I plan to do so now, or very soon from now; I'm sure they're another excellent posting, thanks Simon.
From the Spike and Dawn paper:
Unfortunately, the power to save the world is unrelated to social acceptability...

I love this stuff :)
I really like the hybrid Illyria/Fred persona. In Origin, it seemed like there were some interesting hints at how Fred was coming back. Wesley and Illyria have a whole discussion about reality, identity, and memory and two things seemed significant to me. First, that our memories make us who we are, they are our identity in a very important way. Second, Illyria has all of Fred's memories. In that sense, Illyria is Fred in a very real way.
So, I imagine season 6 as an exploration of this identity, as Illyria accepts and allows Fred's memories to constitute her sense of self.

And the death scene? I always saw it as Illyria's declaration of love for Wesley, I loved using the lie to tell the truth.
I also imagine that the knife that killed Wesley was really mystical, sort of like the sword that demon had in the Buffy season 6 episode based on the BuŮuel movie. So, Wesley's life essence is caught in the knife and they just have to recover and activate it to get him back.

[ edited by Biff Turkle on 2005-04-04 03:35 ]
Biff Turkle, I like your speculation and I can very well see how that could've been the way to go. I also saw the death scene as Illyria loving Wesley and wanting to comfort him and knowing that Fred would be the best way to do that. And I think there are many ways to bring Wesley back (and I personally don't think that cheapens his death - these were smart characters who have done the impossible in the past). So I think if there ever is a continuation of the show whether in movie form or spin-off that there is a chance that Wesley could be back and an Illyria/Fred hybrid is a fascinating way to go with that character.

It really is a shame that Angel was cancelled when it was. I feel it was leading into what could've been it's best arc and best season (and that was following such a great season). The WB should've been aware that it was becoming better and better with each passing episode and had just introduced us to what could've been one of the best Buffyverse characters ever. Illyria had huge storyline potential and maybe even could've been a great spin-off on her own.

I hope that the WB (if they are our only chance at a movie or series) is smart enough to realize what they threw away and take advantage of both the fans and actors from the verse wanting to continue on.
I had hoped Wesley would eventually be so obsessed with trying to understand the ins and outs of what happened to both Illyria and Fred that hitting the books wouldn't be enough. He'd learn about the guy who built the box they originally found Illyria in, and have to travel to some distant place in order to talk to him. The box designer would explain that Illyria's prison was intended to be a trap. If she attempted ever to vacate her prison, her soul would be stripped and random portions placed in the bodies of whomever happened to be near it at the time. This was designed as a failsafe to insure that if she ever attempted to destroy humanity again, she would first become so engrossed in humanity, she'd be forced to see the good within humanity, and would be unable to shake free of the bonds of humanity herself being so intertwined. Therefore she'd give up this foolish notion of destroying humanity.

Since Fred was the only one in the immediate vicinity, most of Illyria ended up in her, but there's wisps and fragments of Illyria's life essence in the souls of other people who had also been in the building at the time it happened. Though she may not have consciously realized it, Illyria was almost powerful enough to attempt escape from Fred, but doing so was threatening to destroy both her and Fred, so the Fang Gang weakened her (Time Bomb) in order to save her from herself. Now she's trapped in this new form and utterly and intrinsically linked to humanity.

The brain doctor said to Gunn that Fred's soul was destroyed when Illyria took over her body, and we and everybody else just accept that as a given but brain doctors who work for Wolfram & Hart aren't precisely trustworthy are they? I believe that Fred & Illyria are inexplicably intertwined. They can't be separated. Doing so would allow the inhumanness of Illyria to go around destroying worlds and stuff. Fred's still a part of Illyria and her innate humanness keeps Illyria in check, making Illyria understand why humanity has a place in the universe and must be preserved at all costs rather than defeated. So in other words, Fred is still alive. She's just not 'just' Fred anymore. She's a hybrid. Illyria is the more prominent and dominating personality, but quietly Fred's really the one in control.
Hm, Biff Turkle, that is actually a very good idea. What would make it even more interesting is if Wesley's essence was somehow funneled into a different body, so him and Illyria would be kindred in that they are trapped in different bodies, and there relationship can go from there. It would be especially interesting if that body was Gunn's, whose dead body would be more >ahem< fresh. Didn't Illyria say she was attracted to Gunn?

Obviously they wouldn't be able to do this on the show, but it would make a decent fan-fic. Fred and Gunn together again, except it's really Illyria and Wesley, so it's not boring.

And who knows, maybe they would be able to do it on the show. J. did once say he was very good at mimicry...
She's a hybrid. Illyria is the more prominent and dominating personality, but quietly Fred's really the one in control.


