Which means that i'm correct and my friend who holds on to her "demon Butch and Sundance" theory where they all died in the alley after Not Fade Away is wrong. I knew it!

Basically i have a friend who still will not accept that the final episode of Angel was unchanged, for the most part anyway, from what it would have been had season six gone ahead. To be fair she doesn't spend much time on the internet and therefore isn't aware of most of what is said, only what she saw on the show, so she has her mind made up that there is no way out for them a the end of NFA, despite the fact i have tried to convince her a couple of hundred times already that they were meant to go on to another season.

I haven't seen her for a while so i'm going to have to point this Amy interview out to her at some point, not to mention the Spike telemovie plans. I love being right, i'm so damn good at it! :)

WhedonTrivia | April 09, 14:16 CET

Of course, Illyria survived NFA - she has to in order to be in Spike the Series - coming soon to a TV screen near you!

catalyst2 | April 09, 14:53 CET

She was practically immortal, how exactly would you kill her anyway, even at her "reduced strength". Wolfram & Hart feared her kind for good reason, right? (My favorite scene with her was charging through the suburbia hell-world/dimension to get Gunn - wish we had seen more of what was described later :-) I just imagine her visiting Desperate Housewives or something... heh

Personally I think Joss has always had a "kill everyone" fetish that he didn't get to satify on Buffy (remember that alternate script floating around?) so he tried to stage it on Angel.

TaraLivesOn | April 09, 16:24 CET

Well of course Illyria lived! So did Spike and Angel. I'm not sure about poor Gunn though.

killinj | April 09, 17:37 CET

Erm, what alternate Buffy script? I'd like to take a peep at it.

Ocular | April 09, 17:58 CET

The alternate Chosen script was a fan made effort from what I can remember.

Simon | April 09, 17:59 CET

"I just imagine her visiting Desperate Housewives or something... heh"

Priceless.

phlebotinin | April 09, 18:26 CET

I figured Illyria would survive, but I am rather impressed - especially considering how Adam Baldwin beat her to a bloody pulp without much effort.

Daromaius | April 09, 19:37 CET

I always knew Illyria (and Angel and Spike) survived the alley in NFA. I also know people who thought they all died. I believe a few columnists did too. When people say they hated the ending, it's usually because they think they all died. Didn't Joss say at the first con after NFA that our heroes might be/are still alive, except for Gunn?

I believe in my heroes. Plus, there's still that Shanshu prophecy floating around. And you can't tell me Harmony will be the one.

electricspacegirl | April 09, 19:58 CET

No but Dru perhaps could be.

Simon | April 09, 20:41 CET

The alternate Chosen script was mostly different from the eventual version with regards to Dawn, and something else I can't remember right now. In it, Dawn was discovered to be a Potential/Slayer after all, because she has exactly the same blood as Buffy does (Slayer blood). Would've been kind of cool if they went through with this if you ask me, but the way it turned out now is fine too I guess. Does anybody remember what the other thing was that didn't make the final version of the episode?

[ edited by Storyteller on 2005-04-09 19:26 ]

Storyteller | April 09, 21:21 CET

"No but Dru perhaps could be."

Hadn't thought of that. Very interesting.

I also don't think they died in that alley (Gunn aside), but for me the finale is beautiful either way. We're meant to come up with our own conclusions with makes me revere Joss even more, if possible. I go with the idea that Joss et al. had planned for a Season 6 and thus at least some of them would have made it out alive. It drives me insane that there were Jossian plans for Illyria which we may never know. Another crazy-making thing: what new characters might Joss have introduced to us? I can't stand the idea that there might have been a new Fang Gang member or two and now we'll never know them.

Where's my Jordan Levine voodoo doll? Must go stick some more pins in it. Savagely.

phlebotinin | April 09, 21:44 CET

I know there was an alternate script where Xander died instead of Anya. I'm not sure if that was fan-made or put out there by the writers as a mislead.

It inspired me to write Thorton's Hope, a short AU fic where Anya remembers Xander. It's my little tribute to Anya. If you read it, can you spot the reference to something said in "The Killer in Me"?

Ok, that was shameless of me to pimp my fic like that. I hope you all can forgive me.

electricspacegirl | April 09, 21:47 CET

Mwaahaahaha. It's OK we forgive you. :)

ShotgunWes | April 09, 22:57 CET

Best. News. Ever!

