Hmm, gotta say, tenuous link...

Rogue Slayer | August 18, 08:48 CET

Anyone else think this is sort of uhm... rude?

TheZeppo | August 18, 08:53 CET

Zeppo, yeah my gut reaction is "where do they get off?" If they wanted to do an homage, there are subtler ways of doing it. This feels kinda like a dig. I guess we'd have to see it to say for sure.

jam2 | August 18, 09:01 CET

Yeah, I guess so, jam2. I've never watched the show, but plan to when James is on. Guy can do no wrong. Or at least hasn't yet.

TheZeppo | August 18, 09:08 CET

Yup -- that sounds like the kind of intelligent, witty humor Smallville is reknowned for!

(Unless they've decided to try stepping up to irony. Somebody string the safety net up underneath them.)

bookrats | August 18, 09:15 CET

Yeah, I've watched probably a total of 2 hours of Smallville, in bits and pieces of different episodes, and not to be a total Joss-snob, but I feel like it just doesn't match up. I think the cast is ok (good-looking for sure), the production values are really good, but the writing lacks the depth/nuance/afore-mentioned-irony of Joss' shows.

But yeah, I'll have to check out James on it. =)

jam2 | August 18, 09:35 CET

About a third, maybe half (depending on what kinda week they're having) of the cast is actually pretty talented. It's just that the writing rarely does them any favors. Sometimes they can rise above the poorly thought out storylines and/or iffy dialogue (usually it's the plots I have a problem with, especially when their major arcs are ill-conceived or start to collapse on themselves. The dialogue is usually serviceable enough), but when you get right down to it, the big problem is the characters themselves. Many of them aren't very well developed, or at least haven't been in a way that would bring many viewers to care much about them.

And they really gotta stop featuring the kind of scenes that basically read, "here, spelled out for you the viewer, who we will assume is dumb as bricks, is the lesson Clark learned today". I loved in this one ep when Lex made fun of Papa Kent's platitudes, his way-too-easy moralizing. It was like the critics spoke through the character and finally were able to vicariously bitch-slap Jonathan Kent on-screen like he deserved. I should be nicer to fictional characters with heart conditions, shouldn't I?

This Buffy/vampire sorority thing sounds like a mess. I don't predict the kind of homage we'd appreciate.

Kris | August 18, 09:51 CET

Well that is a weird story line. I like the actress though! I think she was in Animorphs.

charisma | August 18, 10:12 CET

I honestly don't mind the Buffy references, especially when Steve DeKnight is writing it and James is in it. It's far better than the first two seasons, which had no humor at all.

It was like the critics spoke through the character and finally were able to vicariously bitch-slap Jonathan Kent on-screen like he deserved. I should be nicer to fictional characters with heart conditions, shouldn't I?

So I'm not the only one who can't stand Jonathan Kent! I really want him and Lana to die, but I don't think that's going to happen any time soon.

ETA: Brook Nevins was in Animorphs (which was run by a fired Buffy writer), and The 4400 (which now has Douglas Petrie writing for it).

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2005-08-18 08:22 ]

Nebula1400 | August 18, 10:20 CET

Oh ho ho, the irony!

.. Smallville sucks.

KBP | August 18, 10:21 CET

If we're going to keep this thread, could someone please put spoiler tags on the original post and please change the sentence following the headline (which is a major spoiler)?

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2005-08-18 08:27 ]

Nebula1400 | August 18, 10:25 CET

Fixed it for you Nebula1400, tho I don't really see how it was all that spoilery.

SlayerTV | August 18, 10:43 CET

Oh, and yeah Charisma she was on Animorphs. :) I've been following her since then.

SlayerTV | August 18, 10:47 CET

Well it was kind of spoilery.

Given the latest new on guest star (stunt?) casting, Carrie Fisher will appear, I've decided that Smallville has now turned into the Will and Grace of genre television. It's not a good sign for a show when they have to rely on guest stars to get headlines.

