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July 26 2005

(SPOILER) A Dox on all your houses. James Marsters' manager confirms his role on Smallville and replies to critics of the move on JM's Official Site.

Well, as silly as I think it is to actually write James/Steve with your disapproval, Steve's reaction is just unprofessional. Those people are still fans, and it's never cool to say 'screw you' to fans. And no need in drawing attention to the fact that this isn't the most popular career choice James has made. Just on a 'rep' level, it would probably be smarter to *not* focus on the fact that there is negative reaction and just play up the positive stuff.

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2005-07-26 21:39 ]
You know, whether I liked this new role or didn't -- it's not my life, and whether it's a good move or not will be reflected in the performances and the ratings and in the work that comes as a result of the move -- I found Himber's statement offensive, despite his smiley face punctuation. As a PR person, he should pay attention to what he needs to know about the "naysayers," but he should not engage with them, or diss them. It is his job to rise above that and present JM's new role in a very positive light. As it is, he lends some credence to the position of the naysayers, and diminishes the role as a consequence.

At the very least, he owes all JM's fans an apology, IMO. And I'm beginning to think JM might need someone new to run his website.

ETA: Was writing while Rogue Slayer was posting. But glad to see someone else responded the same way.

[ edited by palehorse on 2005-07-26 21:45 ]
"Agent Dox"??? I'm confused now???
This is really confusing. First of all everything I have read states he will be playing Milton Fine/ Brainiac.

I haven't heard anything about an Agent Dox.

Second, I have perused many boards since this news came out and the response is overwhelmingly positive. Even on the Smallville boards most people seem to be thrilled.

Most of James' fans are just happy we are going to see him on our screens again, and are confident he will make this role exciting.
Personally the message made me laugh out loud!

I dread to think how much E mail he gets telling him how to run his business

and so far the reaction on the JM boards I frequent is amused and positive.

He certainly got us all talking

And the Agent Dox thing confused me as well but there are some explainations out there, hopefully someone better versed in Smallville/Superman lore will explain it here too because I'm bound to make a hash of it!
Dox is the alien intelligence that takes over Milton Fine's body. I suspect that is how he'll be referred to, but there will be some passing line about him being a 'brainiac," as is often the way things are done on "Smallville."

I don't find Steve Himber's statement offensive at all. I don't much care for the negative attitude of people about a show (or another human being) before they actually see how everything plays out. This statement, however, does not apply to "reality" shows (except for "30 Days," which was awesome documentary/educational TV rather than crap ).

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2005-07-26 21:55 ]
You know, I found Steve's comments refreshingly honest. JM's role in Smallville is not something I'm excited about. Having said that, I just don't get fans contacting Steve/James by email, giving advice or opinions. It's his career. Being a huge fan, and not enjoying every single career choice an actor makes, shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

I say kudos to Steve for calling it like he sees it.
Dox is a reference to the Dox family of Brainiacs from the planet Colu.

Click here for more info.
He did add a dippy emoticon (I don't like them!), so I think we can give him the benefit of the doubt. Had it been a blatantly nasty message, that would be a different matter.

But I'm still not watching Smallville!
For what it's worth, the vast majority of Smallville fans who are posting about this on message boards are thrilled to have James join the show.
After reading this comment, can I just say I love Steve H?

And to add, Steve Himber is a really cool guy. He comes back off holiday and is confronted by e-mails telling him that he basically sucks at his job. Ask yourself, how would you re-act?

And dont' be under any misaprehension that this is an isolated incident. He receives countless e-mails about this, that and the other. The other mainly telling him how bad he is at his job, how JM should get a "proper" manager, that his decision making skills are poor.

How long would it take you to snap before you replied with what is, let's face it, a really rather tame response.

People who can do. People who can't e-mail people who can and tell them they can't. *rolleyes*

They guy rocks as far as I'm concerned. It is not unprofessional at all to respond to the naysayers. Anyway, it was probably a heck of a lot quicker adding it to this post than it would have been replying to each e-mail.