Apocalypse | April 09, 23:57 CET

Wasn't Xander going to die in Chosen?

charisma | April 10, 01:13 CET

I watch "Pimp My Fic" on MTV every weekend. You shoulda seen how they pimped out "Tess of the D'Urbervilles"! Black leather binding with neon teal piping! Gilt-edged bonds mixed with metallic flake! Endpapers poppin' with kickass flame designs! And the rims! They were spinnin', dawg, spinnin'!

Anyway, I always thought Season 5 would not have had the Circle of the Black Thorn or the deaths of Fred, Wes, and Gunn, or the final confrontation we saw and the "Go Down Fighting" spirit of NFA had ANGEL not been cancelled.

However, in my mind, after NFA stopped, Angel and crew were fighting the good fight and things looked bad but they weren't dead yet until Joss told me (and by "me" I mean "us") otherwise.
So I never took the way NFA ended (or rather "stopped") to mean "they all died". I took the episode to mean "Fight the good fight and IF you go down, you lived and died honorably". And I hope someday soon, Joss tells us that for the most part the world was once again saved and at least some of our heroes survived.

Next week on "Pimp My Fic": "A Farewell to Arms" by Ernest Hemingway! Can't wait to see what they replace them arms with!

[ edited by batmarlowe on 2005-04-09 23:42 ]

batmarlowe | April 10, 01:41 CET

I hate that "alternate chosen" script so bad cause i KNOW its fake but some fans don't and to this day believe it was a real script. Its just fan fic made by a bitter fan.(notice how it goes out of its way to include stuff fans wanted in the finale like dawn becoming a slayer and "she wont' choose you" being figured into it, the first evil turning into big bads including Angel?)

[ edited by eddy on 2005-04-10 04:11 ]

eddy | April 10, 06:09 CET

I'm glad Dawn didn't turn Slayer. I just got season six, which has lots of good special extras, imo. Lotsa commentary. I used to call Dawn the Scrappy Doo of the Scooby Gang, but I began to like her over time. And they point out that they didn't want her to fall into the younger-kid-killing-the-show kinda thing. By not making her a "newer younger Summers Slayer" I think they made Dawn a much more acceptable character and easier to embrace. Even if it was hard at first.

WhoIsOmega? | April 10, 06:19 CET

Hey, stop hatin' on the alternate-Chosen. It may have been fic, but it was quality. Xander dies, Anya lives, and we see The First Evil as Kendra - what's not to like?

Daromaius | April 10, 06:58 CET

There is an extra on the season 7 set where Joss says there was another script he couldn't use because it was too long (if I am remembering correctly).

TaraLivesOn | April 10, 07:44 CET

I think he only deleted like 2 scenes TaraLivesOn. From my memory its the Giles/Wood smoke and Buffy flashbacking to the previous seasons as she walks down the school hall.

And Daromaius, I didn't think Kendra showing up for no reason when she wasn't mentioned in 6 years as quality and thats notwithstanding the numourous typos and idiotic idea of putting Xander's line in the last scene to Anya. Does anyone think Joss would do that? He gave the character's their own voices, so their dialogue is not interchangeable.

And now that I got that out. Lets see that Illyria return. I'm game.

eddy | April 10, 09:21 CET

The characters have their own voices, but occasionally dialogue is interchangeable. Not every single word is exclusive.

Seeing Kendra again wouldn't be a major plot twist, just a quirk and a nice tip of the hat from the writers to show that they still remember where they came from - the show was filled to the brim with nods at its past. It's not a new concept.

And also, I think you kind of need to chill.

Daromaius | April 10, 18:23 CET

By the way, there's an r missing in Illyria's name in this entry, Simon. ;)

Storyteller | April 10, 18:58 CET

I'm perfectly chilled. I was just explaining why I dislike it so much but since its not really important to this topic nor do I want to be viewed as starting a argument I will refrain from this subject.

Go Illyria!

eddy | April 10, 21:41 CET

I love Illyria. She has so much depth and complexity even after a mere seven episodes.

Spangel | April 12, 19:22 CET

Points at the alternate "OMG it's so real," I say.

It's nice to know it's not. The spuffy parts made me sad.

charisma | April 27, 01:53 CET