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June 17 2005

Comment from Joss about the Angel and Spike comic books. "You do want to do everything yourself but every now and then somebody shows you something you haven't thought of, and it's really charming".

So we can consider these comics canon, right? :D
The general thought is neither the books(which Joss said he has no knowledge of what happens in them) or any comics are canon.

My general thought would be they are not, as not everyone will read a comic book, and therefor you will lose alot of your auidence. If he decides to do a movie later up the road, you don't want to refer people to an old comic book, but just back to the show. Watching it carefully can mean he like Fox, has set limits to what the characters can do, but is not necessarily a canon concept either.But also he can just disreguard anything in the comics if it does not suit his movie ideas.

Just my thoughs though.

[ edited by FalenAnjl on 2005-06-17 22:11 ]
I had thought that the Spike comic was set pre-NFA. This darkworlds blurb suggests the opposite. Does anyone know for abolute sure?
I think the Spike one-shot is set present day Buffy season 7.
I hadn't read anything previously about these comics, phlebotinin, but I was nevertheless wondering the same thing about both of them. From the description, those plots could take place just about any time. I kind of wondered whether the writers might be jumping to conclusions, was about to say as much, and then saw you had similar thoughts. But of course I could be the one doing the jumping here.

Seconded: Anyone know??
Well, we know definitely - unless I've had a brain injury recently I don't know about! - that the Angel "The Curse" series takes place post-NFA. But the Spike one, well, it would seem from Simon's post that it's pre-NFA.
We know the Angel one is deffiantly after NFA. A few months or so maybe? They say in that we will find out who is alive or not through flashbacks, that the comics are not tied together, and they were going to add the others into the comics in the second mini.

Taking that into account, I had assumed and with other things said by PD that this was set sometime in 6th season Buffy. I know comics are not canon, but there was hardly time for spike, newly souled to slip of and fight another demon on his own in his condition.

[ edited by FalenAnjl on 2005-06-17 22:38 ]
Maybe some of the lit by Buffy/Angel writers should be considered semi-canon.
No, because it is just their interpertations. Joss is the only one who is canon. The comics that were written by the Buffy writers earlier were not considered canon, just what they thought could have happened, but they never ran it by Joss. This comic is being writen by a buffy book writer ,but not a show writer. Unless it is on screen or authorized by Joss not just Fox,it is just another good piece of fanfic.

Unlike the Star wars merchandise, which Lucas hand picks and has his hand in every comic and book, these stories are pitched by writers and then accepted by Fox only.

And since the show is over and the field of people writing the comics and books is alot larger, everyone can be considered a Jossverse writer.
I'm working on a Buffy project, which after a year may even be finished within the next few months, and it relies heavily on what's Buffy canon - so FalenAnji, by your theory on canon, do you still count the other Buffy TV writers' tales in Tales of the Slayers and Vampires as not being canon, while Joss' tales in the same publications are canon? Or because Joss is taking part in them do you count all the tales in those collections as canon?
FalenAnjil, you might try adopting a little less authoritative tone in your posts (unless you are actually JW under a nom de plume). Since it is just your opinion that
Joss is the only one who is canon. The comics that were written by the Buffy writers earlier were not considered canon, just what they thought could have happened, but they never ran it by Joss. This comic is being writen by a buffy book writer ,but not a show writer. Unless it is on screen or authorized by Joss not just Fox,it is just another good piece of fanfic.

please be aware that other fans have a different take on what constitutes "canon" (and on every other subject). Just prefacing your comments with "I think," or "in my opinion" every now and again would serve to soften them a little, and not make it sound like your words are being handed down from Mt. Olympus. Thanks.
I'm confused. My understanding is that canon refers to things that took place onscreen during the TV series run. Is this not the case?
Ah, was just joking about anything being semi-canon.

After noting more debate, I checked Merriam-Webster Online. There are seven definitions for canon, from Scripture to accepted as a general rule. Take your pick, it seems.
"While Whedon isn't writing June 29's ANGEL: THE CURSE or August's SPIKE: OLD TIMES, he is closely supervising them." Assuming this is true, I'd say we can take the comic books as canon. If Joss is aware, approves & is supervising, that sounds like canon to me.
I was taking the future comics to be considered canon (the new Angel series, the Spike oneshot, and the rumored Buffy return and Faith comic) since it has seemed that Joss has been quite closely involved.
To my understanding, canon has always been only what is on tv, unless it has the direct hand of the creator and owner.