I've read elsewhere and I agree, people need to get some perspective. We all aren't managers, we don't know how it all works. I'm sure Steve Himber doesn't know how to do a triple bypass and I sincerely doubt he'd heckle the surgeon.

[ edited by lynnie on 2005-07-26 22:07 ]
Oh, I love Steve Himber for posting that message - leave them alone to run their business for goodness sake. Both Steve and James have run their careers without our help for many years (and IMO making a very good job of it)

Can you imagine the state of his inbox when he got back from holiday? It's embarrassing that so many people think they know what's best for a complete stranger.

Personally I'm moved to send a congratulatory note about the Brainiac role, just to balance it out. Well done to Steve and James, and best luck for the future :)

BTW, it isn't unprofessional in my opinion, it's entirely justified.
I don't have a problem with it either. I think Steve is just being his usual blatantly honest self, and I know he gets totally inundated with mail telling him what James should and shouldn't do and exactly how people feel about such choices. I'm sure that it ranges from the dripping praise to downright hatred. I'm sure that the accessibility and the ease of communication we enjoy can surely seem like a bad thing at times. I also sure that since the guy was on vacation while the "story broke" he probably had a completely overloaded mail box just full of both extreme opinions on the matter to weed out when he got back. I know it would be hard for me to separate myself from such emotional messages.

ETA: Vanity and myself were apparently posting at the same time about the state of Steve's inbox! :)

[ edited by Grace on 2005-07-26 22:14 ]
LOL, Roadrunner, how funny! I just wish Himber had actually gone as far as to curse the fandom with "A Dox on all your houses!"
If it's your job to be a PR contact towards fans you should be able to handle the fact that sometimes fans will dislike something and have the stupid notion that they should tell you. Getting dumb mails from dumb, disgruntled fans is part of the gig. Can't handle it, don't do it. If your reaction is to tell fans to screw off you're being unprofessional. Some jobs don't call for being 'blatantly honest'.

He could have said "Well sorry to the people who don't seem to like it but James is very enthusastic and we and most other fans think it's great. Maybe you'll change your mind when you see it!" There. See? Managed to address it without resorting to abuse. Imagine that.

And then there is always the option of not addressing it at all. Another wild and crazy thought. But nah what PR agent wants to do that when you can tell your actor's audience to screw off.
I didn’t comment on this new role one way or the other, but “screw the nay sayers”?! Are we supposed to think every career move is brilliant and anyone with a difference of opinion must not wuv James anymore? I'm sure Mr Himber has more than his share of exasperation dealing with some of James' fans, but who should know better than him how high emotions can run with things concerning his client. Maybe next time should choose his words a little more carefully -- :-) or not.
I thought the message amusing, and it showed Steve's level of frustration with all the negative E-mails he's probably received.

Was it the best move? Probably not, but it was real and heart-felt.

Thanks for the explanation of Dox.
I'm glad most Smallville fans are happy James is joining the show. I have read negative remarks from some of JM's "fans" who are unhappy with the decision. It wouldn't surprise me at all to learn that Steve was inundated with emails from people telling him how to do his job. One of the reasons James isn't as accessible at conventions is due to overzealous fans. I hope that the open communication we currently enjoy via James management isn't also eroded by that same zeal.
Ed Dantes, Steve isn't a PR agent he is a manager. People email him as a manager telling him he isn't doing his job right. The smiley face indicates to me that he wasn't too upset about it.

He can take down his contact details and not deal with it at all, if he wants to. It isn't his job to deal with fans but he does it anyway.

If idiots continue to bombard him with emails, I wouldn't be surprised if he stopped doing it altogether. Our fan contact addresses used to be with the WB. It only changed when AtS stopped filming.

Frankly it's embarrassing, and good on him for saying it won't affect his management decisions.
Ed Dantes, Steve isn't a PR agent he is a manager...It isn't his job to deal with fans but he does it anyway.