And besides, why don't we just have a Lex spinoff?

Simon | August 18, 10:50 CET

....

I feel kinda, I dunno, insulted? Maybe coz Smallville isn't really all that it has the potential to be.

Ironically, this is the third (4th if you count Angel) WB show to have a character on it named Buffy. There's the obvious one, and there was that show a few years ago...the remake of an older show with the butler in New York? And, hey, this.

Just a pointless observation.

[ edited by Emma Frost on 2005-08-18 08:54 ]

Emma Frost | August 18, 10:53 CET

Papa Kent should probably pass just for the Superman/Smallville mythos if nothing else. But I completely agree with some of you (or at least one of you) who feel lana's character has overstayed her welcome. I'll be glad the minute clark moves on to college/metropolis and leaves lana in smallville and in his wake. This upcoming year has good potential in my opinion (especially after the 4th season, which wasn't nearly as strong as the 3rd which has been my favorite season thus far). Hopefully the 5th season can be as good or better then the 3rd, because I fear if it isn't it may be its last. I mean, look how good the 5th season of Angel and Buffy was and they were still canned by the WB. Smallville better do something great or else I strongly fear it will follow these greater-shows paths. Personally I'd be suprised if it makes it past this 5th season, but if this season is something great - then I hope it does get the 6th and 7th season the creators/writers hope for. If not, they could try the spinoff approach. Or knowing my luck, if it is indeed a good/best season it will be canceled and never heard of again (and I can't see UPN saving it like they did buffy, still to this day I wish they would've saved Angel for a couple more seasons like they had buffy... but I am quite the dreamer). Oh well, we'll see... I'll stop ramblin' :)

RIPWesley | August 18, 11:17 CET

Metropolis U, eh? I've really been wondering how they're going to do this next season. Maybe Clark will commute from the farm or something. Smallville really just hit a point of extreme strain, because the premise was inherently hard to maintain for more than a season or two.

As for Brooke Nevin, congrats to her. I played an ELF member with her in that episode of Head Cases (I was just background really) and from the little bit I chatted with her, she's a very cool girl. I wish I had known at the time she was into Buffy.

Celluloid Novelist | August 18, 11:43 CET

...I feel as though my fandoms are colliding. I hated the Animorphs television show with a passion (complete trainwreck of a show), but even now I completely adore the book series, which reminds me of a mix of Buffy, The X-Files, Star Trek, and the Discovery Channel. But mostly Buffy: witty banter, pop culture references, and a willingness to go to the dark place despite its initially silly-sounding premise.

Incidentally, on the Animorphs TV show, Brooke played Rachel, a kickass, smart, witty blonde who seemed like an everyday shopaholic SoCal girl, but was in fact part of a group that saved the world on a weekly basis. She was also involved in a cross-species romance that was doomed from day one. As the series went on, she became somewhat overcome by how easily violence came to her.

So I find the casting extremely ironic, but probably not in the way most other people do.

meimi | August 18, 11:43 CET

As a indirect link to this matter, just watched last weeks 4400, and it was written and directed by Doug Petrie.
It was an ok episode, building up for two part season finale.
But it did remind me of "Billy", with all the men going crazy and pumped with rage.

No she didn't appear in the episode, but since every news I'm reading indicates her most famous part yet, has been that Nikki from 4400 1st season, thought this might be mentionable.

Numfar PTB | August 18, 12:40 CET

I'm kinda disappointed here...

Seeing the subject of the thread, I was waiting for Simon to post a "Besides, Smallville sucks"... and I can't manage to find this sentence in his post.

Simon, what the hell is happening to you?? :P

Le Comité | August 18, 13:49 CET

Maybe it is my bad memory but have there ever been a TV show where the villain was the main character ?

Just remembered quickly cancelled Profit, any other tips for those of us who frequently enjoys the villains more than the 'nominal' leads ?

jpr | August 18, 14:04 CET

jpr - Dallas? ;-)

purplehazel | August 18, 14:50 CET

That's a hard question to answer jpr, because if you have a morally bankrupt protagonist, you start to identify somewhat, and it becomes ambiguous whether they're "the villain."

