More choice quotes from Whedon and Minear on the Serenity pilot (from Cinefantastique).
Joss
I wanted to do something that felt very contemporary and the way we were able to experiment - some of the prettiest frames I’ve ever had the opportunity to make are in that show. And of course when we were working on the set, we were working over the tank they had dug for Alien Resurrection, so I felt like there was an exorcism of sorts going on.
Tim
The thing that killed me about “Serenity” is that it’s so clearly great and the network just decided they didn’t like it. The network had certain notes and certain reasons for not liking it. Joss went out and shot additional footage. He added the battle footage at the beginning, for instance. He went through and found places to lighten things up, add jokes and tighten some areas that might have been a little flat. He answered every single criticism that the network may have had about that two-hour pilot, and they didn’t even look at it.
gossi | July 30, 01:20 CET
Alas, the radio host was not impressed and moved on to the next call.
Chris inVirginia | July 30, 01:33 CET
ShotgunWes | July 30, 01:35 CET
Apocalypse | July 30, 01:38 CET
embers | July 30, 01:51 CET
gossi | July 30, 02:27 CET
Caroline | July 30, 02:33 CET
gossi | July 30, 02:38 CET
I watched the first two episodes when it first aired, but it was on at a bad time for me so I couldn't keep up with it. Plus the storyline and introduction were a little confusing - now I know why, because they didn't air the original pilot first. Watching the entire series on DVD in the order Whedon intended made all the difference, so shame on FOX for mutilating such a great show. I may be a little late to the party, but I now consider myself a big fan and I can't wait until the film premiere.
Saturn Girl | July 30, 02:54 CET
kishi | July 30, 03:00 CET
Rogue Slayer | July 30, 03:13 CET
Simon | July 30, 03:17 CET
TamaraC | July 30, 03:20 CET
Simon | July 30, 03:24 CET
gossi | July 30, 03:26 CET
TamaraC | July 30, 03:27 CET
Simon | July 30, 03:30 CET
MySerenity | July 30, 03:33 CET
I can recall how excited I was when I heard Joss was creating a new show. Then, I found myself scatching my head in confusion after the first episode. Joss' trademark wit was there, but it didn't make sense. By the time I viewed the fourth episode, I was completely baffled. Then the show moved or something, and I didn't care enough to give it chase.
It was only later when I heard what Fox did and, when the DVD set came out, I decided to give it another chance. The difference was night and day. I was glued in my seat and I watched the entire series in one sitting. Afterwards, I cursed Fox for ruining Joss' vision on this great series.
Sorry for pulling ears, I'll get off my soapbox now.
Madhatter | July 30, 04:13 CET
And if Glenn Beck knew about this, he'd agree with me.
I'm also pleased Sci-Fi taking "Firefly" as a chance to promote Serenity. It's a very smart move
[ edited by impalergeneral on 2005-07-30 02:41 ]
impalergeneral | July 30, 04:40 CET
eddy | July 30, 05:17 CET
Genia | July 30, 05:34 CET
Also, the theme raised goosebumps! I watch my dvd quite frequently, but tonight I knew that a bunch of newbies and fans alike were seeing it too. Nothing but a Whedon show can do that to me.
Joss you magnificent bastard.
Willowy | July 30, 06:04 CET
Madhatter | July 30, 06:46 CET
Genia, I think I love you :-) I feel exactly the same as you on this. Before Firefly first aired I was hesitant to watch, the Fox promos made it look rather dull and nothing like the high quality of Buffy and Angel that I was used to and continually amazed by. However, I decided to give it a chance because of my faith in Joss (and Tim, I always love his work on Angel!).
Despite how most of us feel about their talkback forums (I too avoid them at all costs), Ain't It Cool News really deserves a lot of credit for consistently and enthusiastically promoting the series and helping me to keep up to date on what was happening on the show and when to tune in for the next episode - of course, this was before I found out about this site ;-)
It took some extra time and dedication but it was definitely worth it because I am truly grateful for what we had back then and what we have now. Please don't anyone misinterpret my words as an indictment of those who didn't get it on first viewing because that's not at all what I'm on about. In celebration of the shiny new trailer (even though this quote isn't in it), remember, "we've all come to the same place."
gorramit | July 30, 07:21 CET
Firefly Flanatic | July 30, 07:21 CET
Let me tell you guys some of my own experience, before rambling on my thoughts about "Serenity" (the pilot episode, not the movie). It'll be long, since I seem to be uncapable of summarizing my thoughts, but I'll try to reach my point ASAP. (hope I don't write too many sp or grammar mistakes on the way, it's been some time, that I've written such a long text in english).I'll even apologize at first, to whomever read this, if I start sounding too whiny in some parts, and that it was gossi's post about "Firefly not being for every whedonfan", that inspired me to write this huge post (I had a long day, it made me want to write).
