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Whedonesque - a community weblog about Joss Whedon
"Maybe where you're from all the children play walk through the walls. I never learned it."
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April 17 2005

Bring back the Whedonverse: Part Two. is commencing the second part of their campaign for the Whedonverse to be brought back to their screen. 'Here's another opportunity for fans of "Angel" to demonstrate that they will not fade away. Within the next few weeks the networks will determine which of this season's TV series will return next fall. Tell USA Today - and the networks - what you hope to see next year.'

Ah, outstanding fan warfare. Done.
While I like daydreaming of a new, future Whedon TV show, he has already clearly stated - several times - that he is not coming back to TV, at least not anytime soon (I don't blame him, considering the way he has been treated by the networks). He also likes the more relaxed pace of making movies to spend more time with his kids.

However what should be asked for are Buffyverse films, so something gets on his schedule after "Wonder Woman" and the "Serenity" trilogy. Joss is pretty much booked through 2007 at this point, sigh...

[ edited by TaraLivesOn on 2005-04-17 12:22 ]
With all due respect, TaraLivesOn, what does it matter what has been "clearly stated" today? In the world of television that has very little to do with what will happen tomorrow. Situations change every single day and quite honestly if this campaign was to get a network or cable channel interested enough to approach Joss and offer him the chance to revisit the slayerverse in a new series, do you think he would say no?

It wasn't so long ago that there was no real talk of anything happening with Buffy and Angel, now there is very real discussion of a Spike telemovie coming from the two people who most matter, Joss and James. If Joss has no interest in doing anything on the small screen then why is he even entertaining the idea of this happening?

To be quite honest i think a lot of people now are getting realism mixed up with pessimism. We have been let down so many times in recent years, with the likes of Firefly and Angel getting cancelled, Ripper and Buffy Animated going nowhere, that we just don't let ourselves believe that anything good will actually come along until filming has actually begun. Unfortunately i see it as being a chicken and egg situation. If we don't push then filming won't begin, but if you won't push until filming begins then nothing will ever come at all. It may only be talk right now but do you think that this Spike telemovie would even be a consideration if Joss and James didn't see the fans pushing for it? Do you think Joss would have been so intent in getting Serenity off the ground if not for fans letting him know how much they wanted more? It may be his baby but he wouldn't have been anywhere near so eager if he thought it was going to bomb, would he?

I applaud any kind of fan effort such as this one, simply because they refuse to give up, refuse to be dictated to and refuse to let the suits at the networks get them down. If and when we next see a slayerverse series on the television it will be in large part thanks to these people so rather than just daydream about a new series, why not do your part to help make one happen? I don't know if it will succeed but quite frankly i don't really care, i'll still do what i can. If it fails then at least i'll know i tried to help but if it succeeds then i'll be able to honestly say i was a part of it. Good enough for me, either way.
Watcher, you have some very good points, but unfortunately it's not the fanbase that networks and film studios poll (hence the cancellation of a "little" show called "Enterprise" in a "little" verse called "trek"). For TV, it's how much GENERAL audience that will watch so they CAN SELL ADS for the masses, not the much smaller percentage of fans. They will put ANYTHING on the air if it seems trendy, they could care less about quality. For the theatres it's how many millions they can make back over the production cost and then sell DVDs. Firefly becoming a one-shot movie was a no brainer - it was already developed. Now for it become a triology like I hope, that means people have to "vote" at the theatres with dollars, writing in will also mean nothing.

It's been very seriously stated by several in the business that shows like Buffy and Angel would probably never get made today. They are too intelligent and tend to only speak to the people that THINK (and like story-arcs which are absent from most of TV surviving today).

Joss is the person we should let know we still love him and want to see his kind of work on TV. Joss is the one that has moved on. He stopped fighting for TV time. Nagging the networks will do nothing. Nagging Joss will make sure that he knows he is missed and that producing one movie per year is not enough to keep us completely happy.

Remember what I said today when the last part of the Serenity trilogy comes out on DVD in 2007 :-)

There is one hope however. Buffy and Angel were made on 35mm which makes them very expensive per episode. HDTV equipment is a fraction of the cost for production from "filming" to editing/post-production. By 2007 it could be fairly cheap for Joss to make "Ripper".
I understand what TaraLivesOn is saying. The bottom line is Buffy and Angel is over and we should let it be. And I would agree with that statement. But you kinda' lost me on the future outlook. Joss didn't leave television, it left him. When did he state he wouldn't return to TV?
Everyone raises good points. I do think that there is a limit to how effective fan campaigns are, but it is important at least to make sure that Joss knows he has our support and we are desperate to see any of his projects.

Take the Save Angel campaign. Presently, nothing came of it as the show was still cancelled and there have been no spin offs. But people did take notice, and it created waves, and even made some money for charity. It could contribute to any future decisions to make a spin off or mini movies. If people had just accepted the news then Angel would have disappeared with neither Joss nor the networks knowing that anyone cared, and then any future projects would have immediately been forgotten.

So I think it is important that people keep campaigning because it does have an effect, however small, even if it just inspires or motivates Joss.
Headline from the front cover of SFX #101 Feb 2003.

Buffy Boss: "I Quit TV"
"I don't want to be a one-trick pony!"

Relevant Joss Whedon quote from that issue

"I'm working my ass off on Buffy and Angel and I've already proven that I care about these shows and always will. But the fact of the matter is that Firefly is the main thing that gets me up in the morning. I mean, I love it, I am in love with it. If Firefly goes away, I'm not going to go, 'Oh, I have to create a show that shows people that I can do something that's not Buffy.' I already think that I have. ... I know that I sound like a schmo, but the fact is that I would never make a show just to prove something. I would make a show if I had a story to tell. I have a bunch that I want to tell, I'm not just going to tell them in television form for a while."

There it is in black and white that Joss was intending to leave television. That was alway his game plan.

Now obviously, certain events have occurred since that interview. The cancellation of Angel, Firefly being greenlighted for the big screen and Joss writing and directing Wonder Woman. Admittedly he has expressed interest in a Spike TV movie but that's all that is at the moment. He's doing post production for Serenity, no doubt gearing himself up for endless Serenity press interviews and is probably doing a lot of preparation for Wonder Woman.

Some people will say "But he did three shows at once, surely he can do a Spike TV movie or a spinoff as well as work on movies?" Making a movie is far more time consuming than working on a tv show. Far more money is at stake. There's a larger production crew and a film studio to take into consideration. I can't see Warner Bros being too thrilled by Joss doing a Spike TV movie as well as a Wonder Woman movie at the same time. Even if Joss does delegate a lot of the every day running of a TV show to others, he still has to pay close attention to it. And that aint going to happen while he is making movies.

As I've said before, its probably going to be another 5 years before we see Joss return to television. And he will have far more clout with the networks as a result of having at least a couple of successful movies under his belt. So it's going to have to be a waiting game for Buffyverse fans.