I suppose The Sopranos would qualify.

Celluloid Novelist | August 18, 15:05 CET

Lex's full name is Alexander! Like Xander! Like as in Buffy! OMG.

*loves 'Smallville' unrepentantly*

*loves DeKnight*

*mocks the snobs*

Bad Kitty | August 18, 15:28 CET

The episode was written by Steven DeKnight. It's called "Thrist" and it airs right before Halloween. I have no problem with the references since they come from a former Buffy writer.

killinj | August 18, 16:37 CET

Like and Lex was created first so JW just like so mocked the comic and called one of his characters Xander. *I'm rolling eyes here*

On a slightly more serious note, I'm not bothered about the Buffy reference and I'm at a loss as to why anyone is bothered by it. Plenty of shows reference Btvs so why is it that they don't get slammed for it. Or is it because this is a WB show?

It's a Halloween episode, the first I am told for SV. It has a Btvs/Ats writer doing this ep and he's paying homage to the show. It's not like they never did that to other shows and films on Btvs and Ats. Didn't see anyone slamming JW for that.

Just to refer back to the original post, and thank you for the link, but just to clarify that JM will be in this episode.

The plot with the vampires is only one part of the episode. There is also Lex and Fine, and Chloe and the Daily Planet editor, the casting for which I think is wonderful. She's a good actress and I can very much see her playing the hell out of the part and hope it's not just for one episode.

Plus as JM is a huuuuge SW fan I bet he's pretty giddy right about now. Bless. :0)

lynnie | August 18, 16:48 CET

Written by Steven DeKnight. Is Jeph Loeb (of Buffy animated) still working on Smalville?

While this all sounds a bit "funny" I am some what split inmy feelings about this.

- Shows what a pop-cultural Icon Buffy(-verse) has became.

- This is the same network who "killed" Angel.

But I watched Smalville the first three seasons and I will probably be back thsi year.

Jonas | August 18, 17:22 CET

The more discussion I read, the more I'm interested in watching the episode. I'm like a few Whedonesquers: "Well, I've tuned in from time to time and much of it does seem okay... kinda haven't gotten hooked but well it's okay..."

On a loosely related note and subject I'm much less familiar with, if someone reading has an opinion on the writer of the Superman movie, could you briefly pass it along? Just curious and wondering if it's a promising project, given interest in the non-frequent-enough comic/film adaptations that rise above mediocre expectations?

April | August 18, 17:22 CET

Consider this the "sister" episode to last year's ALIAS salute to Buffy ("Nocturne"). I guess when former ME writers join the staff of a genre show, everybody wants to do one vampire-related ep as a tribute. (Let's have Marti Noxon join the staff of 7th Heaven, and she what she can come up with...)

cjl | August 18, 18:22 CET

Okay, so there's going to be a Buffy in it, and one of the actors just happens to be the guy who played Spike... I think that's a little much. Not to mention Steve DeKnight is going to be writing.

Pmacca01 | August 18, 19:06 CET

Don't forget the vampires, Pmacca01.

April | August 18, 19:10 CET

I for one am just looking forward to seeing James again...I don't care if its for 5 episodes or 10...I will watch. He is one of the most talented actors EVER to grace my TV screen, and he has never disappointed yet...so I can not wait. I think there is nothing wrong with trying to improve a show with guest spots from very popular actors....I mean it happens all the time...so what??????? Maybe Carrie Fischer is a SV buff...and wanted to get on the show. If adding popular stars works and more people watch..then all the better. I just hope there is a lot more out there for James past SV, because if Hollyweird was smart they would start recruiting TALENT in shows....and not just mindless, shallow young stuff..... James has it all over these 'new' hearthrobs...he has the looks, charisma...and plus...HE CAN ACT.