By putting out James' public announcements and comments, and reacting to his fans publicly, he is a de facto PR agent, whether he's getting paid for it or not. And he should act with the same tact that would be expected of an actual PR agent. Just because idiots write you doesn't mean you should respond in kind. In my opinion, of course.
I don't think people here are appreciating the level of abuse Steve has to put up with. Some may consider it unprofessional. But why should he have to continually put up with such utter rudeness and blatant bashing.

Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.

To take the higher ground as some are saying here is what he has been doing for the past several years. Guess what? It hasn't worked. So I guess he figured why not try treating them the way they treat me, see how they like it. And guess what? They don't. Sometimes you need a dose of your own medicine to see how awful you are being.

Still love the guy. Probably even more now. I can't believe that people cannot appreciate that this is a human being we are talking about here, not a robot. He has feelings too. Why should he be constantly abused and just take it. I admire his forthright honesty in telling it straight.

Love you Steve.
It's really interesting to hear the different reactions to Steve's comment.

It's not that I can't see where those who didn't like the comment are coming from. All points made against it are perfectly valid. But the first thing that crossed my mind after seeing it (and after chuckling) is that the fans he was referencing in the comment aren't going to be affected by it. Those willing to inundate Steve's inbox with their opinions about James' career out of "devotion" to James aren't going to go away because Steve said "screw off". So, he got to vent a little. Again, although I do understand the points being made by those who found Steve unprofessional, I've not no problem with Steve biting, actually more like nipping, back.
Steve personally replies to many of the e mails he gets
(yes ,guilty ,I emailed him to thank him for the Halloween con) Fans often share those responses to both positive and negative E mails as well as to requests for information and it's frankly astonishing how many of us he finds time to make contact with . That's far more than most managers or PR people do . He's also often with James at cons and gigs and is never less than polite and helpful to the fans . In my opinion he does a great job .

And so far the response to this latest announcement has been overwhelmingly one of amusement with Steve recieving multiple proposals of marriage on many a forum and LJ .


I'm staying on the positive side and seeing it as a joke, not a slur but each to their own opinion. After all if we all thought the same they'd flip us on our backs once a year and shear us
After all if we all thought the same they'd flip us on our backs once a year and shear us

Oh, you mean I'm the only one that happens to?? I knew something wasn't right when Ed slipped that into the vows.... 'To love, honor, and shear yearly...'
I wouldn't want his job, and I certainly think fans overstep the boundaries by presuming they have the right to tell an actor through his manager what to do. And I won't defend anyone's right to verbally abuse anybody.

However, I cannot imagine that giving the fans a dose of their own medicine will stop the negative emails. On the contrary, my guess is that it will encourage even more negative emails, because he's shown that he cannot rise above them. What people who write negative emails want is acknowledgement. So, he just gave them that. Expect more of the same.

He is paid to "take it," just as people in many customer service jobs are. If he cannot gain some distance from the anger of the disrespectful "fans," then, again, get someone else to post to the website, or get someone else to read the negative emails. He's not doing his client any favors.
"I can't believe that people cannot appreciate that this is a human being we are talking about here, not a robot. He has feelings too. Why should he be constantly abused and just take it."

Funnily enough, I think that very thing when I read reports of how 'fans' scream for James to take his shirt off or grab his ass in photo ops.
I've always been surprised when people say he replied to them quickly - I don't know how he finds the time, and I appreciate it.

He's always been nice to people at conventions and in emails from what I've seen online - but I wouldn't like to mess with him.

I'm sure he's doing an excellent job with JMs career, I've loved almost everything so far, and can't wait to see Brainiac!
Ed Dantes, Steve isn't a PR agent he is a manager. People email him as a manager telling him he isn't doing his job right.

He chooses to be a contact between James and James' fans on that site. He chooses to address fans personally and be the 'face' of 'James-Marsters-as-a-business'. Represent him online. So PR is the main function of this aspect of his job.