It's oddly fitting that this is my 3000th comment at Whedonesque
Madhatter - I disagree - if people (the fans) want more of the Buffyverse why should we remian silent? No - I say we still do everything we can to get it back. Never stop fighting the good fight - didnt Angel teach you anything ! :)
As much as I love the man's work (I even watched the Director's cut of Alien: Resurrection just for the little Joss touches, if that establishes my willingness to go through pain for crumbs), yeah, I'd like to see the 'verse back in swing. TV was the right medium for it. It's hard to pull off character development in a 100 minute movie, but in the 990 minutes of a full season ... I don't care what it is. Trials of the Loose-Skinned: The Clem Origin Story? I'm there. Xander and Andrew's Old-Time Comic Shoppe? I'm on board.
Can't we just... let the shows be?
Madhatter - I disagree - if people (the fans) want more of the Buffyverse why should we remian silent? No - I say we still do everything we can to get it back. Never stop fighting the good fight - didnt Angel teach you anything ! :)

You don't need fan campaigns to let the people behind Buffy/Angel/Firefly know there are people who care deeply about the shows. They already know.
If we can't get more shows or movies for a while, a new video game on the next gen consoles would be great. I loved the first 2...

[ edited by Caroline to correct spelling, capitalising and punctuation. Norman, please make an effort. ]
I want to clarify something. The point is to keep the idea of telemovies or a spin-off in the press. I don't have any illusions that it will miraculously bring about a tv show of any kind - that as we all know is unlikely to happen anytime soon. However, it doesn't hurt to keep asking. It's a credit to Joss that his fans keep clamouring for more.

Yes, the people behind Buffy/Angel/Firefly know there are people out there who care deeply about the shows. Why stop telling them we care? I know my family loves me, that doesn't mean I want them to stop telling me. Besides, we're really hoping to get the attention of people who aren't behind Buffy/Angel/Firefly and get them to thinking that maybe they should be.

Its a harmless campaign. Maybe it won't make any difference, but it doesn't hurt anything either.
I'm with killinj, it doesn't hurt to try. Yes, Joss knows we love him. Yes, the networks know we want more 'verse. BUT, the press is what seems to kick things into gear these days (hello....our 2 friends at E! and TV Guide). This will also gain exposure for Joss's career, which is a GOOD thing. Plus, being a true fan, how can I say "no" to emailing someone about a Spike telemovie? It takes very little time, and I just can't ignore it. The Watcher, your words were beautiful. Thanks!
killinj, that's great. I'm glad to see fans taking it upon themselves to keep things in the public eye (without illusions). But frankly, although the movies will be fewer and farther between, I'm glad that Joss has moved on from televison, that doesn't seem to appreciate him, to film, which just might. And I really think the Buffyverse has said all that it really needed to with Buffy and Angel. There might be stuff left in a Spike telemovie, Buffy Animated or Ripper (or an Illyria spin off...), but Angel and Buffy are done. I still watch the DVDs (all the time), but I don't want new episodes. I want more Firefly, or new Joss. Wherever Joss' passion lies, that's where his best work gets done. And I am interested in him making his Best Work.
Wow, I've never been so disappointed as I am right now, just reading what a few of you have to say. Years and years of smart, witty, and FUN entertainment and most of it was taken away from us, and now you have a chance to fight back (which is a hell of a lot more than most fans get) and you're saying no? That's totally up to you, I guess, but I can honestly say that life without anything Whedon is a sad one. I get my kicks out of Desperate Housewives and MAD TV, which so isn't enough.

If you aren't going to make an effort to get Whedon or us noticed or don't want the show back, atleast give it the favour of being a POSSIBILITY in the near future or far future. Make some noise. Things can change. It's up to the fans, the people in charge of shows, and the networks and the chances of us all pulling another show or movie off sometime soon are pretty high at this point.
Granted, Joss has his hands full with SERENITY, WONDER WOMAN, and possible SERENITY sequels. But first of all there may not be any SERENITY sequels (although I'm betting our first weekend support and buying of the subsequent DVD will mean that sequels are more likely than not). Secondly, Joss didn't say "never" about TV just "not for a while". Thirdly, look at someone like Spielberg. He directs a movie every couple years and as a prodcer has his fingers, toes, and any other appendage he can find in many projects. I think Joss has that kind of energy and drive. I can see him directing and developing WW, SERENITY sequels, and overseeing a 'Verse telemovie.
I'm turning blue here.
Is it going to happen? Probably not. Is that the point? No. This is a chance to show that we still exist, ready for any Joss project. We can show we still remember and we weren't some bandwagon cause. Those shows still matter to us and we will take what we can get.
pixxelpuss - the campaign isn't asking for the shows Buffy or Angel to come back. By your own admission, there might be a Buffy Animated, Spike Telemovie, or Ripper. Those are exactly the kind of things this campaign is saying fans want to see.
I sent my email. I'm with killinj. We need to keep making our presence known. If five years go by, and there still is no Buffyverse movie or series, I want the fans to still be making noise. As long as Joss is alive, there is the possibility of more stories in this universe. There is also the possibility of new universes Joss may create. I will always support Joss and I want to show my support publicly. We should never let the powers forget Joss Whedon's name.
What is wrong with you people? (some of you people)

He won't do it...the networks suck...buffy/angel is one listens to us...huff, huff, huff....sits in corner and pouts.

ummmm...hello?....try?...please?...for me? one email can't hurt.
Joss has recently expressed interest in the idea of a Spike TV movie. He said that he'd have one or more of his former ME cohorts oversee and write it (with the assumption that everything would be okayed with him first.) He also said that he'd be up for talking about it but no-one at the networks have contacted him.

So......what's the problem here? It seems sending an email can't hurt. May even help. It's not about bugging Joss. It's about bugging the networks. Joss is very busy with movies right now and will be for some time. His heart lies in movies right now. He's expressed that clearly. But he did also recently say he'd be interested in a Spike TV movie. That part is undeniable. Again, I ask, what's the problem with an email campaign? It may or may not be futile but if fans wish to devote some energy to this then that is their choice.
Gads, I hope I don't get in trouble for this. I understand the appreciation of true art. And I understand loyalty to Joss. I do. But some of you people sound like religious fanatics.

Joss does not want to be in television right now. Joss ended Buffy of his own accord, is toying with the idea of a Spike continuation from Angel (albeit in small-screen format) and is carrying on Firefly's legacy on the big screen.

Give the man a gorram break.

I'm all about keeping up the letters to let him and the folks behind these projects know that we still love them and will follow them through any endeavors they take. I say rock on. But to wish to continue rocking the boat five, ten years from now just because there's no new Bangelverse material? To let them know, what? You're still there? Maybe they don't want you. Maybe they want a newer generation of fans. Maybe they want you to fade quietly into the background for a year or two so they can think about what they're actually going to do next, instead of fielding letters, phone calls, and death threats from the militant Jossians.

