(SPOILER)
Loads of spoiler laden Serenity reviews at AICN.
One of these reviews has the major spoilers for the movie. Hard-core spoiler fans can discuss in them in this thread, spoiler-lite and spoiler-free fans stay away.
Well seeing as more and more people have seen the movie, it's going to be hard for people not to talk about what happens. And I'd rather read what our posters have to say here than trapse off to another site. So yes you can discuss the major spoilers (and your reactions to them) here but not anywhere else.
kittyholmes | May 06, 12:40 CET
I loved it. I want to see it again right now. I won't repeat what I've said in the other two threads, but I had to say that I am simultaneously ecstatic and devastated. Even in this spoiler heavy thread, I don't want to specify why. Partly because it thoroughly depresses me just to think about typing it. Those who have seen the movie know what I'm talking about. I actually leapt forward in my seat and shouted, NO!!! As did several others. It is two in the morning, I am emotionally drained, yet wide awake. I'm so screwed at work tomorrow.
Angela | May 06, 12:53 CET
I was in the SF showing with kittyholmes. And the movie kicked all kinds of ass. And I will tell all my friends to see it. But....
My favorite character was Wash. He was me. Not a hero. Not a doctor. Not a captain or a thug or a leader. He was the guy I coulda been.
And he died. For no reason.
Personally, I was so upset by his death, it cast a pall over the rest of the film.
The part that grates on me is that it was totally unnecessary. I was in the moment, baby. I knew this was dire. I just saw the ship, our beloved ship, crash land, breaking into bits. I saw Book die before that. I knew that we were playing for keeps here.
Killing Wash was just the bridge too far. It didn't serve the plot in any way. I just came off, frankly, like a "fuck you" to the fans.
People coming into the movie who didn't watch the series probably won't care. It'll just serve as another dramatic note.
But for those of us who followed Firefly, the ones Joss praised in his opening for bringing this movie to life, it's a heart-crushing move.
I understand that sometimes good stories require a little heart-crushing. But this wasn't that kind of moment. This was just pointless.
Before tonight, I was excited about the possibility of a Serenity sequel. Knowing that Wash won't be in it, I have to say, I'm much less excited about that.
My favorite character is dead.
fraying | May 06, 12:55 CET
I don't think that it was meaningless, nor did I see it as a "fuck you" to the fans. I understand it. Mostly. It was just gut-wrenching. I was laughing, and suddenly I gasped, shouted "NO!" and was crying, before I had even completely stopped laughing.
If you are a Joss fan that also watched Buffy and/or Angel, then you have been through some very painful losses before, so I hope that you can get to the point where you can be as excited for a sequel as you otherwise would have been. Because we really need. Must have. Absolutely require. Sequels. Plural.
Angela | May 06, 13:01 CET
AlephNull | May 06, 13:04 CET
I'm normally a fan of grim and dark, but I have discovered the limit of the grit I can handle. I can respect the decision to make this movie the way it was made. What I can't seem to do is actually enjoy it.
It's a very good movie, but I didn't have a good time. I wish I could report differently. Maybe I'll feel better in the morning.
shoshanna | May 06, 13:05 CET
A lot of Firefly fans will be upset. But it's not Firefly on screen, it's a whole new ball game. The question I'd like to know is, would Joss have done the same thing had Firefly not been cancelled?
Simon | May 06, 13:07 CET
Second, I’m sort of re-posting from the spoiler-free thread, but I think it’s worth repeating myself. If you haven’t seen the movie, do not read the spoilers. A movie like Serenity doesn’t come along very often, and you’re going to cheat yourself out of one hell of a show if you read the spoilers before watchin the movie.
That being said, aside from the darker tone, I was pretty impressed to see that the characters made it onto the big screen pretty much unchanged. I guess the exception was Simon (who is a lot more confrontational) but I can see how changing his personality a bit helped move the story along.
I really hope Joss keeps the raunchy lines from Kaylee firefly and Jayne in the final cut. Those are classic.
There are some big things that I didn’t see coming at all (which is as cool as it is rare in movies these days), but there were a few things that were kind of predictable (Mal leading the Reavers into the Alliance armada and River kicking everyone’s ass at the end). These are both great payoff scenes, but I don’t know if they raise the bar for moviemaking the way the rest of Serenity does.
Finally, Wash has some funny lines, but I didn’t think they were quite on the same level as his stuff from the TV show.
fr0g | May 06, 13:08 CET
AlephNull | May 06, 13:09 CET
It's just sad to see a rich character go before their time. If there's a sequel, who'll deliver the funny sarcastic line? Where will the relationship that explores marriage be?
fraying | May 06, 13:10 CET
When Wash dies after svaing everybody onboard Serenity, all bets are off. Anyone could be next. If at this point in the film, if you were still AWARE you were watching a FILM - you know, as ENTERTAINMENT -this is where it becomes REAL. It MANIFESTS and REVERBERATES. I have never been more in the moment, felt more present, more INVESTED in the outcome of a story.
It's masterful, really. Give it some time, get over your shock, see it again (and again. and again.) and see if you don't agree. I'll wait.
misterblue | May 06, 13:12 CET
But I really have to say his death made the movie stronger. I was on the edge of my seat during that last battle – and that hasn’t happened since I was a kid. My heart was pounding like I was there in the corridor with Jayne, Zoe, and the rest. And I think big part of it was the fear that any one of those characters (well developed characters that I really care about) could die at any moment.
The way I see it, Wash's death made that feeling of urgency possible.
fr0g | May 06, 13:18 CET
shoshanna | May 06, 13:20 CET
What I was trying to say was: I was already in the spirit of all those BIG WORDS you used. It was already real. And yes, masterful, etc.
But, for me, it threw me out of the experience. It made me care less about the characters, not more.
And he was my favorite character. And I just got home. So, like, lemme vent, ok?
fraying | May 06, 13:21 CET
Oh also -- anyone notice Shakespeare banging down the door of this movie? ;) The Tempest is all over it. I gotta go reread that before September. <3
orphea | May 06, 13:24 CET
fr0g | May 06, 13:26 CET
Apocalypse | May 06, 13:46 CET
Always thought the show started out with too large a cast anyway and that it only made sense if Joss where going to make us like them, feel for them and then have them die in front of our tearstained eyes, sounds a bit like that is what happened in the film.
Now may I suggest some pre-screenings in Scandinavia or at least a very early BDDVD release ?
Simon, I do seem to remember reading that the two cast members in question only did have limited time for the film due to scheduling problems, need I say that I like how Joss resolved the problem.
[ edited by jpr on 2005-05-06 12:13 ]
jpr | May 06, 14:00 CET
River was phenomenal, but I was totally engrossed with Malcolm Reynolds. He was just unlike any leader you've ever scene. He's direct, confrontational and lethal when he needs to be. We learn a lot more of his character from his interactions with The Operative, whom by the way was just as equally phenomenal. That man is a monster, and he has no dillusions of being one.
I did crack up at the early scenes of Mal and Inara. Too funny. Simon and Kaylee... Sigh. Book... *cries*
Mack | May 06, 14:19 CET
But.
There's always a "but".
I dunno, I sort of have to go on the side of the "Wha..?" crowd, re: Wash's death. I mean, it hit so damned hard, there's no denying that. With the whole leaf thing and arg. ("Your shirt?" anyone?) But at the end of it all, it really did feel pointless to me -- I'm talking Anya's death pointless. I couldn't get over the feeling that the main reason it was there was just say, "See? Things are SCARY and DANGEROUS." But really, for that final scene? I think seeing Wash die not too long before made it all the more surreal for me. I didn't think it was more likely that characters were going to die, I thought it was less.