Still love the guy. Probably even more now. I can't believe that people cannot appreciate that this is a human being we are talking about here, not a robot. He has feelings too. Why should he be constantly abused and just take it. I admire his forthright honesty in telling it straight."

There are plenty of jobs where you have to deal with people who are stupid. And we all still have to put up with it and stay polite if we want to be considered professionals. And none of us are robots and we're all human beings and we still manage to do our jobs right.

(Btw at no point did you hear me say he sucked at every aspect of his job or something. I'm sure he's great. I'm sure fans are annoying. This was still unprofessional)

If we all were to tell of every moron we had contact with through our work somehow that he was indeed a moron this world would start to look really weird and ugly. I wonder how many of you would appreciate it if people on phones or other places start being rude to you and telling you to screw off if they felt you deserved it. Would you say 'Man you told me to screw off! I love you for that! You're so honest!' I doubt it.

Fans can be stupid. And they will write you, in large quantities, no matter what you do. If that gets to you to the point that you start verbally abusing them on the official site, then you should let someone else handle it.

However, I cannot imagine that giving the fans a dose of their own medicine will stop the negative emails. On the contrary, my guess is that it will encourage even more negative emails, because he's shown that he cannot rise above them. What people who write negative emails want is acknowledgement. So, he just gave them that. Expect more of the same.

Well said. The answer to bad manners isn't supposed to be more bad manners.

[ edited by EdDantes on 2005-07-26 23:12 ]
He's not doing his client any favors.


I can't imagine anyone stopping being a fan of someone just because of this. If they do... well, screw them :-)
There are plenty of jobs where you have to deal with people who are stupid. And we all still have to put up with it and stay polite if we want to be considered professionals. And none of us are robots and we're all human beings and we still manage to do our jobs right.


Several years ago, I worked as a customer service rep for a cable company. The abuse that you take is unreal. And yes, it's your job to take it. But there's some things I refuse to take. My manager never seemed to mind when I warned people who cussed at me on the phone that they would be talking to themselves if they continued. She never seemed to mind when they then called back apologetic either.

Yes, in service positions, you're supposed to take an awful lot, but when you, or one of your coworkers, gets away with putting a customer in their place, c'mon, it feels damn good. :)

If we all were to tell of every moron we had contact with through our work somehow that he was indeed a moron this world would start to look really weird and ugly. I wonder how many of you would appreciate it if people on phones or other places start being rude to you and telling you to screw off if they felt you deserved it. Would you say 'Man you told me to screw off! I love you for that! You're so honest!' I doubt it.


You are right, we shouldn't be telling everybody that they're a moron. We all bite our tongues all the time at work about those we work with. But, sometimes a person deserves it. I've been told at times in the past that I was being ridiculous, overreacting, selfish, etc. Granted, this was mainly by friends or family, but when I'm in the wrong, I don't react badly to being called on it, whatever the circumstance. Frankly, if I'd been one of the people trying to tell Steve how to do his job, I would have felt properly chastized by his response. I can see how others may be motivated to be keep it up, and be nastier, but what does he care. They're going to do it anyway, and he got to feel a bit better.
Wow. That's certainly the most enthusiastic and swift response I've ever had to posting something on here.

For what it's worth, I think a touch of humanity amidst all the spin of Hollywood insincerity is worth a thousand bland press releases. Smallville fans have been a real eye-opener with their cheerful welcome to James Marsters as a guest star - much more positive than some of his most "devoted" fans who do seem to think they own him and won't be happy with anything other than a Spike movie (okay, possibly they'd be happy with a private performance of Macbeth, preferably with him chained to their bedpost). I vote Steve for mascot in the Campaign for Hollywood Real Management (CHaRM).
"I wonder how many of you would appreciate it if people on phones or other places start being rude to you and telling you to screw off if they felt you deserved it. Would you say 'Man you told me to screw off! I love you for that! You're so honest!' I doubt it."