You're fans. Of a television show (or three). Are they extraordinary, above-and-beyond, lifechanging television shows? Most certainly. But at the end of the day, it's a show. Maybe the actors want to move on. Maybe the writers want to move on.

Maybe Joss wants to move on.

It's nice that you all claim to support the man, but right now "supporting him" would mean letting him go where his heart desires. He loved Buffy and Angel. The sad truth is that Buffy and Angel are over, and even if someday we have movies and spinoffs and original materials, they will still be over. There will never be another Buffy or another Angel.

And I say that's a good thing. All things must come to an end sooner or later. It's nice that we can all appreciate them years after their end, but you do not need to cling to future 'verse projects as if they are the only things standing between you and an afterlife of eternal torment. It's one thing to be loyal, but it's another to be damned near belligerent.
Joss has said that he wants to find the right people to talk to about a Spike movie , James is on board, The WB are reportedly interested, several writers have expressed their willingness to work on such a project.

My E mail is on it's way

it can do no harm and it may do some good
I do not get the angst on this thread.

I do not think anyone has indicated they wanted to force anything on anybody. No one has said they want to try to bug Joss or the actors into doing anything they are not interested in. They are simply saying that if fans want to they can let USAToday know that Joss's fans are still yearning to see new work by him on television.

That kind of publicity is not usually considered a bad thing and Joss certainly does not seem like the type of person to worry too much about fan pressure. That seems especially true since this sounds like it would be a "Television networks should beg Joss to do a show for them." kind of message not aimed at Joss at all.

Is it going to create a show? Almost certainly not. Does it hurt Joss in some way? Almost certainly not, as long as everyone acts like sane, thoughtful adults.

So BtVS and Angel are over. So no one knows what the future holds, and no one should hold their breath for a spin-off or new Whedonverse show (though a Spike movie certainly seems possible.) The thing is, if you do not say what you want you will rarely get it...and since people (especially American business executives) have very short memories they do need to be reminded.
I'm sort of with Daromaius, here. I was a huge fan of Buffy. I wasn't sure I'd like Angel. But I gave it a try, and I loved it. Later, I finally bought the Firefly set. And I LOVED it (in fact tonight several friends are coming over to start rewatching the series, one episode per week in lead-up to the movie). I'm looking forward to Serenity. I never liked WW at all, and I'm looking forward to the movie. Why? Because I trust Joss. While spin-offs etc might keep the property running, I don't think that that's the story he wants to tell at the moment. If it were, he'd be doing it. This is the man who took a not-successful movie, turned it into one of the best TV shows of all time, spun off another fantastic tv show from it, and then took a failed SPACE-WESTERN tv show and got it to the Big Screen.

My faith is in Joss. That means that I trust that he's doing what he wants to do, and that if he needed our help in bombarding the networks with letters he'd ask for it. Whatever story he tells will be the one to engage us, to break our hearts, to inspire us. It'll also be whatever one is in him to tell. We can't determine that for him. If he needs time off from the Buffyverse, give him that time.

Fans expressing their adoration is great. In fact, I think the fans are doing great jobs. We raise money for charities, donate DVD sets to libraries, make the actors, writers, etc of our favorite shows feel like they've really accomplished something (which they have)... but I think it's beneath us to make nuisances of ourselves. Yeek, that's not meant to be so harsh, and I support rabid fandom. But harassing networks that aren't even remotely involved? Don't you think we'd be better off THANKING the WB and the UPN for the years of wonderful programming than begging for more? Although I'm not above a write hatemail to Fox for cancelling Firefly campaign...
One nice thing about Whedonesque is that we are a broad church. We have fans of Joss, we have fans of one particular character or show, we have fans of the actors themselves and so on and so on. It would be incredibly boring if we always agreed on the same thing all the time. There will always be difference of opinion here. And I love to read the great debates here, it's one of the joys of being part of this community. But I do not appreciate posters calling other posters "religious fanatics" or asking "what's wrong with you people". Posters are entitled to their opinions if expressed in a calm, mannered, polite, intelligent tone. You may not necessarily agree with them but I would ask you to respect what they say. Those that want to help in a campaign that's fine, those that don't that's fine too.

I appreciate that the future of the Whedonverse in what ever form is an emotive issue and it is certainly one I feel passionately about. But remember we've got a good few decades of the Whedonverse to look forward too. It's only just beginning.
It's only just beginning.

Thank you Simon, very well said. I agree with TaraLivesOn, TheZeppo and Daromaius, and I too feel okay with Buffy and Angel over. I love them both, I own all of the DVDs and often re-watch select seasons and arcs, but I can accept that they are over and, as far as we know, their canonical stories are told. I'm very grateful for Joss for telling them and even grateful for the networks giving him, his talented cast and crew the chance to tell their stories. The future *is* bright and in Joss I trust (not to sound too fanatical, though ;-) )
pixxelpuss, I'm with you, my faith IS in Joss. But, I don't think I was making a nuisance of myself when I emailed USA Today earlier this morning.

James has already been quoted "I told Joss I would love to work with him, whatever he's got. So, series TV, direct-to-video, animation, whatever! He's a good writer, so he tends to attract good writers, so it's good to work with him." ( E! online's Watch with Kristin on March 12th, 2005).

Straight from the genius himself..."Spike would be different as a subject and that's what makes it fresh. I don't want to try to recapture the essence of something that I've already done. I want to put a new spin on it." (TV Guide's Ask Ausiello on March 30th, 2005).

You may not think that Joss wants to tell new stories on Spike, but this quote tells me something different. Maybe not today, or tomorrow, or hell even next year...but it sounds like he in fact does want to tell new stories. My email is just giving a media outlet a message to get the buzz flowing. I know Joss will decide to start the dealings when he is ready.
sorry for the "what's wrong with you people" quote, SImon. hangs head in shame....yes, wouldn't it be boring if we all agreed on everything all the time?
The sad truth is that Buffy and Angel are over, and even if someday we have movies and spinoffs and original materials, they will still be over. There will never be another Buffy or another Angel.

I've said this once already, but it seems to need repeating: this campaign is NOT about bringing the shows Buffy or Angel back.

I'm also puzzled by the idea that fans sending an innocent little email to USA Today is somehow going cause Joss a headache or that we're not letting him move on.

That's just silly. We're not that influential. It's been proven to us already that we don't have a lot of power to persuade anybody to do anything otherwise Firefly and Angel would still be on the air. Joss certainly isn't the type to bend to the fans will - quite the contrary.

We applaud Joss moving on. We're the same people who are rooting for Serenity to do well, who are curious about how he'll handle Wonder Woman, and who are excited about how well he's doing with the comic books.

There is nothing in the least bit belligerent going on here. It isn't even directed at Joss. It's just a few fans saying to a reporter at USA Today, who happens to cover television, that they miss the Jossverse on TV and would like to see more someday. There really isn't anything more to it than that.
Pixxelpuss & Gorramit - Thank you. Well said.