I really like that idea ZM and that makes a lot of sense to me. It seemed that way when the show ended that Illyria wasn't just seeing Fred's memories, she was feeling them and reacting to them. Remember how joyous she looked when Fred's parent's showed up?

I loved Fred and was sad when she died but I wouldn't have wanted it to be a case where Illyria is killed off to save Fred because the two of them combined is so much more interesting than one of them alone. I do hope we get to see more of this character someday, and hopefully it will be with Wesley too so if they do make a Spike movie it would be nice to involve these two other characters.

I think if there had been a season six we were going to see more and more glimpses of Fred and Illyria would've attributed this to just Fred's memories but at some time Illyria (or Wesley) starts to realize it's more than that. At first Illyria may be alarmed and try to control Fred from coming out but eventually the two learn to share the body. For any of you Stargate SG-1 fans you know they've done a similar thing with two different beings, one a human and one a Troka sharing a body williingly and it is done quite believably. Amy Acker had already shown great versatality in switching from Illyria to Fred seamlessly and believably.
Chris inVirginia, I'm with you. Yes, why did we automatically believe evil doctor guy? hmmmmm. ZachsMind, again your ideas are wonderful. That would be quite interesting if Ms. Burkle was in control of Illyria.

[ edited by Harmalicious on 2005-04-04 04:33 ]
I'm so interested in the way that death works in the Buffyverse. What are the rules here? Buffy dies, brought back by natural means (CPR). Believable. Joyce dies. Angel dies, brought back by... who? The PTB? The first? I need to rewatch Amends. Darla dies, brought back by Wolfram and Hart. Joyce dies of natural causes, brought unsuccessfully back by Dawn, killed/undone. Buffy dies a supernatural death (but it would have been a natural one if the big votexy thing weren't there, she would have fallen to her death), brought back by supernatural means. Tara dies manmade death, remains dead (although WOULD have been brought back by supernatural means). Does Buffy die and get brought back by Dark Willow here? Spike dies, is brought back by supernatural means. Fred dies a supernatural death, but stays around as Illyria. Wesley dies... Who knows? Assorted others die and stay dead or die and only kind of come back or never actually quite die (Jenny Calendar, Doyle, Warren, Jonathan, Anya, Kendra, Cordelia, Connor, etc.)

What rules govern this? Besides, what will have the most emotional impact, I mean. I'm actually glad that Tara didn't come back. I think it would have weakened the impact of her death (and I think that the anti-gun statement of the show would have been weakened). I'm glad that Joyce didn't come back. It made too fantastic a statement about the Slayer's helplessness. But I think that Illyria and Fred being endlessly intertwined is far too interesting to let go. And Wesley was the ideal lens through which to view that. So he had to come back. And it had to be hard won. Maybe if Illyria gave up what remained of Fred to get Wes back? I just want it to be earned. I think that's part of what made me so unhappy with the Kennedy/Willow relationship. Kennedy never earned Willow, and while Willow earned something with her pain, it wasn't a brat like Kennedy. I actually think that Willow and Tara had that True Love thing that Buffy and Angel never did. Or I don't think they did. Wow. So much to talk about here. I love Joss.
Buffy and Angel never had true love? I beg to differ. It was a tragic love story. All tragic love stories are real love. Anyway, getting off subject (come on, I couldn't let that lie), something quite major would have to happen if Wes came back from the dead. No easy fixes here, something MAJOR should earn back his life. I would think Illyria would have to give something up perhaps? Her super strength? Some of Fred? Who knows, but it should be something that won't lessen his death.
i for one believe wes should stay dead, as tara and joyce have. to many people coming back just gets old (to me, it kindof already has in this verse). wes died from a knife so i think hes gone as he should be (some deaths have to be just that, death with no chances of coming back).
But losing Wes permanently would mean losing the Wesley/Illyria dynamic.
I don't see how Tara coming back would have weakened the impact of what her death meant. Tara didn't come back the day after, it would've been long after Willow had suffered tremendously for what she had done. When Buffy died at the end of The Gift I sobbed and I still sob every time I see that episode even knowing that she comes back. Her coming back did not impact the way I feel for the ending of The Gift and the same goes for Angel also coming back too. Those episodes still kill me emotionally and leave me feeling distraught and sad.

I think Wesley coming back wouldn't have been an easy task for him. He was welcoming death and most likely would be relieved by having passed on. But maybe he wouldn't have been. Maybe he would've been so distraught in the afterlife knowing he'd never see Fred there that he just can't move on. Illyria can sense his presense and we all know that she's a God and she can find a way to bring him back if she wanted to, natural death or not. That's just one way, ZM has mentioned many ways in the past, I've thought that it made sense that Illyria finds that gizmo that sapped her strength and reverses it on herself and goes back in time and saves him.