As some of you may already know I live in Brazil, and it does give our general local viewer an interesting standpoint(it may applies also to other non-english-native-speaking countries), on how they watch a tv show.
Especially a tv show from a foreign country, in which the spoken language is not a native one. Buffy's was shown dubbed in portuguese from season 1 until early season 5 (with optional original sound through parrallel audio in stereo tvs). Angel was shown dubbed in Portuguese from season 1 until early season 2. From those point on, they started to show it with original sound, with portuguese Subtitles. FIrefly was fully shown with subtitles.
Firefly, had a very limited run over here(like 1 full run on prime time, and 2 or 3 reruns in alternative hours, in non specific months), only though Fox and in Full Screen (which's a cable tv network over here), with the messed up order, but we did get to watch all episodes. I taped all of them, and reordered them in what was believed to be the official order back then, which was the shooting order, instead the now official episode order from the DVDs. Bare in mind that this was way before the DVD set was even announced, but the nice part is that I got the "Objects In Space" version, with the scenes that were cut in the DVD version.
Most of people that I call my best friends nowadays, I met because of Buffy and Angel, and how that happenned, it's still a great deal that keeps our group of friends sticked together, and bringing more people in even after the shows ended. As I pointed before, the shows were shown either dubbed or subtitled, and as it was, unabled someone without some level of english proficiency, to rely sorely on what the translation conceived. The translation was able to translate the basic meaning of the lines, most of the time, but it hollowed the original writing. What sold the shows, was its core feeling and storytelling. But weak translation could make great whedonverse dialogues, starting sound like things that was coming out from something as awful as Charmed. And just as the sidenote, to complicate things even more, the company that was doing the subtitles later on(the same one for Buffy, Angel and Firefly), was a horrible one, that made even abismal mistakes with some basic english phrases.
It was a hard sell.
I've said sometime ago that when I heard the "space western" concept as the basis for Firefly, the so called "Joss Whedon new show" back then, I did feel put down a bit. I was never a fan of western, which we must admit, is something very American, sometimes too American. And there was never a sci-fi space show, that made me really interested, even though I'm fascinated by the subject. I did try all the Star Trek variations availabe at the time, but never got me really hooked. Basically, Firefly, as an initial concept didn't attract me at all, what made me watch it, it was because I was a whedon fan, and wanted to know what his new show was all about.
I watched "Train Job", "Bushwacked" and even "Serenity"(I started watching before local Fox started showing them in Brazil, cause I was downloading them), but they didn't made me fall for Firefly at spot, only making me think that it was good stuff from the whedon people, until I fell in love with it in the following episodes.
Vampires is a easier concept to sell. Well, things related or corcening legends, supernatural, supersticion, witchcraft, etc. tend to be easier to sell as fiction. Most of the current succesful brazilian fiction writers nowadays, dive into these themes in their books. It plays with people's imagination, and tend to be very naturally romantic. It made BtVS and Angel, more easilly, universal.
In Firefly, we were playing in other grounds. Even though it was a hypothetical future world, it was bleaker, dustier and more grounded in "reality" than the Buffyverse shows. And it takes time to some people to see it being as rich and complex as the other whedon created shows.
I don't know if the effect is the same for native viewers, as it is for foreign non-native speaking viewers, but it only made it even harder to sell. Without REALLY getting the writing, at first watching, people may get lost in what's happening, and I believe bad translation did help the confusion a bit. "Are there no Aliens at all" question, tend to pop up in the mind.
Plainly, for my experience, in the local fan community, I can't really account many real browncoats over here. I did convince a few friends (all of them Whedonfans from Buffyverse) of mine to watch it, but most of them only liked the show, but not loved it. I know only two people locally to be active fireflans beside myself, but I don't think they're as outspoken about this as me. Currently, I lent my VHS set for a friend, and my DVD set for another friend, but its taking so much time for them to watch it, that I wonder if they are really enjoying it. And whenever I ask, they just tell me, it's good, it's fun, but that's it.