Killinj - I can't speak for others, but my comment was less in response to the original post and more into the comments that followed.

Simon - I'm sorry you took offense to my comment, and while I shall try to be more careful in the future, I stand behind what I said.

I've seen an awful lot of people (both here and elsewhere) pretty much trying to pimp off their ideas of what they want Joss to do, rather than trusting him to follow through with his own career. Joss is no fool. If he wants to bring back the Buffyverse, he'll bring back the Buffyverse. When he's good and ready. And when/if he decides to do that, nothing in the 'verse is going to be able to stop him.

That was my point. I get very upset when I see (a) people acting as if, if they don't remind him, Joss is going to forget that he has this rich, fully-developed universe just lingering in the back of his mind, and (b) all the hostility present toward networks or people who - gasp - maybe don't want Buffy or Angel back, and are glad that they ended and ended with dignity. That's all.
Ok Daromaius, I just didn't want anyone thinking that this was about telling Joss what to do, but simply reminding the world that we'd like to see more of his work on television some day.
I am a fan of Joss. I will support him in anything he chooses to do, not just something from the Buffyverse. And I was not talking about bugging Joss 5 years from now, I was talking about bugging the networks and the press, just to let them know Joss' fans still exist. I don't think that's unreasonable.

As for whether sending out an email once in a while is fanatical, hell yeah it is. Aren't we all fans? That's why I'm here on Whedonesque. I'm surprised that supporting the Buffyverse is a problem with some of you. I only wrote that email to USAToday in support of a Spike movie because Joss has expressed interest. But I also love Firefly, and I'm very much interested in other fictional stories Joss will create. I do and will support those too.

Right now I'm focusing on the Spike movie because Joss wants it made. What's wrong with that?
What I don't get it the tendency for some "fans" to come to a site called "Whedonesque" and proceed to insult the devotion of its posters with inflammatory remarks. If you stand by your "religious fanatics" remark so strongly, Daromaius, then why are you even here?

Maybe you'd feel more comfortable slamming us over on another site, where they encourage that sort of thing.

I, for one, am proud of my fandom. I consider Whedonesque an upper echelon fan site for a man I happen to think hung the moon. Why does it bother you so much that a few folks want to express enthusiasm by sending a few emails or postcards? How does that move you, hurt you, to the point where you have to post condescending words about the senders?
Y'know what would be really helpful? If Joss himself would actually tell us exactly what he wants to see happen in the next five years, as far as his creations are concerned.

We are all really good at giving opinions around here. We all know what we want to happen and we tend to let that influence what we hear Joss and other ex Mutant Enemy cast and crew say. I, for one, am one of those rooting for a speedy return to the slayerverse because that is my particular favourite of the work Joss has done. Because of that i tend to dwell on any comment he makes that suggests that he wants to get something started, hence why i'm so enthusiastic about the murmurings concerning Spike right now. Others are more into his Firefly creation and so are focused on Serenity and it's hopeful sequels. Some are more interested in what Joss will do in other projects and so are happy for him to leave both the slayerverse and Firefly behind. We all have our particular wishes and so we all see things differently.

What i would love to see is for Joss to put it plainly to us about what he really wants. Not just random comments and cryptic suggestions about things that might occur, i want to know exactly what he wants.

See, from all i've seen and read so far i can't decide if Joss is really sick of television or if he is just extremely jaded from the treatment he has received in the last few years. If it's the former and he really doesn't want to do any more television then quite honestly i have no wish to guilt trip him into feeling obliged to do so. If he is only making these Spike comments because he thinks that is what we want to hear then i'd rather it not happen. However, if he really wants to do more slayerverse stuff but is just so sick of the networks and their underhand dealings then that is a different matter. In that case i don't feel it is wrong to try convince him to return to the small screen, even if only to prove the current network system wrong by showing that intelligent television is not a thing of the past.

At the end of the day i think we would all be happy to accept whatever Joss told us he wanted to happen. However, until he turns up here again and actually tells us in no uncertain terms that he is done with the slayerverse, or that he is done with television, then i see no reason to stop pushing for something so many of us want to see.

Edited due to the fact that, for some reason, i'd forgotten the difference between "here" and "hear"! ;)

[ edited by The Watcher on 2005-04-18 02:39 ]
Reasonable post, The Watcher, I agree with what you said. Anything that Joss does will be eagerly anticipated by us who love his work.

You know what though? He has earned it. A decade or more of being exposed to his voice and vision has given us all a map to his brain and we know, without a doubt, that he will enlighten, entertain, and touch us.

His fandom aren't blind sheep. We know from where we speak.
What i would love to see is for Joss to put it plainly to us about what he really wants. Not just random comments and cryptic suggestions about things that might occur, i want to know exactly what he wants.

That would be ideal.

Willowy - I have not resorted to namecalling or ad hominem attacks. I am not trashing people, I am decrying an attitude. I believe you've reacted to my comments without processing them fully.

I do not consider myself to have badmouthed this site or any person on it, and I would never do so in another forum behind this site's back. That would be beyond disrespectful; it would be childish. I'm not taunting or tormenting you, I'm sharing an opinion and also, confronting several people about an opinion that I think is either poorly worded or poorly thought-out. Some of The Watcher's clarifications have helped here somewhat.

As Simon said, we're a broad range of people with an even broader range of opinions. And again, I'm sorry if people took such offense to two words in my first comment that they were blinded from my point, but the fact is that I stated my opinion, in a forum for opinions, where hundreds of others have done the same. If you think my intention here is to take refuge in a Whedon fansite for the purpose of flaming Whedon fans, you're sorely mistaken.

I consider myself a fan and a follower of Whedon's work. To quote The Watcher, I also happen to think the man hung the moon. How does my not wishing for a return to the Buffyverse in any way denote my status or lack thereof as a Whedon fan?

Edited to add that I bear no hostilities to anyone in this thread or on this site, and that while I'll continue to check comments in this thread, I am disengaging from this particular discussion. Anyone who wishes to converse further may obtain my contact information from my profile.

[ edited by Daromaius on 2005-04-18 03:50 ]
I've seen an awful lot of people (both here and elsewhere) pretty much trying to pimp off their ideas of what they want Joss to do, rather than trusting him to follow through with his own career. Joss is no fool. If he wants to bring back the Buffyverse, he'll bring back the Buffyverse. When he's good and ready. And when/if he decides to do that, nothing in the 'verse is going to be able to stop him.

Daromaius, I find a lot of points that you made valid, however, one thing that your forgetting is, it's up to the Networks to greenlight, and pay for these projects.