Lucas both owns and created Star Wars, therefor he has to answer to no one.But Fox owns Buffy,even though Joss created and breathed life into her. So there is always a person to run something through.

Joss, himself has said he has no clue what happens in the Buffy books , nor any connection to them. The Buffy tales I would assume would fall under that as well. Fox, I believe controls all of that. Has Joss ever wrote any of the Tales books, himself?

Peter David, said he ran the Spike story by Joss's people, but never actually talked to Joss. I have no idea if he had to run it by Fox or just stick to their guidelines that they set out. Merriote said he knew the guidelines so he was familiar with what he was and was not allowed to write. He also said he ran this story across Joss himself when trying to decide where they wanted to start the comic. He said he pitched two ideas and Joss wanted to start with the one that was not directly involved with NFA. The story is Merriote's(with maybe Joss imput?). He also said he had to send the 2nd mini's storyline to get it okayed by Fox, and is still waiting that okay.

Not everyone who loves this universe are comic people. The comics before were not widely embraced.So the auidence for them I think would be smaller then one they would get if on screen. No to mention, since Buffy and all her characters are not allowed to be used,fans who are not intrested in Spike or Angel by themselves, will be lost, if it is canon, and any future projects try and stem from them. Darkhorse has been very quiet with it's rights, that run out next year. There is a rumored Buffy comic?

For example, a few years back the Buffy writer's Espensen and Petrie wrote a comic that had four diffent versions of what happened when Buffy and Angel meet in season 6. It was never considered canon to the show.

[ edited by FalenAnjl on 2005-06-18 00:59 ]
For example, a few years back the Buffy writer's Espensen and Petrie wrote a comic that had four diffent versions of what happened when Buffy and Angel meet in season 6. It was never considered canon to the show.

Can an alternate take on a pre-existingh story be even considered within the realm of canon/non-canon? Logically it would seem to stand outside of the actual timeline of the particular universe. Is the alternate universe Anya created canon on non-canon? I could easily argue that it isn't because in a linear timeline of the shows Universe that particular dimension ceased to exist when the pendant was smashed and the timeline reverted so that it in fact never existed. On the other hand I could argue that it does exist and cite Vampire Willow's bleed over into the primary linear timeline as an example.

Canon/non-canon arguemnts are a dead end, especially since Joss' creative influence in the Universe has croassed mediums. I mean is Fray canon? It would have been easy to argue No until elements of the Fray timeline becgan making appearances in Buffy's timeline. Now what?


My belief is that the connections to the shows that exist in the literature (including comics), games, etc... are just too piecemeal and in some cases, far too radical to be canon. Entertaining? Unquestionably. But it's really streamlined if you just take the shows as canon. Until He declares it different, that's what I'm sticking with.

*edited because 'are' isn't the same as 'is'.

[ edited by Willowy on 2005-06-18 02:10 ]
Ultimately, I think that canon is what you make it. If you want to stick to just what was shown on television (my personal choice), then obviously can do that. If you want to count every single comic book or novel as canon, then as long as your brain can make sense of it all, you can do that too. One of the beauties of the Buffyverse is its flexibility.
Hey Jet Wolf, looks like our beliefs here are similar. I do differ with you on the flexibility point, though. Joss didn't mean his work to be interpreted a bazillion different ways. Although it's true that each individual will take what they will from it, the story is solid. The nuances are endless, but the tale is told (and hopefully will be added to by Joss someday soon), and definitive.
If Joss has approved the story ideas in these comics, then they're canon to me. How else am I gonna find out what's happened after Not Fade Away? Hold out for a teevee movie? Yeesh. That'll be a cold day on the Hellmouth.