I realized long time ago, that Serenity-wise, Brazil is not such a huge important market for the movie. I'm curious about how it will sell in Asia, but I'm mostly concerned about Brazil, for the selfish reason, that I live here now, and not in Taiwan. We're not the US, not Canada, not Australia, not UK, heck we're not even Portugal, which is at least closer to the Netherlands, well, not the Europe in general. I think that wheter the US Box Office (maybe plus the other english speaking countries) goes well enough or not, considering that "Serenity" (the movie), is not one of those big budget blockbuster that studios release in US' summer, it'll be enough to get us the answer if we'll get a Big Damn Sequel or not, not mattering so much how it do elsewhere. But I really hoped the movie could do well over here. Most people have never heard of the show. People who own the dvd set, had to import it, cause the show never made such an impact locally, and Fox Home Entertainment, is just an awful distributor over here, disrepecting the fans a lot, and overpricing their dvd sets.
Well, Firefly, is harder sell to other viewers, even other whedon-fans, cause it also depends on how each viewer appeciates the whedon show of which he or she is a fan of, so not everyone likes it.
Now, finally into "Serenity" (The Pilot episode)...
Again, I do agree with gossi, about people being put down, about how long it takes to the episode to kick into action. Considering, that current tv shows, are running, about 40 to 42 minutes (minus final letter credits)an episode, 35 minutes is too long.
It's a masterful 90 minutes, that introduce us to the 'verse, but it's hard for some people (emphasis on the some) to take in from this.
Thanks to the "magic" of the Internet, I did get to see both the screener version and later the official version of this episode. And the largest difference between about the feeling from the first one to the official one, is that the new one, actually let us see what was like in the war, it's a case that "show, don't tell" really works into motion, which is better than the exposition scene from the old one.
I don't think I'd feature this episode as one of my top 5 favorites from the series. You do appreciate the whole series better seeing the whole run in the correct other, but just like when you're surfing through channels, and bump into something in the middle and gets interested. It might work better in a few cases, when you're trying to initiate someone on the show, by trying to show the person, some episode, closer to his/her taste first, see the reaction and then go back to the beginning. It's a little bit fox-ish, by showing things out of order at first. But it's something more like, "You think this cool?", "So we'll play things from the beginning for ya!"
It is difficult to sell and show a new concept. Even "Welcome to the Hellmouth", which might be considered the buffyverse first official pilot (yeah, I know about the other Willow version, but I'm talking about what's shown to general public), is not that much first, since we had that 92' movie, which is indirectly connected to the tv show.
I believe reading back when Fox was lauching Firefly, about the execs complaining, about "Serenity's" lenght and pacing, and then they made Joss turn up Train Job to be the "new" Pilot for public.
Overall, I'd really like to see newbie's comments about "Serenity" (the pilot), not from one, but newbie's with different "backgrounds", like "sci-fi friendly", "non-scifi friendly", "whedon fan, but not a browncoat", "whedon fan, but non-scifi friendly", so on a on, just to see how the views might vary.
That's it, thanks for anyone who took those few minutes to glance at this huge post.
[ edited by Numfar PTB on 2005-07-30 07:31 ]
Numfar PTB | July 30, 09:15 CET
Okay, my thoughts on the Serenity two parter and how newbies are taking it is hard for me to judge because I never got to experience it as the actual beginning of Firefly and my first look at the show was The Train Job. I have to admit that I wasn't too thrilled with the premise of the show but tuned in just because of how much I loved BtVS and AtS. I felt I owed it to Joss to just check out the show and give my support. The Train Job as the pilot was an okay episode but it had it's problems as the show introducing the world to this new 'verse of Joss'. It wasn't love at first viewing for me. I could see glimmers of the possibility of it and it was enough to keep me watching. The definite moment that made me want to see more, though, was Mal kicking that guy into the engine and then he starts to tell the next guy the same exact message. By the third episode I was absolutely hooked. And when I finally got to see the pilot I was blown away by how great I thought it was. I don't think it's slow at all and I felt it was almost like a movie all by itself. It would've set up the series wonderfully and would've been a great introduction to who everyone was and what the premise of the entire show was. I was so utterly pissed off at Fox for showing it to us last, after they had decided to cancel the show.