It's been said before and I'll say it again, please do not insult us, our love for the 'verse, or Joss by your missunderstanding of what people are saying. We are NOT trying to 'pimp off our ideas of what we want Joss to do'!! Joss himself has stated, he has many many talented cohorts who could do the job for him.
I suggest you read this thread again and actually listen to some of the comments by killinj, willowy, newcj, phlebotinin, and haraliscious (and many more I am sure). It's not about getting Angel or Buffy back on, we all accept they're over, it's about getting a new show, or a Spike movie.

Remember it took 15 years to get Star Trek back on tv, but it still did finally happen!!!!
For goodness sake this whole thread is about sending a friendly email to a newspaper about our favourite shows. Not a malicious attack on the networks.
I've sent my email, just to keep it in the public eye, it's got to be a good thing.

Just as a sidenote. I just read this in an article in the Washington Post, about the new Quantum Leap show!!

Harrisburg, Pa.: "Quantum Leap" was one of the greatest shows of all times. I recall when it was cancelled, someone stating that there is always a possibility that the show could return someday. I know it has been several years, but is there still some chance of reviving the show and giving it a second chance?

Donald P. Bellisario: I am working with Universal's scifi channel to create a new Quantum Leap which would have Stockwell as a regular and Scott Bakula appearing at least in the first episode which would introduce a young female reaper.

So, if we can get Quantum Leap back we surely can get a few more of the Verse characters back!
here's a link to that article
I hope that worked.

[ edited by nixygirl on 2005-04-18 04:23 ]
Daromaius, I actually was the one that said I thought he hung the moon, but that is not really important, just wanted to clarify. It seems to me that you are trying to backpedal from your earlier statement. You're stepping out? Alright, I guess you can do that any time you like, on the net.

Whether you intended to insult or not, you did. You can't just come here and say what flies off the top of your head, then not expect to be called on it. You DID insult us, deal with it. I did not respond to your comment off the cuff. I pondered, read it over again, and still came up with the same reaction. So yeah.

I have seen hundreds and possibly thousands of comments here on W. None of those that have mattered have been negative towards Joss or his fans. We are a supportive community, aware, and know our limits. We enjoy, we revel, we analyze, and we are mostly a positive group. I have never seen one post that is negative towards the fans or their efforts that is actually constructive. What are you trying to do? Make us feel silly for celebrating our fandom?

Any way we see fit to celebrate that is our business. It is not up to you to tell us that we are being "religious fanatics." We are intelligent and good-natured. In all our dealings and reports with the 'verse, we have been respectful. What is there in that to chastise? So get with it, or go away. At this point I don't care which.

Grr. Argh.
And how about Battlestar Galactica? That was on when I was a kid and look how well that resurrection has gone.

Well, I have some mixed feelings about all of this. I do consider myself a fanatical fan(or flanatical fan) and I'm proud to be one. I love all things Joss. If he comes back to tv whether it's with a new Buffyverse show or something new altogether I'll be thrilled but at the same time I'd love to see him have great success on the big screen. I do think Serenity will be a big hit and get it's sequels. I'm sure WW will be wonderful and witty and am also looking forward to that as well. I think for the time being Joss is happy to be so busy doing what he's doing and needed a break away from tv. But recent statements by him have indicated he would be very happy to do a Spike movie so I'd think he has ideas and would welcome that chance to revisit the verse.

Now, I don't think sending an e-mail would be upsetting to him in the least or make him feel harrassed. I feel it is just more proof of the devotion he has from his fans. The e-mails aren't going directly to him but to a newspaper. I think he'd feel flattered by it. I don't think it would make him do something he doesn't want to do. He doesn't work that way. If he wants to come back to tv and he has an idea for a spin-off or new show he'll let someone know. But I just want him to have success in what he wants to do. Right now he seems to be very happy where he is.

Simon, congrats on the 3000th post!

[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-04-18 04:40 ]
How does my not wishing for a return to the Buffyverse in any way denote my status or lack thereof as a Whedon fan?

Perhaps if you had simply stated your opinion plainly that you aren't interested in a return to the Buffyverse, rather than using some of the language you chose, there wouldn't be any misunderstandings.

Reading your original post, it comes across not as someone simply expressing a view that you'd rather not see more of the Buffyverse, but rather an comdemnation of those who do and are willing to express it. It wasn't just two words, it was the entire tone of your message. It may not be what you intended, but surely you can see why it may be interpreted that way.

I'm not sure what "attitude" you're decrying as I'm not seeing what you describe. If there is a poorly worded or thought-out opinion its the one you wrote. After all, if people are having trouble processing your comments maybe you should take more care to calmly state them in clear terms so that we can better understand.
I miss my Buffyverse. I sent an e-mail and will help anyway I can.
Joss said he was willing to do a Faith spinoff in October 2004. Recently he's expressed an interest in a Spike movie. It's not that he's that busy right now that he couldn't oversee a tv movie or even a new series.

Post is almost finished on Serenity. WW probably won't film until late 2006 at the earliest, if it ever does considering how often Warner Bros greenlights films like that and stalls for years and years. He's writing X-Men comics and maybe working on other movie scripts. He's not busy filming anything right now or for the next 1-2 years that would prevent him from returning to tv in an exec prod capacity.

I find Joss' exit from tv very strange since the entire landscape of tv has changed this year. Dramas like Lost and DH are in, reality is out. Networks must have been banging at Joss' door to create some pilot.

I think the WB really might be eventually interested in Buffy tv movie/spinoff since when things aren't working, networks go back to what worked before. The WB is in a ratings freefall. If they're next batch of new shows fail this fall, they're in a heap of trouble.

If Buffy fans are still out there, making noise, not fading away, maybe we have a shot at getting some network exec to consider a spinoff or tv movie. Or maybe we just make sure Joss doesn't forget about us.

I feel like there are plenty of more stories to tell about the Buffyverse. I don't think it's over. The Buffyverse could turn into a long running franchise like Star Trek, but that's not going to happen unless there are fans out there clamoring for it.
I think some of this discussion has gotten a little heated of the simple use of the term "religious fanatics". Frankly, I think some people on this thread are taking offense where none was meant. Daromaius may have used some blunt language, but I don't think he intended to demean the fandom. I think he and I may have the same reservations. I worry that if my demanding behavior (which it sometimes is) bothers someone while I'm asking for more Joss, that Joss will be the one whose reputation suffers. That either the networks or media will begin to dismiss us as especially vocal crazies, or that Joss himself might feel like the demands of his fans are not in line with what he really wants. Although I doubt he'd bend on that. It might be more productive for me to simply suggest that people who send these emails do so in a respectful manner (which likely they will anyway, but the internet has it's own bizarre ettiquette, and sometimes that doesn't translate well). Having just rewatched the Firefly special features, I'm fairly reassured that Joss will be flattered by any outpouring of fandom. But I do think that when we respond to Joss news items we need to be respectful and articulate if only because being otherwise reflects poorly on Joss' fandom community and Joss himself.
As far as I am concerned Daromaius has apologised and that is the end of the matter. So let it go people.
We already have a reputation as being loyal fanatical, it’s way too late for crossing our collective legs, just lean back and think of England :) I have to say that I always find that attitude towards us highly amusing as this must be the most independent minded, thinking-for-yourself, diverse group of people I have ever met. Which is certainly borne out in the discussion above. Good challenges to each other all round, certainly clarifies ones thinking.