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-04-04 05:41 ]
I always think back to "Shells" and Alexis' outstanding performance throughout but especially when Illyria despondently remarks, "my world is gone", and his reply "now you know how I feel." Gives me chills every single time.

Shells is probably my favorite S5 episode, tied with AHitW and NFA. I love Illyria breaking down over the loss of her world. It's the first time we see her vulnerable. I think that's the scene where I fell in love with her. I felt so bad for her. And then Wes points a gun at her. Poor Wesley. Gah! That scene tears me apart.

And the death scene? I always saw it as Illyria's declaration of love for Wesley, I loved using the lie to tell the truth.


I feel the same way. Illyria really loved Wesley. I believe it was mostly because of her Fred memories.

electricspacegirl, you should SO consider making that Wes/Illyria/Fred triangle theory for s6 a fic. But it seems it would take a long time to come up with reasons for Wesley's return, anything post-NFA, etc. Have you given any thought to making your own s6? :)

I wish I had the attention span. My muse is a flaky thing...I am better at writing ficlets. I have a few in mind for this story. With the debate on whether Fred should return or not, and how torn I am between these two possible endings, I'm not sure where I would go with it. Heh. Maybe I'll write two endings, and the reader can choose the one they prefer. ;)

I do appreciate this discussion. I certainly hope that someday, we can get more of Illyria's story, with flashbacks/fantasies involving Wesley. It just kills me that this story was only beginning when it ended.
Firefly Flanatic, I guess we differ there. Buffy's death at the end of Season Five means almost nothing to me, but her mom's death hits me every time.

Biff Turkle, my problem is that Illyria, while possessing Fred's memories, also possesses an eternity of her own and it's very clear who's driving. Further, in the Buffyverse it is the soul, not the memories, that makes the person. That's the line between vampires and the people they used to be. In fact, the writers have tended to tease us with the paradox of vampires being so close to their human selves and yet so distant. In Illyria, Joss brought this contradiction to a main character. But he's absolutely explicit that this is not Fred, and Fred is gone forever. As WEsley says, the first rule a Watcher learns is never to fall for deception, or words to that effect, and he and Illyria both know that and clearly state that her adopting Fred's appearance and mannerisms is a lie.

Although Fred's death was technically supernatural, it ws played as natural. No being stalked by vampires, no diving into glowing stuff. It oculd just as easily have been a natural disease.

I think bringing Fred back in any form would cheapen the incredible power of Fred's death and Wesley's response into bad soap.

Do recall that had Joss and Amber worked out their difference, Tara would have returned in End of Days as a result of Buffy's :Get out of jail free" magic wish, so while her death was final in one sense, it was not in others.
Could you explain?
I can. Joss had intended to have an episode where Buffy is given a chance to wish for anything she wants. I forget why this would've happened but I'm sure Joss would've made it make sense. He intended for Buffy to spend a lot of time trying to figure out what she wanted and Buffy even asks Willow for advice but Willow wants her to make that decision on her own. Near the end of the show Buffy comes walking into the room with a new pair of shoes and Willow is upset thinking that is what Buffy wished for and Buffy makes a comment like "Silly" and in enters Tara. Okay, I probably got a lot of the details wrong but that is the gist of it. Joss had wanted Amber to come back and play the First Evil in some episodes to torment Willow and apparently Amber didn't want to do that. In the end she was going to come back as Tara for sure. Kennedy would not have been Willow's love interest (I'm not even sure if she would've been a character at all). Willow was going to spend most of the season still being tormented by Tara's death.

Some may argue why Buffy wouldn't have brought back Joyce and I think the answer to that would've been that Buffy was at peace with her mother's death where Willow was still tormented by Tara's murder.
I dunno. Joyce's death hits me WAY harder than Buffy's season 5 death, but that mourning was almost pornographic. They spend an entire episode just dealing with the visceral reality of death. Buffy's is over in a few minutes. Also, Buffy goes there intentionally and has a chance to say goodbye. However, I do believe that in a very real way Buffy Was killed at the end of season 5. She didn't come back the same. We lost the lighthearted Buffy of earlier seasons to her stint in heaven and she never really came back. But Joyce never came back.

I would have loved to see Tara come back. It was what I wanted. But I don't know that it was what the audience needed to see, and I do worry that the vast number of people who return from the dead make Buffyverse deaths lack impact.
I just finished reading the essay addressing James Marsterís interpretation of Spike. Knowing nothing about the acting process, I was riveted by the quotes from James, Joss, and the Buffyverse writers and directors. The complexity of thoughts, words, and actions that resulted in Spike are almost more dynamic than the character himself. Iím awed, again, by Jamesí phenomenal talent and Jossí brilliance, as well as the amazing talent of the writers and directors Joss hired to help bring his unique vision to life. Thank you for the link, Simon - it was truly illuminating!
I think Wesley coming back wouldn't have been an easy task for him. He was welcoming death and most likely would be relieved by having passed on.