And now when I watch the dvds in the proper order I totally love The Train Job. And the reason is, I know who they all are. The pilot gives you that background and without it, it takes a few episodes to feel like you know these characters. Someone once compared it to missing the first couple of episodes of BtVS and seeing The Witch as the introduction episode. The Witch is a great episode and very funny, but without knowing who each person is you'd lose a whole bunch.
Anyway, I know people who loved BtVS and/or loved AtS but haven't watched Firefly yet. I think Numfar said it best that some people are totally into the idea of fantasy like BtVS & AtS have to offer and they see Firefly as just some Sci fi/western and it doesn't appeal to them the same way. They may think they loved both those shows because of it's fantasy roots and may not realize that that was just a small part of the magic and that the biggest part of the magic was the writing and sense of family Joss was able to convey. To me, Firefly captures that feel the best. I love BtVS and AtS but if Buffy had ended after that first season I would've been disappointed but probably wouldn't have been too upset and if AtS had only lasted one season I would've been okay about that too because I think both of those shows hit their strides in their second seasons where they really, really got into just how great they could be. Firefly had that feel just a few episodes in (and if I had been able to see the pilot first, it would've hit me all the quicker). I felt it was brilliant from the get go. I felt that BtVS & AtS were where Joss learned and mastered his craft and that Firefly was going to be his masterpiece and blow both those shows out of the water. I just loved it that much. And, up until that point, I never thought a show would ever be able to compete with how much I loved BtVS (loved AtS too but to me, it was always an extension of BtVS). When Objects in Space aired I was going crazy knowing that that was it. No more Firefly! I was beside myself with anger, hate and disgust with Fox for cancelling this brilliant show. And it was frustrating too because there weren't that many people to vent too because most people had never even heard of it.
Firefly Flanatic | July 30, 09:59 CET
By the way, YOU HAVE "SPACED"!!!!? Where did you get it?! How did you get it?! Is it on DVD? Do you have to have a Region Free DVD player? I saw some clips from it (before I saw SHAUN OF THE DEAD) and I thought it was hysterical. Really looked like my kind of show.
batmarlowe | July 30, 12:08 CET
I have not had much time to watch TV since my son was born (just about the time BTVS premiered,) so I did not get the full impact of BTVS until it was in reruns. When I did, I tried ATS and found that it did not really grab me the way BTVS did. I had never heard of Firefly until I went online looking for BTVS info. By that time Serenity was looking like a possibility.
I am not someone who spends $30 on an unknown quantity that I am going to have to store somewhere and I do not have Netflix. I checked our local rental outlets and nobody had it. When I went to the Kerry fundraiser, I was hoping that someone would bring Firefly and I would be able to watch an episode. Luckily not only did that happen, but someone loaned me the DVD's as well.
There was a group discussion at the fundraiser as to what episode to show me first because we were all running late and did not have the time to show "Serenity I & 2". It was decided to show me "Out of Gas." It was a good choice and made me want to see more. Interestingly enough, the first DVD was set to play the "Train Job" first, as was the first DVD of the set I later bought. Not knowing how the DVD was set up, I ended up watching the "Train Job" first thinking it was "Serenity." Kind of ironic.
Anyway, bottom line is that I liked it, but did not absolutely love it. I recently turned a friend of mine on to BTVS and she has had the same reaction to both ATS and Firefly that I did. Liked but not loved. Would I love Firefly if there had been a full first season or a 2nd season? Very possibly. I agree that it was a much more developed show in the first 13 episodes than BTVS or ATS had been. If I had been watching TV when it was on, I would have probably tried to watch it.
That said, I went to a preview of Serenity and loved the movie. That same friend, her husband, my son's dad, my brother and maybe one or two others are planning on going to see it together when it opens. My brother is a Science fiction fan who was ok with Firefly, but felt Joss did fantasy better than Sci Fi. My friend is a horror fan. My son's dad and I just like a good story that really takes us somewhere interesting.
So if a Whedon fan missed Firefly on TV, it does not seem strange at all to me that they may not have seen it yet. $30 does not seem like a lot to many people to throw away on something that they may not care for (and something they then have to find a place to keep) but many of us have to think about whether it fits into the budget and what we will have to not buy in order to buy this unknown piece of entertainment.