I work in customer service and do very often have to deal with incredibly agressive, abusive and hostile people. I have been condescended to and patronized, I have been sworn at and shout at. I keep my cool.

However, I am also well within my rights to tell the people who are abusive that they are out of line and that is they do not modify their behaviour I will terminate the call. If they still continue I tell them politely that I am terminating the call and hang up.

This is, in a round about way and granted without the politeness, what Steve is doing. He doesn't have to deal with the fans. He doesn't have to take the abuse. This, I feel, is his way of telling the extreme section of fans that if they don't modify their behaviour he is going to cut them off. As might well be the case, it could also mean that the rational fans are also cut off. I don't want that because of some people who are quite clearly desperately ill-mannered.

I hope, for the benefit of all JM fans who benefit from this contact we have with Steve, that his rapping of knuckles is heeded.

[ edited by lynnie on 2005-07-26 23:23 ]
Ah, I like the fact that he's more accessible and human than certain other actors managers at conventions.

Well as far as I am concerned it was a light-hearted poke at uneccesarily rude fans. Not the end of the world, and really very funny :-)
I fully support Jame's manager on this one. Sometimes fans get themselves rubbed up the wrong way and start to get a little over possesive. Example: somebody rang me about 5 minutes ago demanding to know the password to access to Serenity UK advanced screening page on my site. I asked where they'd got my home phone number from. Domain records. I told them I couldn't disclose any details as they are commercially confidential. So then they started SCREAMING at me about how I didn't have a right to withhold THEIR film. So I hung up. So they rang back. I've had to unplug the phone. It's too much.

This just happened.

As you might have seen by Nathan Fillions recent posts, and Joss's posts about theatre staff being threatened about Serenity in the past, and Joss's death threats over Tara... Sometimes fans just get a little too involved and forget what supporting a show, person or idea is about.
I would imagine he's fed up with the people who think they own James. The vast majority of James Marsters' fans that I know are lovely people but like in any fandom there's a tiny element who are obsessive. Good for Steve that's what I say. I'm guessing it took a lot for him to say what he did.
I don't think he owes any apology. I'm pretty tired of some Spike fen whining myself.
This is, in a round about way and granted without the politeness, what Steve is doing.

Yes, but to me, the politeness is key in his job. We all know this is most likely him just fed up with all the negative mail and reacting emotionally. But some might see this as James saying(via his management) 'screw you for not agreeing with all my choices and for thinking I deserve better than Smallville'. I just think when you're representing the face of an actor, you should really weigh your words and reactions. I'm sure any PR person will tell you that you shouldn't react emotionally in the job, at least not publicly. And certainly not negatively. And I still say the words 'screw you' should never come out of a reps 'mouth' toward a fan. Especially in such a public venue.

Steve could just use a bit more finesse, in my opinion. Maybe some of that finesse that comes out of Anya's bottom...

Having said that, I do see how some people find it refreshing that an actor or his rep just says what they feel(and he probably feels much worse, to be honest), particularly because I know how some of James' fans can get. But I still feel it's just not an appropriate reaction, especially without any context to put it in. To the casual observer, it can seem like Steve is being really petty and unprofessional over maybe 2 emails. We know this isn't the case, but not everyone does. I think it's always important to keep in mind how your words/announcements/comments/etc will come off to a new fan or someone unfamiliar with the 'turmoil'.

I think many people are also reacting positively to Steve because he's said what we all want to say sometimes. Or things we have said to other fans on occasion, but it feels justified because someone 'who matters' has said it.