That's how I would write back-from-the-dead Wesley. Like I've said before, it would be very dark. Much darker than we've ever seen him. If there's going to be any kind of happy or fulfilling ending, it's going to have to earn it. Buffy did. Didn't you feel joy at the end of Buffy, for what she/they had accomplished, but such sadness at what everyone had sacrificed to get there? That's how my Wesley story would end. If I ever end up writing it, and if I can ever pull it off. It isn't that the story isn't in me, it's that I usually have writer's block. I'm hoping watching Angel season 5 (for the first time on DVD!) will inspire me.

Illyria can sense his presense and we all know that she's a God and she can find a way to bring him back if she wanted to, natural death or not. That's just one way, ZM has mentioned many ways in the past, I've thought that it made sense that Illyria finds that gizmo that sapped her strength and reverses it on herself and goes back in time and saves him.

Yes, Illyria getting her powers back to go back in time to save Wesley is a possibility, but it's too easy for me. It's too Deux Ex Machina. I always resist going that route when I write fic. Joss, however, he can do whatever he wants and it will always ring true for me (well, except that one time).
Perhaps Illyria's powers would be involuntary...the strength of her emotions might send her hurtling through time, uncontrollably. Perhaps with great pain to her...

That might be a route that could be earned.
I think that some characters just have to stay dead. There has to be some finality to their human existance or else it would cheapen their death.

People may argue "But no! came back and their death was still meaningful!" True, but not every character came back in human form. Many came back as vampires or as a guise of The First. I think that some of the most memorable and sad deaths were also those that were permanent.

For me, Joyce, Tara, and Anya's deaths are more significant than Buffy's, for example, because although at the time it was poignant (and still is) we know that, for Buffy, life went on. But it didn't for the other characters. They are gone. Buffy died for a very important purpose, to close the dimensional portal. But Joyce died from human illness. Tara was shot accidentally.

These deaths weren't heroic or chosen by the character, but sudden and brutal. Anya's death was almost more so, becausse although she also died fighting evil, she was killed brutally from behind and surrounded by enemies. She was alone. She had no chance to speak to anyone she knew as Buffy had Dawn. Buffy knew that her death would save the world and so accepted it, as Spike did in "Chosen". Anya didn't know whether they would prevent the apocalypse when she died, that she did some meaure of good. Xander didn't even have time to recover her body and give her a burial, which characters like Buffy, Joyce, Tara and Jenny were given.

The nature of Anya's resurrection would be very different from Buffy's because Buffy's was a symbolic death, an acceptance of her place in the world, her responsibilities and her love for her friends and family, whereas Anya's was very literal. To reverse it would be very hard to justify. Buffy's resurrection itself was risky because unless there were severe consequences it would have cheapened her death. And there were, so her resurrection was a big deal.

But you can't have every dead character coming back because it would be ridiculous, there has to be some limit and so far there haven't been a lot of characters who have truely returned from being dead to their human form.

Having not seen season five of Angel it's hard to say, but in the case of Illryia it sounds promising that Fred could return, because not only is it plausible (with her human 'shell' still in existance) but it could still retain the importance of her death, having to share a body with Illyria and not being the same person she was before.
Resurrecting Wesley is kind of a circular thing. Had there been a season 6, I don't think he would have died and would not need a resurrection. For that reason I don't feel so bad with my imagined resuscitations.

I think the memory/soul thing deserves further investigation. For example, Angel's soul works because of the memory it brings, it forces him to remember his victims, not only in an objective sense, but to remember the pain and the grief that their deaths occasioned. In that sense memory and soul are intertwined (kind of like what ZM was saying about Illyria and Fred).

Remember the dream Wesley has where post-Illyria Fred tells him to look deeper? I really think she was still there, perhaps in now-Illyria's memories, perhaps in some other form.

Finally, I don't generally have a problem with resurrections in general. Throughout history, the idea of resurrection has been a belief people held to as a way to deal with grief. These stories are very much about the different mythologies that we use to order our world, to survive. Playing out a resurrection narrative merely taps into that desire to believe in something after death. Another story that we use to survive the death of someone else is that of their continuing existence in our memory. We carry them with us and therefore they continue to live. If Fred lives in Wesley's memory, she lives even more in the memory of Illyria.

[ edited by Biff Turkle on 2005-04-04 16:49 ]

You need to log in to be able to post comments.
About membership.



joss speaks back home back home back home back home back home