I actually felt an eye-roll coming on during the big battle: Zoe sliced, Jayne shot, Kaylee poisoned, Simon shot, Mal freakin' shot and stabbed and broken and what the hell. My thought by that point was, "Christ, will anybody be left for a sequel?", and not in an I'm-actually-afraid way. It felt all overdone, and that for me was really quite disappointing for a movie that was so damned perfect up to that point. What's more, as fraying said, the film hit a dip right then and never fully recovered. The laughs weren't so from the diaphragm, the whooping and hollering a bit more subdued. After the final applause died down, the excited buzz we had before the movie started should've quadrupled ... instead, it had dropped to a drone.
I can't help but think that killing Wash was an error. I can sort of understand Book -- his story always struck me as one that was being created to stretch out over seasons. Firefly didn't get that, and neither will Serenity. And with (at best?) a trilogy, there simply won't be enough time to devote to Book's story. So okay, trim the character out. Let his death serve to spur Mal into doing what he needs to. But what does Wash's death do? Make Zoe more resolute? (Cuz that's what she needed.) I can't say that I see anything coming out of this, and I'm going to guess that by the next movie (which I am already ready for, thanks), his memory will be a few plastic dinosaurs on the control panel and one, maybe two scenes of slight melancholia from Zoe when no one's looking.
If anyone can prove me wrong, it's Joss, but ...
There's that "but" again.
So yeah. Mark me down in the "it was a bad, bad idea" camp. It felt cheap then, and a few hours later, it still feels pretty cheap.
Those first two hours or so, though? So much love. This really is a great movie. I just wish I could say it was the perfect one I think it was so close to being.
Jet Wolf | May 06, 15:02 CET
I'm having flashbacks of the final scene from "The Message", and that mourning music, and all the crew together, and now there's that little scene from the trailer, where Wash' said "Oh god, oh god we're all gonna die". Gotta say that I already have tear in my eyes. I had the same feeling during "The Body", the same feeling when we lost Tara and also Fred. It's early for this, but hopefully we'll have Alan and Joss commenting on Wash's death in the DVD.
I just had a hard time going through a class an hour ago, right after I read the first reports.
I can't wait to see the movie. Hope it's really worth watching several times, cause that's what I'm planning to do, when November 11th, comes around here.
Numfar PTB | May 06, 17:38 CET
I'll miss the character, yes, but if there's a second one I'm certain his presence will be felt. Plus, the actor's film career has kind of taken off since the show's production concluded, so who's to say he'd have even been available (or even would've wanted) to reprise the role again? Better to leave it like this than find some silly way to write him out ("Oh, he's delivering grain to the Omega Alpha XVI outpost.").
I know it sucks for you guys and I feel your pain, but I disagree that it was as cheap and pointless as you guys are suggesting.
Just my two cents. :)
DarqueGuy | May 06, 18:20 CET
That said, the one thing that worries me is how this movie will go over with non-Firefly fans. The main thing that concerns me is that in a two-hour movie, there just isn't enough time for character development or depth (as one person mentioned in another thread, I doubt most non-fans would have any clue from the movie what Inara even does for a living), and that means that the deaths would have less impact as well. If all I knew of these people and this world was the movie, I don't think Book's death, in particular, and Wash's death, to a slightly lesser degree, would carry much emotional power. You just haven't gotten to know either of them that well. Wash gets a few goofy lines, but nothing that really shows who he is, what his marriage to Zoe is like, or the heroism that's beneath his outward cowardliness. Shepard Book we dont' get to know at all, and his even being included in the film felt like more like it was there for fans than for the movie itself. He doesn't serve much of a purpose (The destruction of his city certainly does, but there just isn't any time for the audience to have any clue what he, in particular, means to the Serenity crew).
Anyhow, none of that has any bearing on what *I* felt about the movie. But it does make me worry this will be a slightly less great experience for people without the character familiarity and investment. Still, I think the plot, acting, drama, and humor are far above your average sci-fi action movie, so hopefully there's plenty for even non-Firefly people to take away.
acp | May 06, 18:22 CET
I'm saddened by Wash's death. My sig over on FFF.net is "Did he just go crazy and fall asleep?" Since we all know Joss's way so well, we should've known.
If there is overwhelming negativity about this one thing above all else, is there a possibility that they'd change the outcome? Seems to me that's what test screenings are for, to find out what works and what doesn't.
Willowy | May 06, 18:32 CET
As for Book - they allude to his backstory. And he makes a comment along the lines of "I wasn't always a shepard, you know." But when Mal tries to probe further, it becomes clear he isn't going to spill any secrets. I was disappointed about that too - one of those mysteries I've been curious about. I figured they wouldn't address it in this film - you can only do so much in 2 hours - but I hoped it would come up in a future one. I suppose it still could, with flashbacks or an earlier setting, but I have a feeling it may remain a mystery.
acp | May 06, 18:47 CET
Wash's death was shocking to me. I knew that they were plans for sequals, but Wash's death started me wondering if anyone would survive. The group of people with me were worried for the whole crew. For a time, it didn't look like there was any way to survive. As much I hated Wash's death (not to mention Wesley's), it certainly did draw me further into the movie and leave me wide eyed at the possibilities. I loved this movie.
Tell everyone you know. While it's too late for people on this thread, run away from spoilers. You may think that spoilers can't ruin the movie for you, and that may be true, but it still won't be near as good a movie for you as if you go in unspoiled. Too much good stuff goes on, make sure your friends get the full experience, keep them away from the spoilers.
JoshuaWilhoyte | May 06, 18:50 CET
Spoilers are awesome! Many cheery thanks to the PTB here for allowing this thread!
I've read all over the place but didn't see the answer to this question: Did they show what Inara's hypo was all about?
Willowy | May 06, 19:10 CET
God I love Joss Whedon, no one makes me care about made up people more than him.
Kerec | May 06, 19:10 CET
Willowy: that doesn't figure into this story at all. That's not to say Inara doesn't have any tricks up her sleeve, though.
teradia | May 06, 19:19 CET
This film blew me away.
MindPieces | May 06, 19:20 CET
First, my thoughts. I am a huge Firefly fan and have watched the episodes numerous times. I try to convert everyone I know. I find that the writing and characters are the best I have ever seen on tv.
For me the movie was very good but very disappointing at the same time. The death scenes were the most obvious thing that bothered me. They didn't really serve a purpose in either case. This is of course opinion and others will argue that they upped the stakes or created the atmosphere at the end of the movie. To me, they were there to just try and say "hey, this isn't the tv show".
On a personal level, I suppose it's the finality of it all. I can't help but think that these deaths were too much the result of Fox canceling the show and Joss not being sure if there would be a sequel. I actually think the deaths really hurt the chances of more movies. The finality of it means I won't seeing this more than once more in the theater. As much as I did enjoy parts of it, it's just too much of a downer.
Another big problem is this movie is not that accessible to the new person walking in. The Chinese isn't eplained and will probably leave people scratching their heads. New people won't be familiar with Wash or Book so the deaths will be fairly meaningless. Also, since there is no reset button (supernatural theme so death is not always final) like in Buffy or Angel, it will be hard to ever explore the great Book backstory. It's alluded to but I really wanted to know more.
As usual with Joss, the writing and concepts are top notch. The interaction between Mal and the operative is fascinating. As is many other elements of the characters. I fear a lot of this will be wasted on moviegoers expecting to see and Episode III clone.