Doesn't change my opinion of his actions, but I can see the vicarious 'screw you' vibe that can get around...
I have no problem with Steve being blunt about this matter. It's one thing to go on the boards and vent about being disappointed JM took the Brainiac role; it's another thing to email his manager a nasty note.
What people fail to realise in many respects is this: actors in LA take any role which offers money as they need it. It's the way it's always been done. The "stars" of Buffy have all done crappy things before Buffy, and after Buffy, guess what, they've done crap things as well. Sure, some have landed fairly well - maybe SMG - but what are the rest doing? Trying to make money. These people aren't heros, outside of Joss's work people probably don't know who they are, etc. Talented? A lot of them are talented, and comitted. But don't think they get to pick and choose which feature film they'll do next. They get back to working the game, being actors.
This is so silly. It's no big deal! The world is still spinning on its axis, and most of us are still alive - and living a bit too comfortably if this kind of thing is going to get people's noses out of joint. There are people starving to death, homeless, and dying in wars, and this is what people get upset about?
JAMES CAN'T BE ON SMALLVILLE EVAH HE'S FAR TO TALENTED FORG8T THE STARVING!
Gossi, don't forget to cc: Steve Himber on your thought ;~P
LMAO, gossi! I think you may be my BDH for the day!
Oh Gossi that sucks what that guy did. Some people shouldn't be allowed to use their computer.
True, none of this is important. I just think 'screw you' is rarely a good answer to any form of disagreement. Believe me no one hates over-fanatical fandom more than I. But I think you can be funnier, more astute and less crude if you do decide to tell them off than just a verbal middle finger.

Plus, apaprently these people wrote him privately (and we can only speculate as to what they actually said) and he flips them the bird publicly without saying much else other than that they don't think James on SM is a good idea. It's just kinda cheap. There's already enough rudeness and verbal abuse on the net and in fandom without professionals from the industry joining in.

This is so silly. It's no big deal! The world is still spinning on its axis, and most of us are still alive - and living a bit too comfortably if this kind of thing is going to get people's noses out of joint. There are people starving to death,

That's all good and well but what this Nebula person fails to realize is that it's the starving who are the problem. ;-)

(That was a joke btw. Anyone catch the reference??)
"the politeness is key in his job"

Actually, not so much. His job is as a manager and as such he is known to be a very tough nut. In JM's own words "you do not want to "F" with him."

His job is not PR or dealing with fans. His job is not dealing with obsessive fans flaming him at every turn. His job is managing actors. The fact that he communicates with the fans is a bonus. One which some people are taking for granted.

I'm wondering if people would have prefered that he politely chastise people, whilst listing their names for public consumption.
I have no idea what gossi or EdDantes is talking about.
My first reaction was to laugh. My second was to say, "He really should not have done that, because people will take offence." ...but I was still smiling.

Although I appreciate where the disapproval is coming from and agree that it can definately be put in the unprofessional category, I would have to also put it in the light-hearted or joking unprofessional category. I am surprised, Ed and Rogue, that you have not given him any leeway for the smiley face at the end of the sentence. I know it can be written off as a lame way to disguise rudeness, but it is the recognized way on the internet to say "I am saying this in a light-hearted or joking manner with a smile on my face." It is accepted on this board in that spirit all the time.

Do I think he meant it to be taken totally as a joke? No. I think he meant it as a clear statement that he was going to manage James's career in the way he felt was best no matter what anyone said. But I also think it was clearly meant to be good natured rather than belligerent.

So, imo he shouldn't have said it, but I find it endearing anyway.

And Gossi, RRRRRRR. To invade you home! Inexcusable.
His job is not PR or dealing with fans. His job is not dealing with obsessive fans flaming him at every turn. His job is managing actors. The fact that he communicates with the fans is a bonus

He has taken on the job of PR and dealing with fans, so in my opinion he should do it politely. Like I said, he may not be getting paid to do it, but he's doing it nonetheless. Just because it's a 'bonus' doesn't mean he shouldn't do it correctly and professionally. But again, that's up for debate, I suppose.
Yes it is. But I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. *offers hand to shake*
Steve Himber owes me nothing. His job is to secure James employment as an actor, and he's done that.

I don't think he was impolite (cheeky perhaps, but not impolite).
Even if he had said something like "Thank you for your concern but James is delighted with the role" there would be those who would criticise him for being cold and impersonal (it's happened before).
I guess my point is, he's being a good manager(because Smallville will certainly give James much needed exposure) but a less than good PR person by letting his emotions get the best of him.
I certainly wouldn't say James should change management or anything. Steve seems to be doing fine by him there.