And as for the Buffy references and hints...I kinda think it's cool....I'll enjoy it.....and plus I love DeKnights writing....

kathylovesspike | August 18, 19:22 CET

Jonas, Jeph Loeb has left the staff of Smallville. Thare's a interviews with him in Kryptonsite where he talks about leaving. He just signed an exclusive contract with Marvel Comics, to write comics for them, though he'll still finish his tenure in his current DC Comics title, Supergirl.

Yeah, he wielded strong connections to the ME world. He was helping Joss produce the Buffy Animated, which sadly we never saw coming true. And he was also involved in some canon-ish comic books. His son Sam Loeb, who passed away a few weeks ago, wrote a short comic book story in the Tales of the Vampires mini series.

There's been tons of Buffy-ish episodes in Smallville, since Drew Z. Greenberg joined the show (which I believe was the same year that Jeph got more involved). But they always lack something. I still feel that our talented writers tend to be forced to dumb down their scrips, or make them more shallow.

I've posted this same comment before, about how DeKnight, seemed to have become the producers go to writer, whenever they had an idea and wanted it turned into an episode. There was this episode in the 4th season, the one with the kid with accelerated growth, it doesn't sounded like a DeKnight episode, but he was credited for it. It sounded like the producers had they idea, and then called Steven, and asked him to have a script ready in the next 2 hours. And that was the script that they shot.

I actually found 4th season, better than 3rd. I don't know 3rd season annoyed me a lot. Or maybe it's just my annoyance with 3rd seasons. Angel's 3rd season is my least favorite season of the all series, and it's my least favorite season from all ME shows. I'm not a huge fan of Buffy Season 3 either. Maybe I got a better impression from Smallville's 4th season, due to Lois Lane, who I didn't expect much, but she turned out like something really fresh for this show.

Numfar PTB | August 18, 20:20 CET

I don't think that the casting so far does count as stunt casting, unless JM is playing a vampire and the other big news is playing a bolshy space princess.

Or are they both appearing as 'themselves'? Lex wanders into the Talon one evening, and 'OMG?!?! Is that... are you JAMES MARSTERS?!?!?! Wow, I always loved Spike. Hey, my friends and I are having this party? Don't feel obligated or anything...'

Followed by the scene where Chloe gets to do a big interview with James and saves the school paper from the big bad budget cuts.

All this Smallville bashing is hilarious, considering how close it is to the Buffyverse. I've watched some excellent SV episodes and some not so brilliant ones - just like Buffy.

And I hate to remind people, but Buffy had wacky Halloween episodes too, with shoutouts to other genre films.

I think it's funny. And if SDK is writing it, I'll be watching it. Go them :)

[ edited by vanity on 2005-08-18 18:47 ]

vanity | August 18, 20:46 CET

The thing that I noticed for a couple of years is that The WB has a policy of getting recogniseable names as guest stars as it's just about the only way it can guarantee the show getting a mention in the mainstream press. I feel sorry for the show's creators and cast as I have no doubt they are genuinely trying to do their best but it doesnt get noticed. There doesn't seem be any general interest in the show like there was for Buffy or Angel.

Simon | August 18, 21:51 CET

I concur with that Simon, in fact, I was at the one "Charmed" site earlier in the week and they mentioned that the budget for the show had been cut this year...since the network wanted to book "big name" guest stars, several of the show's regulars would either not appear at all or would appear in a limited number of episodes. That doesn't work for me, the reason I watch any show is that I enjoy specific characters, I could care less if they do a guest shot with some "star". In the case of "Charmed", the only guest star that added anything for me was Charisma, and they killed her character for no apparent reason.

Calledon | August 18, 22:16 CET

On the contrary I see more write ups in the press and mags for Smallville than I ever did for Btvs and especially Ats. Those little....make that huge....those huge gems never got the press they deserved. In the UK Smallville in comparison is well represented. I think it's the Superman connection that makes it more accessible and acceptable to the press to mention. I mean who doesn't like Superman. ;0)

As to stunt casting. Again I have to beg to differ. JM and CF are recurring characters (apparently CF will be recurring - Yay!), so I don't see that as stunt casting at all. They are excellent actors who have found work, good luck to them.