All in all, I find my self very conflicted. Some parts of this movie work really well and others just leave me with a stomach ache. I have to agree with what someone else here said in that the deaths really did seem aimed straight at the hardcore fans. I wonder what will happen after the initial excitement wears off and people realize just how changed our Verse is. The part I hate is that it could have been changed because of the cancelation of the show and the uncertainty of sequels. I hated that Angel Season 5 was dictated by the cancelation and this feels very much the same.
Now for another perspective. My friend that came along with had some interesting thoughts. He has watched the episodes once and really liked the show. The first thing he said out of the theater is "there's now way that's the movie they show in September." He is absoltuely positive that it's going to be changed. He liked what he saw but said that it felt more like a long episode and that new people are going to be lost.
I do think this is going to be a tough sell for new people and too heartbreaking for old fans. Both of those factors are going to keep people out of the theaters in regards to multiple showing. I am sure those that are devoted to seeing it multiple times to boost sales will still go but for personal it's just to tragic to see more than once.
So in closing, I loved it and I hated it but I probably won't be back. Part of me wants to just close the Verse with Objects in Space and use the movie as something that could hav emaybe happened. YMMV.
[ edited by munn75 on 2005-05-06 17:33 ]
[ edited by munn75 on 2005-05-06 17:34 ]
munn75 | May 06, 19:30 CET
I agree with you on some of the other points, though – that the deaths will be fairly meaningless to new people, and that a number of things will leave them confused. I don't think the possibility of Book's backstory being explained in a future movie is out of the question – movies have flashbacks just as frequently as TV shows do :-) – but the bigger question to me is whether the movie will have enough success to generate a sequel. We'll have to see... Fans are going to love this, and hopefully non-fans will too, but there is a small part of me that agrees with your friend that as it is now, it's like a long, really packed episode that will leave new folks confused. I hope I'm wrong. I'll definitely try and get people into the theater!
acp | May 06, 19:40 CET
Willowy | May 06, 20:01 CET
The movie works very well for those that have seen the show. The benfits for long time viewers are:
They understand the backstory of River in more detail. They understand the Chinese/English culture. They are already familiar with the war, the Alliance and the Browncoats. They already know Book and Walsh. They have already seen the interaction between Mal and Inara. They see Simon's devotion to River. There are obviously other things as well. Some of these things are covered in minor detail in the movie but I still think some people are going to be lost.
Also things have changed. No bluehand guys. Reaver origins changed making the Bushwacked seem a little strange. I always took that in Bushwacked, the man went crazy from being around reavers but now the reavers have a different origin. I guess you could still go crazy seeing all of that but it doesn't seem that it makes sense completely.
This movie is really aimed at fans. I think the hope is that others will see the movie and then go out and buy the dvds.
munn75 | May 06, 20:29 CET
I can't think of another movie I've seen that was spawned by a TV show. Did anyone see the X-Files movie, or Scoobie Doo? Maybe they all work this way - that they have to assume a certain amount of knowledge. I guess most comic book movies have an immense backstory going in as well, but most of them seem to spend a significant amount of time developing their characters, even so. Then again, I might be coming at it differently because my normal movie tastes don't lean to action/comic book/sci-fi so much as dramas and indies, which are usually much less about the action and all about the characters. There's still plenty for newcomers to love here – great plot, great action, great humor and twists. I think it's just because I DO know so much about these characters, and love the depth that Joss gave them in the series, that I'm a little sad it doesn't all come through here. Still, I can't think of any way around that. In two hours, there's only so much you can do, especially if you have a big story line to advance, and nine main characters to deal with.
And – please note that none of this means I was disappointed with the film at all. I loved it. I think almost everyone on here will love it (except for maybe a few for whom the deaths ruin it). It's just as I get more distance from it, I find myself speculating more about how it'll play to a mainstream audience. And the answer is... I just don't know.
acp | May 06, 20:39 CET
It looks like the number one reason people are using for why it was A Good Thing is that it made you genuinely concerned for the other characters. It said, This is real! This is dangerous stuff! Those are valid points, so I thought about them, but I still can't buy it.
I already talked about how with the death of two characters before the Big Damn Fight I was actually less concerned for the fate of anybody, so I'll hit some other points instead.
I'm going to hazard a guess and say that anybody who's a Firefly fan is also probably a Joss Whedon fan. Being a Joss Whedon fan, you're probably also well acquainted with his other works. That said, did anybody actually need a death to fear for any one of the characters? Hell, I hear Joss's name on the credits, I'm gonna pretty much assume ahead of time that they won't all make it out alive. I don't need to be taught that lesson, cuz twelve years in the Buffyverse did that pretty well for me.
But of course, we hope that not everybody going to see this is a pre-established Firefly or Joss Whedon fan. So attempting to disconnect myself from the fandom, I thought some more. And I think it still fails.
The mission to Mr. Universe only really began to feel like a suicide run about the time Serenity was crashing. Up to that point, the crew had pretty much every hope that the Reavers and the Alliance would cut each other to shreds, they could land, deliver the Holographic iMac of Awakening and run away again. What turned that up a notch was the crew being pinned down by the Reavers. By that point, Wash was already dead, and we come back to the part where (at least for me) I'd seen enough dead heroes to not fear for the ones we had left.
So then it comes to emotional resonance, and here's where I think the movie makes its huge stumble. It's so packed that if you don't have the advantage of 14 hours under your belt, I can't really see you caring all that much that Wash just got skewered. He was likely "oh yeah, the sort of funny pilot guy". He hardly got any screen time at all (which I don't especially fault -- see above, re: packed), and even less of that was meaningful. He can't even stand out as "the funny one" because the whole movie is so consistently producing laughs that he just gets lost somewhere in there. At the end of it all, I can't see anybody who didn't already care about Wash really caring that he died, and that more than anything is going to make the death feel gratuitous to the newly initiated. They won't care about him any more than they care about Mr. Universe (who I almost just typed as "Mr. Universal" ... huh, I think I just figured out where that name came from.) or the very stupid villager from the beginning, or any random person who gets killed in the film. That's a waste.
I really think that death could and should happen, but it should be meaningful. The more I think about it, the more I strongly believe that if Wash needed to die, it should've come in the sequel. Hell, do it early on if there are actor issues. But there would've been enough time to a) establish a reason the non-knowing audience should care, and b) give room throughout the remainder of the movie for that death to have reactions (where appropriate).
This first movie should leave a weighty sense of all we've seen, but the audience should feel good about it at the end. If they want to turn this into a franchise, then I can't stress enough how important I think that point is. As Joss himself said, the people who are going to make this work are the ones who made it work in the first place: the fans. I would neither believe nor suggest that those fans should be pandered to, but that in the breakdown, I feel Wash's death subtracted a whole lot more than it added.
Note that I say all of the above not being a particularly huge Wash fan myself. I liked him, sure, but wouldn't at all list him as a favourite character. I don't (and didn't at the time) feel any real personal pain at his death. More than anything, I just can't help but think this was a death of "shock value" more than anything else. That disappoints me because Joss (and this movie) is better than that.
Jet Wolf | May 06, 20:48 CET
Oh, and just to reiterate, I really did love the movie. Joss may not know it, but he and I quibble all the time. ;) I just find this immensely frustrating because it was so, so close to giving me nothing to quibble about at all, but then it took that (IMO) huge misstep, and here we are.