But anyway, *shakes lynnie's hand*, different fans will react differently, and that's all cool.
Saying over and over again that he is unprofessional doesn't quite make it true.

In my opinion (just mine), I think some people take Steve and James waaay too seriously for any good.

It isn't a big deal. Going on about it just gives it more weight than Steve clearly intended.

I've just read on livejournal a letter written to admonish Steve for being childish and petty, asking him to behave himself in future. How ridiculous.

This just tells me that he was right to say what he did, for all the good it might do him.
Yep, we've truly exhausted this topic. FWIW, I agree with the RogueS/EdD/palehorse line but, lest I cause Nebula1400 any more sighing, I don't find it too big a deal.

EdD: Life of Brian, natch.
EdD: Life of Brian, natch

I think that was that movie Ed made me watch a few weeks ago. British humor. Goes over my Midwestern head...

(Except Fry & Laurie!)
But I also think it was clearly meant to be good natured rather than belligerent.

Hey, perhaps it really was, and we've all indeed wasted too much time on this. I just felt there are better ways to make a point, put annoying fans in their place, and have a bit of fun with it, than just say 'screw you'. Just has no class or humor in it for me. To each their own.

Yep, we've truly exhausted this topic. FWIW, I agree with the RogueS/EdD/palehorse line but, lest I cause Nebula1400 any more sighing, I don't find it too big a deal.

Point.

EdD: Life of Brian, natch.

You have just restored my faith in humanity:-) (Cuz as you can tell, my wife surely didn't. Sigh, Americans...)
I thought Steve was delightful and honest and the teapot tempest made my day.
In the beating a dead horse department, since this has not actually been pointed out and I am a slave to accuracy and the fascinating world of word usage in conveying intent, the quote is

Thank you to all of you who voiced your support and (quite frankly) screw the nay sayers who think they know better :-)


which really is different from the more direct and in your face "screw you." He used the more direct "you" in the part where he was thanking people but was much more indirect in the negative part. For the readers to feel he is talking to them, they have to be a nay-sayer and think they know better. It just lets alot more people off the hook. Maybe that is one reason so many do not seem to be taking offence. Just a thought. (I know, I'm such a language nerd. I read all of the info about "Kibosh" too, and am thinking about going back and bookmarking the site. 'Nuff said.)

"Life of Brian!" That was a movie that I had such an interesting reaction to. (Interesting to myself though not necessarily anyone else.) Python-fans/friends took me to see it when it first came out. I don't think I actually laughed once during the whole movie, but sat there silently thinking, "That was very funny." over and over. It even had a scene in it that is still one of my favorites of any movie. I only saw the movie that once and am still not sure what I thought of it. (Just thought I'd take this opportunity to go waaaaaay off topic in the interest of...I don't know...something helpful.)

So. how about those [insert baseball or cricket team here!]

(Edited because the next post made me so ashamed of all the typos and bad spelling I left in my post when I went running off to feed my child. Gee, noe the little ingrate wants me to tuck him in! ;-) )

[ edited by newcj on 2005-07-27 05:14 ]
Wow, reading comprehension! That's as rare as correct spelling and proper grammar on the Internet. Yes, I caught that he wasn't actually saying "screw you," but I didn't have the energy to argue the point. Kudos to you!

Also, I had the same reaction to Life of Brian. My friends actually thought I didn't like the movie because I didn't laugh. I just sat there quietly taking it all in and thinking "that was funny." Search for the Holy Grail will always have a special place in my heart. Plus, I think of Anya now everytime I see the bunny scene.
Wow, reading comprehension! That's as rare as correct spelling and proper grammar on the Internet. Yes, I caught that he wasn't actually saying "screw you," but I didn't have the energy to argue the point. Kudos to you!