Don’t know about you guys, but emotionally I feel a bit like a recovering addict might feel: I am used to my weekly fix of Joss and one large dose per year simply isn’t enough. Hence I want more. Now.

Of course then the brain kicks in. Because we tend to think in terms of our own reference points and because I have been in business a long time, I always think about those angles and it’s showBIZ after all.

At this moment new business models are emerging all the time within broadcasting which are not only based on achieving the biggest possible audience share, but are based on smaller, loyal fan bases (or in plain words: DVD sales). Indeed I read an interesting article last week, that the whole re-release of the Family Guy is based purely on DVD sales and merchandising and that Fox don’t give a damm what the ratings on TV are going to be.

I am already going on too long, so to make this short: having a committed customer base is good for getting projects greenlit, certainly doesn’t do any harm to a director/writer and the PTBs need to be reminded of said customers fairly regularly.

Kudos to the people who have pointed out that at the end of the day Joss will do only what he wants. Good! Long may he continue with that attitude. I don’t see him ‘selling out’ any day soon, although clearly he has always been very aware of the realities of the world he works in.

Finally just to say there is also a big difference between being loyal and fanatical, which I don’t need to point out to you lot, but is a distinction which seems to be completely wasted on a lot of other people.
As a life long athiest (i really don't remember a time in my life when i did believe in a god of any kind) i found the comment made by Daromaius rather amusing initially, rather than offensive. Ask anyone who knows me and they will tell you that i'm about as far from being a believer in religion as you could hope to meet. I'm not particularly against religion, although i do believe that the world would be a better place without it, that being a totally different debate however. Despite that though, i actually do kinda see his point. Our devotion to Joss, be that with regard to Buffy and Angel, Firefly, Astonishing X-Men or whatever, does border on what some people would consider a religious fanaticism.

Not that i'm suggesting that this is a bad thing however. It's just the way that people are when they find something to believe in. Take the way i see the slayerverse. I've lived my entire life without feeling an attachment to a religion. Because of my interest in various paranormal phenomena i've studied many varied belief systems, from Christianity to the various pantheons that have now been relegated to mythological status, such as the Norse and Greek gods, yet not one of them spoke to me in a way that would prompt me to follow that particular faith. Interesting stories, nothing more.

So why is it that a television show that i know to be a fantasy is able to make me listen? Christians have a faith that allows them to believe in the existence of their god despite having no solid evidence he exists, which is where they draw their strength of belief from. I know that these characters are fictional, i know there aren't really Powers That Be or Senior Partners attempting to control our lives in reality. I know that the entire fictional world from which Buffy, Angel, Spike and the rest come from springs from the imagination of one man. Yet still when i question myself as to whether i'm doing the right thing or not in a given situation i don't turn to a Bible, instead i consider what Buffy would do, or how Angel or Spike would react.

I should point out that i'm not the kind of person who needs a faith, in fact quite the opposite. As a child and a young adult i tended to rebel against any kind of authority, i still do in most cases, and religion always struck me as the ultimate form of control. I have always needed to know that a decision i make is mine and mine alone and that it is my own beliefs and morals that led me to make it, rather than beliefs and morals that have been dictated to me from some ancient set of religious codes. Basically i don't easily believe in anything other than myself. Why is it then that a fictional television series is able to make me stop and think about what other people would do? Why am i influenced by slayers, watchers, witches and vampires with souls?

Maybe Joss has managed to create a modern day religion of sorts, something that those of us who don't easily find faith in a church can discover a message in. Hell, who knows? Maybe the Bible was originally written as a play! ;)
I've sent an e-mail. Although the debate has been interesting, at the end of the day, I believe this idea is a positive way to express my support for Joss and the Whedonverse.
Well in the past we've been compared to Moonies and Navy Seals, so I guess we can have a sense of humor about this characterization of us as well.

Kristen over at E! Online really seemed to enjoy all the thank-yous she got for giving fans an outlet to express themselves. Being a fan herself I think she understands.

Likewise, we've gotten a favorable reception from other online columnists as well. While there may be some off the wall remarks, every fandom has a few crazies, I'm betting that by and large fans are thoughtful, polite and respectful when communicating their love for the 'verse.
I must admit that I have only skimmed through this thread, so I might be missing the point somewhat. However, as someone who does hold religious beliefs and who is required to have a reasonably intimate knowledge of theological teachings in my professional life, I have found nothing offensive in any of the views expressed here.

The Watcher, I found your last message very interesting. Thank you for an excellent read.
Whatever Joss does, I am there! That simple. No more, no less. I am there. I have written about five versions of this post, most somewhere between 500-700 words, but edited them to this: those first six words.

Whatever. Joss. Does. I. Am. There.
Of course we're not religious fanatics. A fanatic is marked by excessive, unreasoning enthusiasm. Our enthusiasm is in direct proportion to the delight Joss brings us. I worship at the church of Joss' imagination. But, of course, I'm a polytheist and worship several people's imaginations.
In regards to the idea that Joss should tell us what his plans are for the next 5 years so we will know what to push for and what to lay-off from...ehhhh...I don’t think so.

1. His job is not to make our lives in fandom easier. He has a few other things to do.

2. He does not need to put himself in a box for our convenience. If you doubt it would be a box, just look at how literally we take anything he says as being The Word forever and ever. (amen?) ;-)

3. Just as an apology given by a child of his or her own free will means more to the recipient than one given because an authority figure tells him or her to, so a group of people independently saying “we want this” means more to a business person than if an interested party is seen as pulling their strings. Joss saying anything more than he did about the Spike TV Movie at a recent convention, for instance, or coming on the internet to say, “You should lobby for this.” would undermine the impact of subsequent fan actions.

It has been pretty well agreed here that Joss is a smart man. He gives us what he wants us to have when he wants us to have it. At this point I see three projects about which he has given us clear actionable information. My interpretation goes something like this.

1. Serenity – Coming out Autumn 2005. We are encouraged to go forth and buzz about it and coerce, I mean persuade, in appropriate and legal ways, our friends, enemies, acquaintances and total strangers to see the movie as well as to go multiple times ourselves.

2. Wonder Woman- A movie that Joss is going to do and is excited about. We are encouraged to get behind the project. So, more buzzing forth for us with the warning that though casting buzz is good early publicity, we need to accept that actual casting will not be anytime soon, and will not include a Buffyverse actress as Wonder Woman.

3. Spike television movie- Joss has said publicly (paraphrasing here)he would like to do this and just needs to hook up with a network to make it happen. By making it a point of announcing that simple thing at a convention, where he knew it would be reported on the internet within minutes, he let loose the hounds. He knows his fans and he knows the Buffyverse fans. He does not say such things lightly.