But I did and still do love the movie, and will be right out there encouraging and cajoling with the rest. I can't help but fear, however, that there's going to be a fan division on this, and that concerns me because the push for a sequel could very well be negatively impacted as a result. Ideally after Serenity, we should all be coming together, not splintering, which I suspect is going to happen. It'd be arguably worth it I could get behind the event(s) that caused it, but ... <gestures to above ramblings>
Jet Wolf | May 06, 20:59 CET
(and I mean this as constructive criticism)
I was a bit skeptical that Mal could do all the fighting and moving around he did after being run through.
It did seem like too many people were getting shot up at the end. I’d have a couple of people (maybe Zoe and Jayne – the two doing most of the fighting) get badly wounded, adding Mal and Simon in there seemed a bit over the top.
Also, is Simon supposed to sew everyone up after being shot in the chest or does the Alliance do that?
The first sequence showing the crew after they cut away from the Operative (at the beginning of the movie) was a bit forced. It didn’t seem like the most artful way to introduce the characters.
At the beginning when reavers are chasing Mal, Zoe, and others on the hover car, and Wash flies out to pick them up with Serenity, are they flying toward each other? It seems like the hover car would be going too fast (relative to Serenity) to stop in time.
fr0g | May 06, 21:00 CET
You cannot expect a small band of misfits to take on the Alliance and not have some serious damage. Personally seeing Serenity hurt so much was enough pain for me, and I was sobbing on and off through the rest of the film (pretty much every time I saw Zoe's face....I'm starting to cry again just remembering it).
But I do feel that the tragedy makes the film strong, and underlines how much they achieved.
Oh, and Willowy? No word on Anara, she is in the show and has some wonderful scenes, but her story isn't told. Some people in the audience (non Firefly fans) didn't even know what her occupation was, altho Joss did cover it briefly. This will have to wait for the sequal, and I really hope there is a sequal!
I wanted to say further, it is really clear that Joss had a burning need to tell this story. He started so many different threads in 'Firefly' that went unresolved and I could see that it was killing him to not let us know about the Reavers (which I thought was totally brilliant BTW!). I really loved this film, but as happy as I am about it, I am still in mourning.
embers | May 06, 21:11 CET
I like dark. I like pain. I understand that for drama to work, bad things have to happen. But if 12 hours later I'm still feeling glum and bleak, this is not a movie I can recommend to all my friends without a disclaimer.
I need a hug.
shoshanna | May 06, 21:16 CET
And to echo a lot of other people on Wash's death: it was a really, really powerful moment for me. I mean, just the pure shock of it, and then the fact that we don't have time to linger, because holy crap the reavers are everywhere, and then everyone realizing slowly what's happened. I dunno, I thought it was well done and really helped the movie, and I really did expect more people to die (not least because of all the other similarities to "The Wild Bunch")
I guess we can see more clearly now why Joss has been like "Sequel? Why is everyone talking about sequels?" He's right: his primary responsibility is to make a Big Damn Movie that rocks the worlds of people who see it, and he really, really succeeds. Setting up sequels is only secondary, at best.
This is one of those movies that I really liked when I saw it, but which I actually like more and more as I remember it and think about it. I'm definitely going again (and again) in September, and will drag as many people along as can fit in my car.
Since we know that Joss had to rewrite the script for it to work better as the start -- not the end -- of a franchise, I have to wonder: is there a draft where *everyone* dies?
[ edited by bobothebrave on 2005-05-06 19:35 ]
bobothebrave | May 06, 21:29 CET
From what I've read on the official Serenity movie site forums, it seems like some fans have had several seasons worth of Jossness pumped into them in the space of two hours and they didn't see it coming. I'm already seen posts by a small minority of fans saying "Boycott this movie" and "Sign my petition to Save Wash". All of which should come as no suprise to hardened Whedon watchers who saw it all before with Tara, Cordy etc. What ever Joss did, it wasn't going to please all the fans. He had a vision and stuck to it. And fair play to him for doing that.
Simon | May 06, 21:29 CET
[ edited by fr0g on 2005-05-06 19:32 ]
[ edited by fr0g on 2005-05-06 19:34 ]
fr0g | May 06, 21:31 CET
MalContent | May 06, 21:37 CET
bobothebrave | May 06, 21:47 CET
It's really not the deaths themselves that are bothering me, it's the tone of the whole thing. I understand that the movie takes a vastly different approach to this story than the show does: less character interaction, more grit. Less fun, more pain. These are a valid artistic choices. I wish I could enjoy the results more.
shoshanna | May 06, 21:57 CET
Okay, after a small, itty bitty amount of sleep, I've been revisiting my feelings this morning.
My heart is heavy. Still. This death (There. I said it.) has hit me harder than any other he has delivered me. And I was a blubbering idiot over several through the course of Buffy and Angel. Part of what makes it so hard is time. There is less time in a movie. Very little time for the characters to grieve, if any. And thus very little time for me to have that cathartic experience of grieving with them. We all had to rush ahead. I was on the edge of my seat from that point forward, so it did not make me think that everyone was safe at that point - I had the opposite reaction and worried about everyone. However, Wash's death will not resonate as deeply with those unfamiliar with Firefly, so they are not going to feel, well robbed, like some do. Wash was the price, and there always is one. And we have to remember that while we are mighty, we need the uninitiated too. And for many, that will be their first Whedon Death. Sufficiently sudden, heartbreaking, and significant. They will feel the loss. Just not quite to the curled-up-in-a-ball-crying-themselves-to-sleep kinda way that I did. While I'm still miserable over his death, I would not have reacted any better if it had been anyone else either. Those previously unfamiliar with Joss and his work learned what we knew a long time ago - no one is safe. I have no doubt that Joss took the killing of Wash very, very seriously. And it did make it clear that this is something different. This is not Firefly the Movie. This is Serenity. And there *is* a difference.
Jet Wolf - I am concerned over the divisions in the fandom as well. I quick look at the Browncoats thread, and here, is enough to worry me quite a bit. It would be fantastic, if we could do as Joss said, along the lines of, "If you don't like this movie, now would be a quiet time." I don't mean here, with other fans of his. But with the uninitiated. I'm already hearing people say they don't want to recommend it to anyone based on their own reaction, and that is disheartening to say the least. We ARE the signal people. We must tell the world.
[ edited by Angela on 2005-05-06 20:03 ]
Angela | May 06, 22:00 CET
bobothebrave | May 06, 22:01 CET
If you look around today, nobody is saying "this movie sucked." At worst, a few are saying, "there's a flaw in this precious gem!"
That's success, baby.
I loved this movie, even if there were parts I didn't like. I will see it again and again. Better than Cats. Etc.
But, please, we're not in a cult here. We don't have to all agree. And just because someone has a different opinion than you, it doesn't mean they didn't get it. It means they have their own brain.
We're all here because we love Whedon's work. The rest is details.
fraying | May 06, 22:09 CET
I love Joss. I think the world is a better place for him and his ideas. I think he is inspiring (to the fandom at large and definitely to me personally). I think he is a voice that is so very needed in today's world of vapid brain candy. I think he is a funny, talented, brilliant man.
Emphasis on "man".
He's not perfect, and I think he'd be the first to say so, Okay, maybe not. But the point is, he's just a man and he makes mistakes. I wouldn't for a second tell him that he couldn't do with his world as he sees fit, or suggest that he shouldn't remain true to his vision, but just as that is his right -- his responsiblity -- so too do I feel that it's mine as a fan to call him on it when I think he's messed up.
Joss, I think you messed up.
There, that wasn't so hard. Still love me? You too.