Well, I actually do have reading comprehension, but when you say 'screw a group of people', it is the same as 'screw you, you group of people'. So when discussing this, we use the shorter 'screw you' instead of quoting the whole sentence. Because it is an implied 'you' to the people who wrote him and pissed him off.

What he did was try to imply that everyone reading it was a supporter and not in that the 'vague group' of naysayers-though he knows the 'naysayers' will read it, otherwise why else address them at all or bring up the negativity?

The tactic is slightly more smart than saying 'screw you to the naysayers'(which seems more aggressive). But for my money, the point I disagree with is saying 'screw' anyone in any form, which is what he's done. I personally never thought it was directed at me, because I didn't write him to complain. Nor do I take direct offense at his statement. I happen to agree with him in sentiment. Just didn't think he should have said(or typed) it, is all. I'm not sure anyone here took personal offense at his statement, I think the biggest debate was whether he should have said it(regardless of it's correctness).
newcj, I already bookmarked that site, or rather, I e-mailed the URL to myself since I am currently on holidays using someone else's computer. So how geeky is that?
Wow, long thread. I got somewhat confused during reading it, let me see if I got this right: if I disagree with Steve Himber I get screwed by James?

STEVE YOU SUCK BIG TIME!!!
no miranda

sadly if you disagree with Steve you get screwed by Steve

in the light of which you may or may not wish to reconsider your remarks :)
samatwitch, I'm kinda feeling geeky becuase I DIDN'T bookmark it right away, but have been thinking about how I should have all this time and will, some time soon, go back into the archives to find it and bookmark it. How much more energy does that take? (shakes head at self) Kudos to you for being on top of things. ;-)
if you disagree with Steve you get screwed by Steve

in the light of which you may or may not wish to reconsider your remarks :)


Or possibly Steve may wish to reconsider his, when he realises the implications?
Go James! Go Steve! Screw everybody else! Mwahahaha.

That is all.

*Returns to writing epic Spike/Lex erotica..*
Unless you were one of the ones emailing Steve and complaining, I'm not quite sure how anyone could take offence at his remarks.
I'm seeing it's the word screw rather than the sentiment people are taking issue with. Maybe we should send Steve a list of words that roughly mean the same thing, but sound quaint and British. Stuff the nay sayers is fairly mild, sod or b*gger are a little stronger but still so quaint. ;-)

Ruadh I do find it odd that so much offense is being taken over a word. Like I said, not the sentiment, but the word. It might not be the height of politeness, but there are worse.

I would have thought only those guilty of whatever it is he is reacting to would take offense. *shrugs*
I really can't back this up but this whole conversation seems awfully familiar. Didn't we have one just like this before James went on the Mountain? Or made some of other career decision? Hasn't Steve said something so easily misunderstood before this? I just finished reading this whole thread and felt an overwhelming sense of deja vu.

FWIW - Life of Brian is very theologically sound - I watched it in a class I had on Jesus on the Silverscreen and it's quite accurate. I thought that was very interesting to find out.
but when you say 'screw a group of people', it is the same as 'screw you, you group of people'.

No, there's a difference between "screw you" and "screw them". The "you" is addressing the reader. The "them" is addressing some anonymous group. If I weren't a member of the online fandom, I doubt it would occur to me that he's talking about any of the fans. If it were me, I wouldn't have even acknowledged that naysayers exist. There are certainly valid arguments to be made that this isn't the the most appropriate way to respresent his client, but the statement doesn't equate to screw you.
but the statement doesn't equate to screw you.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I just got the feeling Steve knew that those folks would be reading his message as well, and he wanted to box them around the ears a bit, so to speak. I don't see the point of mentioning it at all if he didn't expect them to see it. No need pointing out there is dissention in the fandom if it's not necessary.

And like I said in my previous post, and agree with you, he does word it in a way of 'Us vs Them' by saying 'thank YOU' and 'screw THEM'. But again, I don't see why he'd even say it if he didn't aim it for someone.

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