And didn't I read something where the author ran story ideas X, Y & Z by Joss, and Joss was like, "Okay, you can do X and Y, but Z is something I might wanna do in the future, so don't go there." Or am I making that up? 'Cause that sounds like Joss's seal of approval to me.
Yay for semi-agreement, Willowy. ;)

I don't mean flexible in terms of, "Buffy didn't really die at the end of 'The Gift'" or anything along those lines. Some stuff isn't open to interpretation, I agree. But a lot of what Joss puts in – what I would call "nuances", but that may differ from your menaing – is largely vague. I find that if you look at any given Buffy episode, there are four or five different things you can take away from it, depending on how you want to interpret what's given. It's how I think you can have so many different debates, character studies, or portrayls in fanfic. My version of Spike, to grab the first character that comes to mind, is probably drastically different from one that a diehard Spike fan holds, but I think there's sufficient evidence (and vagueness) to support both of our viewpoints. That's more what I meant by flexibility. So we may agree here too, and it's just a case of quibbling over terms.

If Joss has approved the story ideas in these comics, then they're canon to me. How else am I gonna find out what's happened after Not Fade Away?

Which is totally cool. In my personal opinion however, even if Joss himself says that he considers X, Y, & X to come next, it's not canon to me until I see it. This is primarily because I don't think that even Joss would hold himself to what he says versus what he would do if given the opportunity. Creatively speaking, I don't think he'd hedge himself into anything until he absolutely had to, i.e., it was in the can and ready to air. Until the point of no return, it's all up for grabs.
Jet Wolf, I see your 'nuances' and 'flexibility' clarifiers and agree. Get 'cha!
When fandom got to the point where every writer including Joss was saying one thing and the fans were saying something else then I think what "canon" is and isn't was thrown out of the window.
When did that happen, eddy?
I read too many comics allready so I am happy for these comics. I might be wrong but it can only be good for the posibility of new Whedonverse tv-projects. A.) Being that it is a lisence property Fox makes some money and B.) It keeps these characters out there. Sure comics is not as visable as some other forms of entertainment BUT just the fact that a publication like TV-Guide (who has an enormous circulation) brings there comicbooks up can only be good.
The way Joss' quote is worded lends to the argument that these issues are canon. But I'd feel more comfortable considering them canon if Joss would actually say the stories in these particular issues are canon. Has Joss ever said that any Buffyverse comic is canon? I always assumed that if Joss himself wrote it, it's canon.
Anything Joss wrote as far as the comics go is canon and I don't see why anyone would consider it not. Everything in the Tales of the Slayer collection may as well be canon as well, since none of it contradicted anything already established on our TV screens and they were all writers from the show (plus one actor) and accompanied by Joss in that book. Fray is definitely canon, the scythe even originated there. It doesn't matter if a lot of viewers never read those comics and never will--it doesn't take away from one's enjoyment of the TV series in the least. They're not missing any crucial info. I guess those who'd read Fray and experienced the end of Season 7 got more of a kick out of the introduction of the scythe, but other than that, I can't think of any major connection to the comics that the TV shows acknowledged.

Haven't picked up Tales of the Vampire yet.

Everything else I figure is up for grabs. I like to think at least most of Jane Espenson's post-Season-3/prelude-to-Season-4 Haunted mini-series is canon. Her Reunion one-shot is kinda iffy as far as cannon goes (it could fit, sure...it just feels way too self-indulgent to me to want to consider it canon. Same with the Jonathan one-shot, though I thought it was pretty well-done), but it was entertaining and pretty funny in some part. Even made a nice, if too-soon-severe, implication of Willow's impending abuse of magic, and her guilt about resurrected-Buffy's anguish.
Kris, must read Tales of the Vampires!!! Fray - totally canon. Tales (slayers and vampires) probably canon. This is of course IMO. I'll decide if the new comics are canon AFTER I read them. If they suck...not canon, but if they are SHINEY...possible canon material. Am I wishy washy or what?
" When did that happen, eddy?"

When people started denying (literally) what they were seeing on the screen. Alot of what is canon IMO is up to viewer interpretation. Its not all set in stone like say Star Trek. Yeah there are alot of plot lines that are very clear but some things (cordy and angel?) aren't as translucent.

Harmalicious, I feel the same way to a extent. If its not good then I really won't consider it part of the verse.

[ edited by eddy on 2005-06-18 07:54 ]
um, has anyone seen the Angel comic btw? Since I've scoured the eastern hemisphere's comic bookstores and come up empty handed..
I'll agree with eddy n' harm too, if they be good, they be canon, if they be bad, then I'll just pull a Highlander 2 on em :D
disa the first issue of the Angel comic book is out on the 29th of this month.
tx simon! :)

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