If Joss ... hell, if Firefly and Serenity have taught us anything, it's that we have to think for ourselves. If we don't do that, we're just part of the puppet theater.
The day that happens, then everything Whedonesque dies.
Jet Wolf | May 06, 22:18 CET
Anyways, that's my opinion. I loved the movie and plan take as many people to see it as I can come September the 30th.
CrazyMutha29 | May 06, 22:19 CET
[ edited by Angela on 2005-05-06 20:22 ]
Angela | May 06, 22:22 CET
One thing that occurs to me through all the brouhaha? Knowing how Joss hates spoilers, how could he not see this coming, especially when information spreads like wildfire at the click of a mouse? You can't keep a lid on the news of the deaths of two beloved characters, especially for so many months before the actual release. Maybe what we saw won't be the "real" movie at all.
And what did Book tell Mal? Believe? As a Jossfan, I choose to do just that. I might not always like what happens to characters I care about (I still can't see any Buffy eps with Tara in them without experiencing a very real pang of grief), but I will always be there to see what happens next.
One more thing - (maybe it's the ONE hour of sleep-fatigue talkin' here, but) - I want to express my gratitude and admiration for this board, the mods, and all the members. This is a good ship.
m'cookies actual | May 06, 22:27 CET
I will say that the crew seems to have the constitution of vampires. They get shot and stabbed and kicked and thrown about and no permanent damage.
And treading lightly into personal observations about the actors' looks. I was disappointed that Kaylee seems to look more actressy and less like she did on the show.
lycoming | May 06, 22:37 CET
- I've never been one for the "Joss hates women" camp. Actually, I've vehemently argued that he just *can't*... but in reading speculation on Serenity before I saw it, a lot of people were saying "I fear for Zoe -- a strong woman who's happily married and wants a baby? She's doomed." And so, during the movie, I was thinking he won't kill Zoe, he won't kill Zoe. But then Wash bites it (*totally* a "your shirt" moment, whoever said that) and I realized that although Zoe wasn't KILLED, she was PUNISHED. I understand that there are no happy endings, but, yo: they didn't give Wash a lot to do in the movie (other than the ubiquitous comic relief) and then they offed him. Wash was just... dead. Zoe, though, (I think) was punished. How are first time viewers going to get the context? Or will his death just wind up being a shallow tearjerk moment in the middle of an action scene? [Side note: those headstones = teh cheeze.]
- Sean Maher's performance, in the first third of the movie, seemed really off. He didn't *sound* (literally and figuratively) to me like Simon would sound after eight months on Serenity. He was back to being prissy and whiny, and I don't just mean in the backstory. The acting improved (as did his hair) over the last half, and GOD KNOWS he looked amazing in the ending scene with Kaylee, but: he was a weak point for me, in spots.
- Killing Book? I get it. Somebody has to die and it might as well be the guy not on the ship. (*ahem* orflyingit) Unfortunately for people that *haven't* seen the show, his character was kind of reduced to an Uncle Owen-esque narrative device. I thought, anyway. Plus, I started giggling because I decided that Joss (etc.) just didn't want to have to tell his backstory. It's *alluded* to... so that's cool. I mean, he must have been an Operative, right? But still, he's croaking and dying and all I could think was: "Tell your secrets, shepherd!"
- Jayne playing guitar? wtf, dudes. I mean, I understand that they wanted to give Jayne other dimensions, but I think that was just dumb. One of the best things about Jayne is that he is pretty much one-dimensional: thug.
- Other than Mal, River and the Operative, none of the other characters got much in the way of development. I was disappointed in this. I understand that there are limitations in a two hour movie, but: I'd rather have had some time with Kaylee or Inara (although she did come in useful, albeit in a very Sue-ish way) ...or, you know, WASH than those The Krays-esque twins in the bar. And, I thought Mr. Universe was... lame, actually. Sorry. I have to say it, but I thought he was lame. In order to feel better about it, we decided that Warren made Mr. Universe and the Wifebot, way back during Earth That Was (and pre-"Villans"). Because only Warren could have come up with that kind of Teh Cheeze.
So, those are the meanest things I have to say about the movie. Flame away, whedonites, because the bottom line is this: I loved it, I'm so proud of them for pulling it off, it was very exciting, very lovely, and I can't WAIT to see it again in September. And bring a million of my closest friends and family. (Slight exaggeration.)
Ona Dime | May 06, 22:38 CET
shoshanna | May 06, 22:46 CET
That being said, judging by the reactions I've scanned up above, I still would not change a single goddamned thing about it.
Towards the end of the film, when the rest of the surviving crew have that last stand underground, I really had a forboding sense of, "Oh sh*t, they're all going to die!" Joss wanted to keep the movie unpredictable and he did that in spades.
After the film was over, we had those screening forms to fill out. There were several fans sitting immediately to my right who were absolutely bawling, and who wrote that they wanted to keep Wash alive. In response, I made sure to write on my form that he should stay dead.
I can't believe there are Browncoats out there who want the film to be boycotted as a result. It's Joss' vision, not yours.
BTW, Nathan mentioned to me back in January, when he did Tom Lenk's play, that he played the Reaver who attacks the colonist seen in the holo-recording. Nice bit of trivia for you.
Edit: Also wanted to add that River's fight scene in the bar is absolutely stunning in terms of choreography and editing. It was very reminiscent of the Buffy/Faith fight scene in "Graduation" in terms of telling a story. Compare it to the absolute incoherence of the mansion raid in the first Tomb Raider film and you'll see what I mean.
[ edited by Oddjob on 2005-05-06 21:57 ]
Oddjob | May 06, 23:54 CET
teradia | May 07, 00:02 CET
I thought the enitre beginning of the piece was amazing. For viewers or non-viewers alike the action is fast, interesting and it pulls you in. The dialogue was spot-on the enitre time, and when they arrive in the bar I couldn't help thinking that i was seeing the new Mos Eisley. That being said, the tone of the movie seemed a little off in parts, and rewatching the dvds afterwards confirmed that. I feel like the stakes get raised too early in the movie for anyone to really get a feel for what business as usual should feel like. Particularly Mal is extremely intense from the get-go. While I love the intensity, I feel like without something to compare it to, it doesn't quite feel like firefly, and also it will make it difficult to return to the firefly tone form the series in any of the next movies, assuming they get made. The Wild-west aspects- the twangy guitars and horses, and deserts etc. also end up getting a little played down for the movie which made me kind of sad.
When the movie started, I actually found myself thinking, you know, this movie isn't really in that different of a position from star wars when it first opened; I could really see everyone falling in love with this the way I have. That strong optimistic feeling kept up until about the time where river is handcuffed in the ship after the barfight. I just felt the movie was pulling too strong on the River is dangerous line. No one wants to see a movie about river vs. the firefly crew, so you shouldn't pretend it is. I felt that whole scene was pulling us backwards, away from the climax of the movie we should be rushing to. Also, while I loved the concept of miranda, i felt that the pacing and tone were all wrong in those scenes. Things that needed to happen quicker happened too slow, and things that needed to happen slow happened to fast, and things that needed to happen didn't. Since Miranda is so important to the movie, I really felt I needed those scenes to really pull me in, but they didn't, they just didn't feel as weighty as intense as I think they needed to be for it to work, and I'm afraid how an audience who's never scene the TV show will take them. However once Miranda (and thus the set-up) is complete, the movie skyrockets off to an amazing conclusion.