Bottom line? IMO, I think those who feel that Joss has not given the go ahead to lobby for a Spike TV movie are underestimating him. I think he knew exactly what he was doing and fully expects the fans to take the scent and go howling after the an intelligent, polite, well thought out, sane, fashion, of course.

[ edited by newcj on 2005-04-18 18:48 ]
But, of course, I'm a polytheist and worship several people's imaginations.
Ha! Loved that line Looking!
And some lovely points Watcher, I enjoyed that; I'm kind of where Dashboardprophet is on the side of the fence but thoroughly loved your post. Catalyst2, nicely said! And the sentiment I am sure we all feel. (BTW your gonna love Black Books!)
Last of all Firefly Flanatic, D'oh! How could I miss BattleStar Galactica!
But, of course, I'm a polytheist and worship several people's imaginations."

Dear Joss,

Since you left television, I've been seeing other men. Namely, Ron and Russell. They're both very good but it's not the same. So in my own strange way, I'll always be true to you.

Much fan love and all that,

A Whedonesque Admin

p.s. Can't wait for Serenity.

p.p.s. We'll always have Sunnydale
I'm a BIG JOSS FAN and I'll always be with him.. I'll always watch anything with his signature, which is nice because he is the first writer that I'm fan. Even in my country (Brazil) I'm not fan that much of any TV writer.

I think that Buffy had her time (yeah... I re-watch so much of my DVDs that I just convert them in Divx) and Angel didn't, but... this didn't matter because I feel both shows are over. I just would love if Joss come up with something really knew and exciting... as he says "with his heart in it"... something that make me to wonder for the next week. Of course... something different and occult related.
In regards to the idea that Joss should tell us what his plans are for the next 5 years so we will know what to push for and what to lay-off from...ehhhh...I don’t think so.

I think you may have misunderstood what i meant there, newcj. I didn't make the suggestion based on a some secret plan to manipulate the networks into giving us and Joss what we want. My only interest is in knowing what Joss really wants to be spending his time doing in the next few years.

We know where we stand with the networks, currently we don't seem to matter, that is no secret to any of us. That being the case it really doesn't matter what Joss wants in regard to what we have to do to change things with them. My concern is that we don't push for anything that is going against what Joss wants to do. I'll willingly help to storm the gates of the WB to get them to greenlight a new slayerverse series, if and when i knew Joss wants us to do so, however i would be more enthusiastic about doing that if i knew that the end result was what Joss wanted.

My point being that there is a clear confusion in the Whedon fanbase about what direction to head in. Some are convinced that Joss wants out of television, others believe that the discussion about a potential Spike project is his way of letting us know that he wants back in. The only way that the confusion will be removed is for Joss to clarify where his heart currently lies.

I would agree that it isn't his job to make our lives easier. He has no obligation to come here and tell us what he wants. Given the current state of affairs though, it certainly couldn't hurt the situation if he did.
I'm not asking for Buffy or Angel to be resurrected to be a pale shadow of their former selves. I'm not trying to force Joss into doing something he doesn't want to do.

But even those of us who believe that both Buffy and Angel had amazing runs should admit that there are still possibilities of some aspect of the Buffy-verse re-emerging in another format, whether it be a feature film, TV movie, TV series or otherwise, with the same characters or focusing on only one of them. The point is, there are thousands of untold stories. Even something like Fray or Tales of the Slayers, to list only two random examples, could be adapted to TV or film. There is potential for future ventures into the Buffy-verse, even if you personally don't want to see them, there are those possbilities.

I know that Joss wants to focus on films for the moment, but he has even said that he hasn't closed the door on TV altogether, and definately not on the Buffy-verse. While he isn't actively trying to create a specific Buffy-verse project, he is open to the possibility if certain ideas come to him, or if the right people are involved, or if several events come into perfect alignment. Maybe not this year. Maybe not in the next five years. But there will always be that possibility and I severely doubt that Joss would resent fans hoping for these stories, because he has given us all twelve seasons of entertainment and while that is fantastic, understandably some people are open to seeing more.

I'm not saying Joss needs constant reminders of his brilliance or reassurance from us lowly fans. But what is so wrong with trying to support him in whatever he does, whether it be film work, with Wonderwoman or Firefly or anything else?

I realise that the fan campign to Save Angel didn't exactly achieve its main goal of preventing Angel's cancellation, but this isn't always the case. If J.K. Rowling's first print of Harry Potter and the Philospher's Stone hadn't been so well received by its fans, do you think there would be four more books and four films? Whether it was her publisher who took a risk on printing the book, or the customers who took a chance on purchasing the book, or the fans who generated massive publicity through word of mouth, the content of the book alone wasn't going to make it the phenomenan it is today.

I realise Buffy and Angel aren't as popular as Harry Potter. But if fans hadn't shown their support then they never would have lasted so long. Perhaps one day some form of the Buffy-verse will find the massive popularity and adoration it deserves, but I doubt that this will be spurred on by anyone unless there was a market for it, and we are that market.

Take Serenity, for example. If it performs well at the box office as a result of critical acclaim or word of mouth, then there will be another two films. One of the main reasons people here disagree with campaigning for the Buffy-verse seems to be that they think it won't be effective. But if Serenity was a big success then it will have a lot more fans and a much louder voice, a bigger market that TV and movie execs will suddenly want to tap into. It is entirely possible that the same could happen with a Buffy-verse film.

The only way in which this can happen is if the fans spread the word to their friends and convert them to the shows, and ensure that the right people know that there is enough interest. I'm not saying we should harass Joss or James Marsters or anyone, but letting them know about it is important. Otherwise these potential projects would never come into existance.

I respect that a lot of people seem to disagree with me, but what is wrong with the rest of us sustaining the Buffy-verse as long as we are doing so in an intelligent and dignified manner?

I agree that I don't want to see Buffy or Angel exactly as they were. Buffy in particular ended at the right time, but that doesn't mean that Faith for example couldn't have her own show, which could be completely different from Buffy and an entirely worthy successor.
I don't feel confused about what Joss wants. His heart is with Firefly/Serenity. He plans to keep doing movies for at least the next few years beginning with Wonder Woman. He's willing to hand over the reigns of a Spike movie to a trusted writer/director if he can find a network willing to take it. He's already told us these things.

As for other telemovies or spin-offs, he mentioned them last year before he closed down Mutant Enemy. There hasn't been much talk from him about any of them since then, except for the Spike movie. So I'm not sure exactly where he stands regarding them, but my gut tells me that he's saving his energy for other battles. However, I'm betting he would be open to an offer if a network approached him.

In simple terms, Joss wants to be an employed writer/director/producer. Having a fanbase out there asking to see more of his work is a good thing.
Watcher, I did not misunderstand you, though I obviously did not make myself clear, soooo I'll refer you to what Killinj said above plus this one thing that occured to me.

