And season 5 of Angel was a blessing for him...

In seasons 3 and 4, I found it unbearable. I know Connor was supposed to be the typical troubled teenager, with anger toward his dad and the rest, but this character (and, by extension, the actor, since I only know him through this role) really bored me.

I am quited glad that Kartheiser managed to play something a little different (though still Connor, and only in two shows) in season 5, this allowed me to change the way I consider him.

Le Comité | May 05, 13:41 CET

I to, Le Cormite, did not like Connor before his two episodes in Season 5. I found him worse than Dawn. Who I never really had a problem with until Season 6, when she didn't really have a reason for her constant cry baby routine. Luckily, she redeemed herself too, in Season 7.

I must say though, I thought today that a Connor spin-off could be to college, what Buffy was to high school in seasons 1 through 3. College is all about finding your identity. And who fits that more in a supernatural universe than Connor? He's got a whole set of fake memories to deal with, the adoption by his false family, the being a ''superhero", on top of discovering just what he wants to do with his life. Be a doctor, lawyer, etc., etc., or just go the route of his real father, Angel and fight the good fight.

I'd watch the show, it'd certainly be interesting. Too bad, Connor's fanbase isn't exactly that big, because I'd take the above I described over a Spike spin-off anyday. Not sure, if I'd take it over a Faith spin-off though.

[ edited by BurkleFreak on 2005-05-05 13:25 ]

BurkleFreak | May 05, 15:13 CET

James Marsters is two years older than Joss Whedon, he's 50-something now I think. A spike spinoff just wouldn't work anyways.

RpgActioN | May 05, 15:41 CET

RpgActioN, Joss Whedon is only 41 or 42. Marsters is 42 or 43.

phlebotinin | May 05, 15:56 CET

Rpgaction, James Marsters is 42.

newcj | May 05, 15:57 CET

Before this gets turned into a Spike spinoff debate, remember that this is a thread for posters to wish Vincent happy birthday. So it would be appreciated if we could stick to that.

And 26? Blimey, he doesn't look it lucky sod.

Simon | May 05, 15:58 CET

Damn, had no idea he was only a little bit younger than me, thought he was much younger.
Happy b'day anyway :)

Paul_Rocks | May 05, 16:05 CET

I have gained a new appreciation for the character of Connor and for Vincent as an actor as I've rewatched the whole Angel series again and again. I thought Vincent as Connor showed just the right amount of vulnerability - little slivers of it - mixed in with his huge, warped-by-Qu'ortoth/Holtz rage in seasons three and four. Connor wasn't the typical TV angry teen - he was raised in "an unspeakable Hell dimension....the darkest of the dark worlds" by a crazed, warped father figure who taught him daily to hate Angel and Darla and plan for revenge against them. This went on for sixteen years. No wonder Connor was not particularly likable in that angy-yet-cuddly teen way. Connor less likable than Dawn? Well, yes. The poor guy's soul had been utterly savaged. By the time Angel made his deal with Wolfram & Hart, Connor had only been back in the Angel dimension for what, a year? One could hardly have expected a happy ending in that period of time or god forbid, for Connor to morph into a happy-go-lucky TV snarky teen, a kooky young sidekick for Angel. All his continuing rage and unlikability made sense. I found the Connor storyline uncomfortable, aggravating and tragic but never boring. Connor's tragedy was wrapped up within the larger tragedy of Angel and the continuing ramifications of his Angelus legacy and it worked really well for the series, I thought.

That said, it was wonderful to see Connor happy and coming to terms in "Origin" and "Not Fade Away." Vincent did a great, believable job with this, I thought.

phlebotinin | May 05, 16:23 CET

I never had any doubt that the grating aspects of Connor's personality were exactly what the writers intended. I've always admired Vincent as an actor more because of that. It can't be easy to come into an established show with such beloved characters and rip everything (including our hearts) to shreds.

That he did it so well and handled it so beautifully is a real testament to him. Just the fan reaction alone must have been excruciating.

Totally loved the way Connor came full circle in S5. It was SO worth it.

Thanks, Vincent, and have a great birthday!

brownishcoat | May 05, 16:46 CET

Vincent's portrayal of Connor was perfect, exactly what the writers wanted us to feel. I too, am glad he had a chance in S5 to come in play an angst free teenager.