ABout the crew. I know that the firefly movie is short, and there isn't enough screentime to give to all 1 million characters. But I feel like, the reaosn why firefly worked so well was because of the characters. It wasn't the intricacy of the plots or the action, it was the ultra-defined characters and their realistic reactions and relationships to the world and characters around them that game the show its soul. So when certain characters get pushed to the background for the sake of not cluttering up the movie, I feel it really lost something. Particulary Kaylee didn't really get a chance to shine and show who she really was. It wouldn't take that many extra scenes/lines to really make the movie audience fall in love with Kaylee's character the way fans of the TV show have. And more importantly the entire love relationship between Kaylee and Simon means nothing in the movie if it hasn't had time to be properly developed before. I never thought I'd say this, but in the movie, SIMON is the character we care about over her. Inara's character also, while good in the scenes she was in, doesn't work. Too many punches were pulled and she's not given enough time to be herself. In fact, Mal never calls her a whore once. If Inara's whoring is too innappropriate to be put in the movie, she shouldn't be there. It would give more desperately needed time to the other characters, and no one wants to see a neutered Inara. I just feel like, Joss needed to have just a little bit more faith in the TV show, the things that made them work, and let those smae magical elements inspire the movie. BIG HUGE SPOILERS UP AHEAD On the subject of deaths (SPOILER), I was totally accepted the fact that Book had to Ben Kenobi it in the movie, and I felt it worked. Wash on the other hand ... I feel like his character in the movie wasn't QUITE given enough time to make the audience really care when he died, and his death only served to make the audience afraid that anyone could die. Which ...I dunno if it felt justified. I would have also liked a little more shit at his funeral maybe ...
The fights are amazing and the special effects never left me wanting more. However thinking about the movie afterwars, i almost felt like some of the hand-to-hand combat scenes were maybe a little too long, bad-ass as they were, because a movie this huge really needs time to spread its wings. SOme of the Mr. Universe scenes also come off as dead air that could be used in further explication. All in all, I loved the movie, but I feel like it needed to be longer and be stripped of some scenes if it wants to be able to really be comercially successful. While it isn't the movie it needs to be quite yet, I feel like with a little more editing, this could be THE MOVIE of 2005. I believe.
sTr4y | May 07, 00:07 CET
I think the reason many people are upset (and I haven't seen this posted - surprisingly) is that we wanted these folks back so badly, that we are upset that some of them were taken from us so quickly. If they had all made it through this movie, and we had lost one in a sequel, perhaps people would feel less "cheated".
I for one, appreciate the direct, mature and non-sentimental approach to Wash's death. Unexpected, unfair, and hurtful to the living. Yep - real. Perhaps the fault is ours in that we have become so conditioned to our action movies being the total opposite of real. This is not an action movie - it is a drama with action. That's the difference.
From a "real-life" perspective. It is possible that had the series continued, one of these characters, or one of the others would have been killed. You know that Joss would've done it, and we would've felt just as badly.
Those who have written that Alan & Ron may not have necessarily wanted to continue may be right. We'd like to think that the actors are all in stasis, but actors thrive on challenge and exploring different personalities. They keep moving forward - so should we.
I for one will recommend this movie to others. It won't "mean" as much to the uninitiated, but it is damn fine storytelling and doesn't take the Hollywood way out. I like that.
BTW - I agree the headstones were WAAYYYYY CHEESY!!
Znachki | May 07, 00:11 CET
ZachsMind | May 07, 00:20 CET
that said, though i am seriously bummed that wash is gone, and book, but wash was more of a personal favorite, i suppose i'm thankful that they got out with so few killed. for a second there after wash, i sort of knew that all bets were off, and that this was a series finale of angel moment. i was expecting to lose everybody! except for inara, everybody was injured, and inara isn't going to be able to fend off a large group of reavers by herself.
after thinking about it later, i think they need to add something that explains better who the crew is, they explain the war in the beginning, sort of, but not that zoe and mal were in it, or what inara does for a living. that would have helped. newbies to the film will miss a lot otherwise. zoe's reaction to wash's death is a soldiers reaction, not a wife's, and without the backstory, it's going to seem like a really weird reaction.
i like jayne with the guitar. i'm sure it has a ladies name. and i thought simon was a lot less whiny and prissy in the film. come on, he punched mal!
kittyholmes | May 07, 00:23 CET
teel77 | May 07, 00:28 CET
I think Znachki hit the nail on the head.
lycoming | May 07, 00:53 CET
That's the point.
The kind of war-like situation they were in, death can come in any second. Book's death was a movie death. There was a last talk, in someone's arms. Last words, a clear moment. It was 'movie'. Wash' death came out of nowhere exactly how death can come in those situations! Out of nowhere. For no reason. And Joss made us feel it, the way the characters felt it. Realism. Surprise. Against the grain. Anti-formula. Victories must be earned. Prices are paid. Main characters die.
Does this sound familiar to anyone who's familiar with Joss work by any chance?
It's what he does! It's one of the reasons his work stands out. You can be nervous watching his stories because certain people that would never die in other movies/shows, die in his! Because he never wants us to take things for granted and he wants us to feel things. To feel loss. To feel the price of victory.
So Wash was your favorite. As I said before, every character is someone's favorite. Joss is not going to *not* kill off a character because he's *your* favorite. I was surprised, and shocked, and sad, and spilled some tears. And it made me feel the movie all the more.
I've seen on the browncoat boards some people are getting really, really nasty. Calling Joss names. 'He can kick my butt'. 'He turned on us'. 'He hates the fans'. The more fanatical fandom run amok?? What the hell is this??
I'm seriously wondering if these 'fans' ever got anything Joss did. I'm always sad when a beloved character dies. And that's precisely the reason Joss' stories get to me more! Wash's death was brutal and sudden and shocking and exactly the type of death that people die in real life in war. And as sad as I am at the thought he won't be back in any possible sequels, it elevated this movie for me.
In that heart-breaking way Joss always does those things.
I think Znachki hit the nail on the head.
He probably did. But people will always feel 'cheated' when their favorite character dies. No matter when it is. And Joss knew full well there may never be a sequel to begin with.
I think if you can't handle the death of main characters, Joss' work is just not for you.
EdDantes | May 07, 01:00 CET
The uninitiated may not be mourning his death with the same fervency as fans, but they will understand that the stakes have been raised. They won't se it as gratuitous b/c they wouldn't have the same emotional investment -- they probably like him, and think he's funny, but his death would mean nothing more than that a likable, wise-cracking, cool character has been offed, and no one is safe -- a suicide mission is just that: suicide. You take on some big enemies, reavers and Alliance, and expect to make it out alive: not likely. At that point, as a huge fan of the series and strongly invested in the universe, I really thought they were all goners. Maybe not Mal and River, but the rest of them... I got teary, OK? I was emotionally invested. There was a Q&A session with Alan and Gina after the SF screening and while I laughed and listened to them, all I wanted to do was go somewhere dark and quiet and take several moments to digest all the emotional trauma and stuff. I was suffused -- not just with tears, but emotions, and a day later, my mind is still picking over the movie. I can't let it go. I want to see it again RIGHT NOW to really cement all the details.
The funny thing is that I think the storytelling, plot and dialogue were the strongest facets of the film -- that and the acting. The direction end of it I was less happy with: the action could have been filmed more gracefully, the lighting a little more bright (some of the movie looked grimy) and I don't know if Joss has established his film rhythm yet. Defining a director's rhythm is hard, but some of the cuts were too abrupt and some of the shots too self-conscious and stagey so that I was conscious of the camera deliberately doing an arty shot. To compare to Tarantino: his stories are dodgy and his message non-existent (though he has a way with dialogue), but his visual style is playful and graceful. Joss has a ton of intellectual rigor and ingenuity but needs to develop his visual style to match his verbal facility. Hopefully, he will have years to refine his talent.