Joss could probably be really specific and lay his dreams out before us and we would still disagree about what he said and what we should do about it. We're human beings, we do that.

BTW, I love the line "polytheist and worship several people's imaginations."

It made me think and I realized I'm not a worshiper. For me they are more like relationships. I'm not usually an imagination slut, having quickies, mind you. (Though you have to forgive a girl a slight indescretion with a really attractive, fun supposition that you know is shallow but just catches your imagination for a little while.) Generally I have deep meaningful relationships that I can look back on with fondness, even though we have both moved on. Hmmm. Now that I think about it, I also seem to be generally monogomous and more and more long dry spells in between due to my pickiness and lack of time to invest. As this is sounding alarmingly like my relationships with physical humans, I'll get back on subject.

...what killinj just said.
No, actually you were quite clear in your opinion, but you still kinda missed my point, as did killinj to a certain degree.

She says that she does not feel confused in her opinion on what Joss wants to be doing, which is fine and no doubt very true. You yourself seem to have an opinion along the same lines, as do i, as does Simon, as does Willowy, as does Daromaius ...

Problem is that, as sure as we all are that we are correct in our assumptions, we all differ to various degrees on what we are saying. Each one of us in this thread has added our own preferences to what we have heard Joss say in various interviews. Like you said, we are human, we do that kind of thing.

However, if Joss was to come here tomorrow and write a list along the lines of ...

The Joss Whedon (Wants) To Do List.

1. Finish up with Serenity within the next couple of months.
2. Start work on the second year of Astonishing X-Men.
3. Write Wonder Woman.
4. Find a showrunner for the Spike telemovie in time for a 2006 release.
5. Run for President.

All work listed above must be done in the stated order and cannot be altered.

... then i feel we would not be able to confuse the matter quite so easily. It would be there in black and white what Joss's intentions and hopes were and we could accept it as fact. Okay, maybe some would still choose to ignore it in favour of their own wishes but i would imagine that most of us around here would be willing to go along with whatever it was Joss stated.
I don't think repeating what Joss has said he wants to do constitutes an opinion on my part. I didn't supply exact quotes, but he did express the thoughts I expressed in that first paragraph.

However, I do agree with newcj in that even if Joss gave us a list like the one you provided above we would disgree about what it meant and what we should do, if anything, about it. So perhaps when I took what he said I supplied my own meaning.

Words are vessels filled with meaning that are open to interpretation. Joss himself cannot prevent us from arguing over them.

So we try in our own ways to be supportive. Its not like anything we do is going to keep Joss from doing whatever he wants anyway.
Words are vessels filled with meaning that are open to interpretation
that was deep man, very nice.
And newcj, your imagination relationship, monogomous, and slut references; made me laugh hystericlly!
We're a funny lot here, and rather passionate about our Joss!
Watcher, I so agree with your comments on religion. We are so of the same congregation.
Next Joss project? Anything he does is fine by me. I love all his works to date. His works, not those that got ruined by other writers/execs/whoever.
Wonderful, interesting thread. So many passionate opinions, so thoughtfully articulated. That such discussions can go on for so long, and encompass so many viewpoints without bursting into flames, demonstrates once again that this place is pretty special. We all do love the Joss, don't we? (Should he be lurking, I'm certain he has no doubts on that score.)

I'll drop in my penny on the matter, which echoes what many others before me have said much better: Joss will do what he wants. Added to that, we are free (and fortunate) to enjoy the bounty of his creativity, or not, as we wish.

It's been a very nice relationship so far between us and him, and yet it can have its dark side, this love. He's given us these amazing gifts, and the only way we can reasonably respond, since there are so many of us and there's just the one of him, is through an empassioned acceptance of those gifts. Which means we fall in love with his imagination and the worlds inside him, which can in turn lead to our feeling a bit possessive. We want what we want when we want it, but the timetable of his master plan for world entertainment domination (and fun!) isn't ours to dictate.

Even though it's difficult because we all want more of what only Joss can give us, let's try to remember that he's just doing his thing, trying to find his bliss and make a living at the same time. It's hard work, and I respect him so much for tilting at those crazy network windmills for years on end, even when he so often seemed to get kicked in the teeth for his trouble.

So, he was working on TV, now he's working on movies and comics; eventually I expect he'll be on Broadway. It's not to say that I don't miss Buffy (but mostly Angel), because I do, like a freakin' phantom limb, but to paraphrase catalyst2, I don't care what he does, I'm there. Personally, I don't see the harm in sending comments to a columnist to show support for a TV movie, or any of Joss's efforts, so long as they're intelligent, informed and polite. Why not let them know we're out here?

If numbers are all these network people understand, it couldn't hurt for said columnist to mention to certain suits at a certain network that several thousand people wrote in to say they're still interested in seeing more from Joss. Buzz is good. Sounding off about the mere possibility of a Spike movie might not get said movie made, but there's no telling what other projects such a show of devotion and support might help set into motion.

The way I see it, it's not just about the one thing, it's about the whole thing, and we as a group have the power to help direct the conversation regarding Joss by using the media. Whedonverse fans are among the most web-saavy fans out there -- just by writing to a network, or a media columnist, we're affecting the way fandom operates and is regarded by mainstream media and society as a whole.

My stance is, if you feel compelled to write to people and let them know how you feel on this issue, then write with love and passion, and whoever reads it can't fail to be moved if enough of us do the same. It's the idea of 'critical mass': "the minimum amount of fissionable material required to sustain a chain reaction". Contrarywise, if you don't feel compelled to write, then don't. It has to be voluntary, because love is like that, and love is really what we're talking about here.

In a (totally harmless, non-obsessive type nut)shell, I think we care so much about these shows not just because they're clever and funny and cool, but because they're deeply, painfully, exquisitely, compassionately observant of the human condition, of our frailties and strengths as fellow creatures -- who are cursed with the knowledge, while they live, that they have terribly short life spans on this revolving ball -- and they touch us, and we do have a kind of fervent zeal to share that with others, to give them the opportunity to have their eyes opened the way ours have been. I can see how that level of dedication might make us seem a little odd to the 'normal' world. I can also see that the 'normal' world is kinda screwed up, and could definitely use more of what Joss has to offer.

Just whatever, Joss -- whatever, whenever, however you can. Just please keep doing what you're doing, in all its various and sundry permutations, and I guarantee there will be a few million of us out here who will be more than delighted to keep you company on the journey.
5. Run for President.

This is something I wouldn't even wish my worst enemy :)

I find these kind of discussions always very amusing. I wonder what Joss himself thinks of all those initiatives?
I wanted to add to what Wiseblood said about using the media.

If we keep letting the columnists know that we want more, it continues to spread the word and catches the attention of non-fans. And these non-fans have the ability to catch-up on what has gone before, making them new fans. So the snowball continues…

Keeping any talk about Joss in the press is the best thing we can do.

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