When I heard him speak about the part during a Q&A I got a hint that he was a little hurt by the 'hate Connor' vibe. When I met him he was charming, polite and took the time (even with a large queue behind ) to speak to me for sometime and look through my portfolio. A lovely man and I wish him all the best for his birthday. (Never have guessed 26!)

The Do That Girl | May 05, 16:54 CET

I simply wish to wish a Happy Birthday to Vincent. And I totally agree with the comments relating how and why there was such a "hate-Connor" vibe. It was intended in my opinion. I have two younger sisters, and how much I hated them during their "finding-their-path" routine... But at the end, you always love them, as much as Angel did :)

pir2 | May 05, 18:10 CET

brownishcoat said:


Couldn't agree more, and I'd say the same thing for Dawn. I always thought those characters achieved exactly what they were intended to, without falling too far into the lame t.v. trap of adding the random kid late in the series to look adorable, say inappropriately wise/funny stuff, and get cake batter all over the kitchen. (okay, maybe they did some of that stuff, but they did it artfully.)

In a rigorous scientific study (well...my asking around after a glass of pinot, or three), i've found that some fans who have younger siblings seem to be much more exasperated and annoyed by the characters of Connor and Dawn, and wish they had never been "born." (hmmm...transferry, much? ;) ) While those of us who are the younger kid, seem to have had less of a hate-on for these two...true, you want to strangle them sometimes, but how real, and how right? As Willow offered, we can't help being the giant spazzes we are. Despite their unnatural origins, they brought about the natural evolutions of our other beloved characters, and did it well.

Happy birthday, Vincent! Loved your work as Connor, and look forward to seeing more of you on stage and screen.

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2005-05-05 17:52 ]

barest_smidgen | May 05, 18:13 CET

I always thought he did an amazing job as Connor. In fact, I really liked Connor even when he was most at odds with the others and a big part of that was just how well Kartheiser played him. I wish him a very happy birthday!

marmoset | May 05, 18:14 CET

barest_smidgen:


I completely agree. As the younger sister, I really sympathized with Dawn. At least during her first season and most of sixth season. They admittedly sort of dropped the ball with her character in the end but in general I thought they really captured the younger child issues well. And I definitely thought that MT did a great job with the character.

marmoset | May 05, 18:21 CET

I agree, barest_smidgen and pir2. My younger sister took much more readily to Connor and Dawn than I did. Yep, I'm the oldest. It took me a rewatching or two to get myself to get step into Dawn and Connor's respective shoes and I was bowled over when I did. Good medicine. I love both characters even at their most grating. How real, how right, indeed.

phlebotinin | May 05, 18:26 CET

I only liked Peter Pan Connor in Season 3, that was really cool. I had high hopes for the character after seeing that but alas, it wasn't meant to be. And I don't really understand why people are always raving about Connor's "rehabilitation" in Season 5. To me, it came way too quick to be believable and felt really contrived. As if someone said, "Hey guys, remember, we've still got to have at least one episode with all-of-a-sudden-happy Connor before the show comes to an end, so that people won't hate him forever!". The contrast between normal Connor and new-and-improved Connor was just too big, and therefore never felt real (yes I know in the story it was partly due to supernatural circumstances, but I mean real to the viewer). Maybe if the change had been more gradual and got some time to develop it would've worked better.

Not that I have anything against Vincent Kartheiser of course, it wasn't his fault. I think he's a fine actor and wish him a very happy birthday.

Storyteller | May 05, 18:56 CET

I was sketchy about Connor and Dawn but thought they were played well. Probably because I'm the family baby.
As far as the "reformed" Connor goes, I thought the switch showed off his acting range somewhat, and it finally made me able to digest the character completely. So I figured it was pretty much done on purpose.

Best of birthdays, Vincent! ;)

WhoIsOmega? | May 05, 19:16 CET

huh. I *always* loved Connor. He's one of my favorite characters on Angel. And I know most of that is because of Vincent's brilliant performance which elevated Connor above the 'troubled teen' cliche. At almost any point in time he is both feral and vulnerable... probably not the easiest thing to portray. :)

Happy b-day!