I loved the movie to bits, will watch it many more times in the theater (not just a brag, there's really a lot to absorb!) and the film has fucking pace, BUT! Not a perfect film, it's a great film, and that is enough for me to start praying for a sequel.
dottikin | May 07, 01:05 CET
And, I completely understand that some characters had to take a backseat to a few principal ones – there's simply no way to do a two-hour movie that works with nine leads, and I think Mal and River were pretty natural choices. But, given all that, I do wonder what the impact of Wash's and Book's deaths will be for non-fans.
Maybe it's pointless speculation. I've found it surprisingly tough to put myself in the shoes of someone who's never seen the show. But given how little there was about either Wash or Book in the movie, my guess is that their deaths will have very little emotional impact for anyone unfamiliar with Firefly - that they'd be more of an "oh, that's too bad" kind of moment. Since there wasn't much showing Zoe's and Wash's relationship, even the impact on her would seem minimal. That seems a shame, but it's not like I have any suggestions for how it could have been done differently. With so much to accomplish in such a short time frame, not to mention the need to make everything grander, more epic, more tightly plotted for the big screen, there's only so much time that can be given to the sort of quiet developments that are the hallmark of good episodic television. And in general, I think Joss did a masterful job juggling all those conflicting needs.
What was your sense of how this movie might play to a mainstream audience?
acp | May 07, 01:12 CET
Exacty my point.
dottikin
Interesting. That wasn't my reaction at all. I thought the way he followed certain 'strings' of moments in his cuts was actually very reminiscent of Tarantino's. Both in style and skill. (Be interesting to see what Joss himself would say to our comments and comparison, hehe)
I also found that the fluidity of the action scenes was far better than I expected, especially near the end.
I do understand what you mean with certain shots, and the deliberateness of their 'art' but they were so beautiful they still worked for me.
As for the darkness and the light, like I wrote in my own review, I seriously wonder how much of this still has to go through some post-production touches, because some scenes felt like 'deleted scenes on the DVD' in the graininess. Like I said, maybe a deliberate choice, maybe just not really finished yet.
dottikin
I second that! And it's definitely a good movie to rewatch. There's a lot of details you probably don't notice enough first time around. It's very 'rich'. He put a lot in there.
acp
Maybe it's pointless speculation. I've found it surprisingly tough to put myself in the shoes of someone who's never seen the show.
I know what you mean acp. I think those deaths will obviously hit non-fans far less hard. Book's death will actually be what they're used to. An 'old friend' who dies to show the danger, to add tragedy and resonance if not being 'cry worthy' to new viewers.
Wash' death will as has been pointed out, up the stakes. Show that characters can die. And since no one is a 'big star' that the audience KNOWS won't die, anyone can die. Which makes things far more tense. I don't think those deaths are intended to be as sad to non-fans as they are to us.
acp
Man that's so hard to call. I'm rarely all that mainstream in my tastes already and here I was a fan of the characters before I went in the theater.
I think it's gonna be tough...as Joss said, no huge budget, no big name stars. It's a story that demands attention and not as brain-dead as most movies lately, so maybe feel it's too much work....
On the other hand, people are tired of the cliched crap (Riddick having a 'name' star and a huge budget and a previous successful movie but, being crap, still did poor business) and are ready for new 'out-of-the-box' type of movie. Sin City and Kill Bill doing good business and fitting that bill in their own different ways are good signs I think.
And I think Joss' humor is a big, bug plus. I think that should really work for everyone. It's so funny so often and the type of funny everyone gets. I truly believe the story and the characters would have sucked me in as a non-fan too. And if there's really no competition when it comes out I think it should stand a chance to do well. I'm hoping for something along the lines of Sin City. 25-30 mill in opening weekend, getting the budget back after a week or 2-3, everything else is extra, plus then the DVD sales.....that would be great and I think is within the realm of realism.
Here's hoping...
EdDantes | May 07, 01:36 CET
Book. She didn't care at all about Book. It was just a plot advancement, that put Mal in the right direction. But she liked the scene and was curious about Book from the exchange the two had earlier in the film. She understood Book's significance in the film, and how his comments focused the viewer on the question of belief.
Wash. I specifically asked her if Wash's death resonated with her. She said on a deeply emotional level, it did not. She said it shocked her, because of the timing, the speed of it, and the fact she was caught up in the laughter to so the stark reality of what happened shocked her. So while she wasn't in tears over Wash, she was terrified from that point forward that others would die too.
So, to me, it served its purpose, introducing those unfamiliar with Joss to that unnerving, genuine worry for the characters when they are in some peril. Nothing's safe and she got that.
I was on the Browncoats board too EdDantes, and I'm floored by some of the negative. (By the way - I think you meant Joss can KISS my ass. Freudian slip much?) :) "Joss is dead to me." Wow. I get genuine anger, frustration, grief, etc. To a large extent. But that? Were these people watching Charmed, mistaking it for Buffy? (Okay, that's even hard to write.)
The moment was true Joss. I'm still rattled by it. And I like that I'm rattled.
What I sincerely hope is that 'versal pays absolutely no attention whatsoever to any of this Save Wash stuff. And I don't say that to be disrespectful to those who would like that to happen - I just think anything that has this much reaction/controversy means that it did affect people, and will continue to do so.
Angela | May 07, 02:40 CET
zeitgeist | May 07, 04:17 CET
Thanks Angela it's interesting to know what a non-fan thinks and I can completely understand how she saw things. It makes sense. As I thought neither death would really be that tragic to 'newcomers' but they will feel the point Joss makes there.
Uh yes. Joss did kick my ass with this movie, but that guy said 'kiss'. Ahem. Slight error there, hehe.
Yeah I can see how it would be. Made me laugh our loud though;-) I do hope that if Joss is surfing the web, that he's reading more of our stuff than of the angry Browncoats....
EdDantes | May 07, 05:00 CET
When Mal pushes that guy off the hover car and then shoots him instead of letting the reavers have him.
When Zoe confronts Mal about pushing that guy off the hover car.
The chase on the way back from the job to Serenity.
When Mal shoots the Operative after he says he’s unarmed.
When Mal is getting his ass kicked while fighting the Operative but he keeps getting up and continuing the fight.
River’s fight scene in the bar.
Wash’s death (I’m not trolling here. I thought it was well done -- for all the reasons people have said earlier).
I also thought it was cool that the first reaver ship Serenity fired on was the one that stayed with them throughout that whole battle and eventually attacked Serenity. (At least I *think* it was the same ship.)
I’m *sooo* glad Joss didn’t go with a techno-heavy soundtrack. On the music front it’s traumatic enough not to hear that acoustic guitar riff right before Serenity does a hard burn.
On the cheesy side:
I agree with other people about those tombstones – they were bad (they should be easy to fix, too). Also, does Mr. Universe deserve to be buried with Wash and Book? He wasn’t crew.
I still don’t like Mal’s “I aim to misbehave” line. And I’m not overly fond of the “can’t stop the signal” catchphrase either.
fr0g | May 07, 05:17 CET
Oddjob | May 07, 06:04 CET
Ahh, you're forgetting that this might be the first big Joss death for some of them. I mean, having been through BtVS and AtS with the man, I've learnt to watch and love him for his bloodthirsty ways, but some of those people are relative Joss-newbies who came in with Firefly. I wasn't on the 'net that far back, but I can only imagine what the reaction was when Jenny was killed and Angel sent to Hell. I figure Joss has been excoriated worse for killing a character (*cough*Tara).