As far as people being more inclined to watch something that also has an actor that they already like in it, well...yeah. An actor you like, a writer you like, that is not a really strange concept if you think about it. ;-)
newcj | July 30, 18:48 CET
There was a thread awhile back where the subject of Spaced came up and suggestions on how to hack your dvd player. I have two dvd players and I put each of their names and serial number into google and did a search like "Cyberhome CH-DVD 500 Hack". And within a second I had a hack for my Cyberhome dvd player. It was so easy to do and all I needed was my dvd player remote to change it from region 1 to all regions.
So once I was able to hack it I bought a set from a UK website called sendit.com. Had to do the whole conversion price thing but it was comparable to what people were offering on Ebay. The shipment was less than a week too. There are people on Ebay selling Spaced on DVD that are supposed to be all region but I don't know how good those would be.
Firefly Flanatic | July 30, 20:14 CET
I'm not exactly a "newbie", but I watched 'Firefly' for the very first time when I bought the DVD a few months ago, largely inspired to do so by the enormous dedication to the show I had discovered amongst regulars here at WHEDONesque.
I'm not sure what category I would put myself into from the suggestions made by Numfar PTB. I greatly admire Joss Whedon's work, although, were I to be entirely truthful, I would call myself a 'Buffy fan' rather than a 'Whedon fan'. I love some sci-fi, but equally dislike a lot of it. I'm not a huge fan of westerns but would probably count 'The Searchers' and 'The Shootist' amongst my favourite films.
The first time I watched 'Serenity' (the episode) my curiosity was piqued. I was intrigued to see more. However, watching all the episodes, I thought there was much to be impressed by, but I didn't fall in love with the show. It didn't engage me on an emotional level. Watching it for a second time, the same thing happened. I remained impressed, but, generally speaking, I wasn't moved by it.
Earlier on in this thread it was suggested that Whedon fans who claimed not to like 'Firefly' could never provide a single decent reason to support that view. Well, I could give some reasons why I don't love 'Firefly'. However, it would simply be my opinion (based on my own personal tastes) and, quite simply, why would anyone be interested? We are here to celebrate the work of Joss Whedon, and the fact that this doesn't happen to be my favourite example of his work is neither here nor there.
'Firefly' was clearly a fine show. It's one that I might not ever fall in love with, but I will go to see 'Serenity' (the film). I have no reason to believe that I won't enjoy it and I hope it's a huge success.
alien lanes | July 30, 20:30 CET
Madhatter | July 30, 22:48 CET
batmarlowe | July 31, 02:32 CET
Multi-Region Hacks for Domestic DVD Players
They don't have a search feature so you'll have to go through the pages until you find what you're looking for. There are other sites like this so if just doing the google search doesn't work trying looking for "All Region dvd player Hacks" or "Zero region dvd player hacks".
[ edited by Firefly Flanatic on 2005-07-31 00:49 ]
Firefly Flanatic | July 31, 02:36 CET
I knew I was going to continue watching the show at the end of "Train Job" when Mal tells the Sheriff he really didn't have a choice [about returning the medical supplies]. I think I caught every episode, although I remember searching through my TV Guide to discover where Fox had moved it to now!!
When the show was cancelled, I went to a fan site on the Internet for probably the first time, found out about the DVDs and pre-ordered them. When they arrived, I went home and watched them all in about three days (while working full-time). I then managed to convert a couple of friends - and several more since then, although nowhere near ChrisInVirginia. It was through listening to the commentaries on the DVDs that I became interested enough in checking out Angel (by accident) and then Buffy, when the opportunity arose. I taped and watched Angel on Space Channel four days a week until I'd seen all five seasons, then watched them again on the DVDs I now own. For Buffy, watching five days a week on TV was too slow, so I bought all seven seasons and watched them all at least once within three months, and have now watched Seasons 4 - 7 several times!
I admit to being a lover of all things Joss, including his "X-Men" comics - and it's been a good many years since I read or bought comics. I can't count the ways that my life has changed for the better since becoming involved with Joss's work, from the good friends I have met and shared good times with in our local Browncoats group, the friends I have met on-line - and in some cases, in person - through Whedonesque, Flickr and the Serenity board - to experiences which have broadened my perspective and helped me grow. Now, when friends question me about changes in my life, I just say, "It's all Joss's fault!!" :)
samatwitch | August 01, 05:33 CET
April | August 02, 20:56 CET