A case for stunt casting could be made in connection to Tom Wopat, especially with the car with the broken door. But what with the DOH movie coming out it isn't suprising to me either.

lynnie | August 18, 22:17 CET

I don't like Superman. There. I said it. The whole Jor-El/Krypton/Man of Steel/Lois Lane deal kinda bores me. I recognize that it's not the source material, but what is done with the source material that matters. Still and all, Smallville will always start at a disadvantage for me because I just don't care that much for the characters.

As to the show's actual merits, I'm agnostic since I've never seen it. And, since I've read few to none comments here claiming that it is as anywhere near as good as BtVS, I don't feel like I'm particularly missing out. But, hey!, I have no doubt that James Marsters will bring some good stuff on board.

SoddingNancyTribe | August 18, 22:34 CET

On the contrary, I always used to be surprised at how much coverage SV got in comparison to great shows like Buffy, until I started watching SV. I realised then that not only is it comparable in quality sometimes, it is slightly more accesible to the mainstream due to everyone having a vague clue who Superman is.

Whatever one thinks of the WB, this sounds like 'good' casting, not 'stunt' casting.

vanity | August 18, 22:34 CET

SNT LOL! :0) I was only kidding with the "who doesn't like Superman" question. But thanks for the answer anyway. I mean naturally nothing is going to be universally liked, fair enough I say.

What I meant, and what vanity has since said, is that because of it's history the Superman genre is more accessible to the mainstream than any other type of genre show, be they be about vampires, withces, zombie gameshow hosts.

lynnie | August 18, 23:06 CET

For starters, this is my personal opinion. I do respect what you all are saying, I just see this differentely.

I wouldn't call myself a Superman fan. I'm a huge DC Comics characters fan, that's for sure. That what made me watch Smallville at the first place, at possibly the main reason why I still stick with it.

I don't think it ever reached the same level of quality (writing, production, acting, character development, storywise) as ME shows. Even when a ME show wasn't so good, there were still good reasons to appreciate the show. They do touch upon similar themes though, the whole Hero's Journey package. Maybe it's just me, sometimes SV characters end up sounding a little bit stupid. And I am annoyed by the turns Lana' and Jonathan's character took in these fours season. I wouldn't call what they had character development, it just seemed like random turns. Jensen Eckels cahracter in 4th season is a great example, about these random turns, instead of character development. But as I've said, maybe is development, is just how I read it that might be different from some of you.

A lot of time Smallville episodes feel like updated versions of stories we'd seen in 50's or early 60's comics, which is not really a compliment. If you're also a comic book fan, you know what I'm talking about. They were a lot of times silly or very "Archie-ish", with moral of the day.

I don't know, maybe this will take us back to that whole discussion we had in a thread about mindless entertainment and entertainment that make go back a think. For me Smallville tend to be the first type, while all 3 ME shows are the latter, even when that's not obvious.

While I was writing this, I was wondering, what if they hired Marti Noxon on Smallville. Would that mean that Clark would finally have sex? Or maybe, it would mean that everyone, but Clark, would have sex.

Numfar PTB | August 18, 23:44 CET

Well TW is already topless, so I'd worry if I was him if she did. ;0)

lynnie | August 18, 23:57 CET

Glad to see I'm not the only one who still thinks Brooke Nevin = ANIMORPHS TELEVISION SHOW THAT WAS A RIP OFF OF THE BOOKS EVIL EVIL WAUUUUGH.

I think she's awful. But then, I don't watch Smallville anyway. And now I never will.

Daromaius | August 19, 03:16 CET

Daromaius, She is going to be on one episode...

newcj | August 19, 08:35 CET

Ok...

Willowy | August 19, 08:42 CET