So did anyone pick up on the long take towards the beginning of the film?
I did! The one-er, the long take following Mal through the ship as they prep for the first mission. Very cool. I recall being impressed with how long the shot was, and how he kept the energy up. Wonder how long it took to shoot.
See, this is why I need to see the movie again. I was sitting in the second row, real close to the screen, so that I literally could not follow the action from both ends of the screen. I think I missed a lot of visual detail in the space flights and River hand-to-hand moments. Why can't I see this again?!? Right now! Though I don't think I'll go to another preview screening: let other fans go, who haven't seen it at all, and save my money for pumping up the take at the box office.
dottikin | May 07, 07:10 CET
Willowy | May 07, 07:19 CET
Crazy. I know. But, for many, Firefly was their first glimpse into the brilliant mind of Joss Whedon.
They did not see the deaths coming, though they should have.
TamaraC | May 07, 07:26 CET
For those that only watched Firefly, and not B or A, then this was their first experience losing one of the loved, loveable characters. I wasn't on the net either during BtVS S2 or around the time of Seeing Red, so I can't speak to what the comments were. I think it's safe to assume they were very, very emotional. Filled with strongly worded statements. But this...I don't know if it got to this level. Frankly, fandom should never get to this level.
Joss gets this movie greenlit, against all odds and the castmembers gather around him again gleefully. They are all obviously so proud of the result, and they gather with fans to not just market the film, but watch it with the fans as well. And they get, "Joss is dead to me." They get fans refusing to now recommend the film to non-fans. Alan could very easily learn that while his character was obviously loved - which is a good thing - his character's death has created a sudden hatred and rage. That just sucks. It sucks really hard.
Angela | May 07, 07:57 CET
While I do not normally think of myself as such a delicate flower, something about the mood of the film obviously struck an unexpected, bummer chord for me. I'm fully aware that this might be my own personal sensitivities (which are apparently many and legion) at work, rather than actual flaws in the film.
In summation, SBF (Sad Browncoat Female) seeks the day when she's going to feel good enough about this movie to enthusiastically spread the word.
On the upside, Mr. Universe's wedding ceremony shows that there are, in fact, Jews in Space.
shoshanna | May 07, 10:28 CET
Also, did anyone else pick up on Zoe's line, during the heist, about what happens to (wanna-be) heroes? To me, that was great foreshadowing, and it also contributed to that real sense of forboding I had during that "last stand" towards the end of the film that Mal's actions were indeed going to get everyone killed.
Oddjob | May 07, 10:31 CET
so about the comments about the angry fans just being firefly fans, i hope everybody means the nasty browncoat board posters, because the other 3 people i saw it with are also pretty enormous fans of buffy and angel as well, and one even saw "welcome to the hellmouth" the first time it aired, so i think that should count for something. i think i'm the odd one out in the group, in that the death was sad, but i'm not angry about it today. as stated earlier, i felt we got off easy, and for a moment there, i thought everybody was going to die, like (debatable) in the angel finale. but yeah, the whole "joss is dead to me" is pretty poopy.
kittyholmes | May 07, 11:14 CET
Somewhat related: I was watching a couple of Firefly episodes tonight, and I was really struck by one scene in Shindig, where Wash and Zoe are in bed and Wash is joking about how he’ll act at Zoe’s funeral if she gets killed. Watching that scene after having seen the movie kind of gives it new meaning.
fr0g | May 07, 11:38 CET
Angela | May 07, 12:06 CET
fr0g | May 07, 12:29 CET
Even though, from the perspective of a committed Firefly fan, I probably didn't 'get' the characters the way you do, since I don't know what you know, it doesn't matter. Joss made me *feel* like I really 'got' the characters, and it was a totally exhilarating experience.
It was interesting reading the comments about Wash's death. Of course, I wouldn't have felt his death as deeply as the long-time fans, but let me tell you, from a storytelling perspective, it was shocking, in a taking my breath from me kind of way, and it *was* painful, because the moment right before he died was my 'falling in love with Wash' moment. It was like Joss took that moment of me investing in the character, and intensified it to laser beam level in a split second. Call me a masochist, but I love a guy who can pierce my heart like that, when I didn't see it coming.
Merrin | May 07, 13:03 CET
I was already around the net when Doyle's death occured. People was at first outraged by how, Joss dared to replace him with Wesley.
I was sure around the net when Tara was killed. That was a huge backlash, as I remember. People outraged by how sudden, and how silly the way that she died. Just a few days ago, my friends were arguiing about how she died, all over again. It was like reliving 2002 again. Can't really compare with Wash' death, since I haven't watched "Serenity" yet, but according to some reports up there, it was sudden. I doubt it was as sudden as Tara's. It was hard to react because it also felt pointless to some people, and it was also the ultimate plot device to Willow's fall to the dark side. Yeah, If you think that Joss being called bad names nowadays being bad, you should've seen back then, it was way worse (there was the women hater speech, the gay hater speech, etc). What we witnessed later with Anya, Cordy and Fred, it was just like a glimpse of what happened before with Tara, only lite version.
Yeah, I do agree with you guys, that's those deaths were probably the first Whedon death for a lot of the Firefly/Serenity fans, since they probably never suffered through 12 seasons of Buffyverse, to be prepared to any of it. Not that it makes us accept deaths easier, it just makes it less harsh for us, and we tend to be a lot more rational facing "it".
Since reading everything in this thread, I got really thoughtful about the movie for a whole day, yesterday.
- Book's death doesn't really affect a lot the crew's dinamics, he was really on and off the ship. Mostly they lost a good friend. But his death doesn't mean we won't see Ron Glass again in a Serenity Movie, if there comes a sequel. It doens't me we'll never lear about Book's past. Book's past actions could very well reverberate to the "present" and affect the living ones. Maybe his past could actually be the starting point for the sequel, and then we'll finally know who he really was. Book would return in Flashbacks, maybe he left something important in the ship, or something would happen just because he was there for a long time.
- Wash's death is what affects the groups dinamics the most. I'm not talking about it's relevance in the movie for fans or non fans, but how it affects the story from now on. They lost their ultimate pilot, Zoe lost her husband, the rest of the crew lost a good friend and comic relief at the tense times. (I just realized that most of my favorite Firefly's clever-perky lines came out from Wash). I'm curious about how the crew functions from now on. How everyone is mourning this loss, especially Zoe. But life does go on, and they have to learn to go on without him. Do they hire a new pilot, or someone steps on the role.
Well that's it, guess I've given it some thought. Now, just let me whine: Why can't November 11th come soon enough? Why can't I live in the North Hemisphere where it open earlier? Why?
-edit for typos, sorry for them folks, was in a hurry when I posted. Hope I got all them right this time. -
[ edited by Numfar PTB on 2005-05-07 13:56 ]
Numfar PTB | May 07, 13:38 CET
Oh my god, I know. I can see how that would work for people unfamiliar with Firefly: I totally forgot that Wash was kicking ASS right before he died. God, I love Joss. And I have to say, even with the long line of Whedon-deaths in my experience (and I went through them all -- I watched the original broadcast of "Welcome to the Hellmouth" and I distinctly recall Angel being sent to hell, etc.), Wash's death is still hitting me pretty hard. He's just so likable! And cool! He's like a really nice version of the Everyman, and I will miss him passi