(and not to get off topic - but isn't it freaky how much John Cassaday looks like Connor???)

miyu_tVP | May 05, 19:45 CET

Happy Birthday Vincent! Best wishes to you!

Lunakitty | May 05, 20:08 CET

Hey, I didn't think of it, but I'm the youngest, too!

brownishcoat | May 05, 20:11 CET

Best of wishes on your birthday, Vincent.

Madhatter | May 05, 21:01 CET

Wow! Today's my (18th) birthday too!

Happy Birthday Vincent!

polo | May 05, 23:31 CET

Happy Birthday Vincent, and Polo, who by her profile hails from Manchester, England....film place of "Shameless" none the less! You lucky lucky woman!

Apocalypse | May 05, 23:35 CET

I'm an older sib and I loved his character and hated Dawn -- what does that make me? I'm pretty sure I liked Connor because he was played by such a good actor, so happy birthday, Mr. Kartheiser!

dottikin | May 05, 23:36 CET

Happy Birthday, Vincent - and Polo! I too am a fan of Vincent's portrayal of Connor and agree with Phlebotinin and Brownishcoat in their assessments of the character and the writers' intentions. Under Connor's anger and bitterness, there seemed to be not only a hint of vulnerability, but of bewilderment about his role in life and what would happen to him - what would be left of him - if he let go of the hatred bred in him by Holtz.

I am a younger sibling who didn't have any problem understanding Dawn's behaviour. (And it's my first post on Whedonesque.)

samatwitch | May 06, 03:46 CET

brownishcoat, phlebotinin, et. al., I totally agree...Vincent's portrayal of Connor was perfect, just perfect...a totally new take on the tormented teen...supernatural, but natural, and totally believable...and when we see Angel eavesdropping on the now-normal Connor and his family...and we realize that Angel has given away his son...as he gave away a human relationship with Buffy...we realize the depth of his sacrifice and the full scope of this hero's determination to do what is righteous. Simply amazing.

And Vincent was marvelous as Connor...happy birthday, fella!

Hello, samatwitch...welcome, and come back soon!

Chris inVirginia | May 06, 05:15 CET

barest_smidgen. What an interesting theory. My hubbby who is the oldes of 4 brothers HATES Connor. In fact he would like to start the "I hate Connor" club. I for one, being the baby of my family, LOVE Connor. His character is one of the most tragic Whedon characters there is. The poor soul group up in a hell deminsion for christ sake. I'm with Chris inVirginia...Vincent's portrayal of Connor was PERFECT. I was content with how the writers left his story line in Home, but I was absolutely blissful with Origins. It was so comforting to see this normal kid, it brought tears to my eyes. Bravo, Vincent, Bravo....and you don't look a day over 21 you cutie pie.

Harmalicious | May 06, 07:18 CET

Happy birthday, Vincent! I've always enjoyed your portrayal of Connor, especially in Angel S5. IMHO Connor is one of the most compelling characters from the Slayerverse. :)

kipron | May 06, 12:13 CET

Happy Birthday, Vincent! Congratulations, in keeping with the many comments above, for how well you portrayed Connor!

I always appreciated Vincent’s portrayal of Connor irrespective (or perhaps because) of how I felt about the character at various times. I also found the scenes with Connor in season 5 a real joy (and quite believable IMO given the supernatural context).

Whenever I get to speculating as to how the writers might have got the gang out of the alley alive (in readiness for season 6) I picture Connor as having a significant role to play. Well adjusted Connor leaving Angel in W&H as he did meant there was lots of scope for that. My favourite scenario involves Connor calling Willow, or better still, Faith (both of whom he now remembers from season 4 when their joint efforts restored Angel’s soul) and she/they make sure that help is at hand despite whatever Giles/Buffy or the new Council may have to say. I love the idea of him being the saviour, and preferably of his own initiative rather than via a message or task given him by Angel.

[ edited by purplehazel on 2005-05-06 14:39 ]

purplehazel | May 06, 16:03 CET

Thanks Apocalypse and samatwitch!

(and Manchester rocks!)

polo | May 06, 23:55 CET