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August 27 2005

(SPOILER) Canadian National Comic Book Expo: Smallville's James Marsters. James talks about his character in the upcoming season of Smallville. Minor Smallville spoilers.

It's hard to find an article with James when he isn't being humble and sincere.
Marsters and Rosenbaum acting together! Spike/Lex shippers are going to have apoplectic fits, me thinks. What a great team. Lex is the one reason I like to watch Smallville (on DVD, mind you), but this season I have one more.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-08-27 23:08 ]
I put 1 pic up of James over at Flicker will put more up later.
He doesn't sound like he wants to return to the Spike role...
He's said half a dozen times he'd return to Spike and recently. This isn't the first time he's commented on how he wasn't sure how he fitted in on Buffy, or something to that effect.
Ouch. I dunno, I didn't really feel he was talking positively about his time on Buffy. I just hope he doesn't suddenly start trying to distance himself away from the role of Spike now that he has a new character.
He sounds pretty negative about his entire experience on the show, as opposed to just what Spike's role on the show was.

Christopher beat me to it.

[ edited by VJP666 on 2005-08-28 00:03 ]
I think it would sound less negative if it hadn't been put in print. I reckon he said it in a jokey way.
There's a good side and a bad side to everything. In comparing Spike's role to Fine's, it came out as negative since Fine's character had something Spike's didn't have. Doesn't mean that James didn't like Spike. He's said a million times over how much he loved playing Spike and he'd do it again in a heartbeat (granted he wasn't too old *rolling my eyes*).

I like how he said 'you can go ahead and have a crush and Tom Welling'....just made me chuckle. Like, thanks for your permission O Great James. Hehehe.

Oh, and MsSerenity, is there a Marsters article out there that isn't humble and sincere? Does it even exist? I mean excluding when he's joking around, for he does that often...
I rather think he, like most actors I guess, was looking for what was positive, interesting, fun, and challenging in his new role. He's hardly going to say, "well, this Brainiac dude is all right, but Spike, ah, there was a character!" I didn't take as overly-negative. I'm in a charitable mood today, obviously.
I always enjoy listening to or reading Mr. Marsters' comments. Besides coming across as sincere and humorous, he actually has things to say instead of relying on the oft used cliche-type remarks. I have never got the impression that he is less than appreciative of his Spike role. And admitting that there are aspects of the job that made it at times more or less enjoyable is refreshingly honest.
I see this more as finding the positives in his new role rather than disparaging his previous one. He is simply achieving this by making certain comparisons.
Thanks for the link SpikeBad.

He's just started filming his new role and seems to be having a great time doing it. Just cos he's happy about Prof. Fine doesn't mean he hates Spike and everything to do with it at all. He's just comparing the two experiences.

He has stated many, many times that Spike is one of the, if not the, best written characters he's played so far. He loves playing Spike and has already said he'd do it again.

Apples and oranges is all. Neither is better or worse than the other, just different.

Oh, and I don't think he was giving us permission to like TW. I think he was saying crush on his looks by all means, but there's a brain in there too, that there is more to TW than just his looks. JM gets a similar treatment by some people, I've actually seen people write about him and telling him to "shut up and look pretty". He's not alone DB gets it to, as does TW. That's pretty insulting.
Spike/Lex shippers are going to have apoplectic fits, me thinks.

No offense to anyone, but if I never hear another word about Spike/Lex shipping I will be okay with it :)
I thought his comments sounded honest and well-considered. Most of his time in the 'verse Spike didn't have clear objectives, and Adam, Glory, and the First, at least, were made more impressive through their easy submission of Spike. I don't thimk that diminishes the character at all, though.
Spike's motivation was very complex and changed over time. I like that, and I thought Marsters' performance was very consistant. I never wondered about his motivations.

No offense to anyone, but if I never hear another word about Spike/Lex shipping I will be okay with it :)

My apologies, Zeitgeist. I don't ship them myself but that's just the first thing I thought of when I read about them working together. Someone sent me a fanfic once that I never read. It just amuses me greatly the pairings people come up with.

I'll try never to utter a word of it again. ;)

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-08-28 02:54 ]
I was reading that article with a big smirk on on my face because I had the feeling James was putting a positive spin on playing a one-dimensional character. But, obviously, I could be wrong since we haven't seen this character yet.

He had ojectives when he was playing Spike. Stop Angelus, get Dru to love him, kill Buffy, help Buffy, have sex with Buffy, connect with Buffy.

But he might be thinking about ANGEL S5, where his main objective was to be a pain in Angel's butt. Not as much to play there.

What? No Lexiac slash?

[ edited by batmarlowe on 2005-08-28 03:45 ]

I know he didn't mean it like that when he talked about Tom Welling. I was only kidding. It sounded like that as all, and it made the remark amusing to me. I understand what he meant. And I do love Tom Welling and am looking foward to seeing both TW and JM together on screen. Hello cheekbone central!
Maybe it does seem more negative when put in print, but do you really have to 'diss' your former character(that most of those women are fans of) to boost your current character? I don't think it was necessary to pull Spike into that particular discussion unless someone asked for a compare/contrast. I mean, just the phrases "The thing I love about this role" and "The problem with Spike" are just...I don't know, unnecessary?

I do love him, however, simply for the line: He's more intelligent than you might think. We don't want to believe that really beautiful people have intelligence, but sometimes, they do. Poor Tom Welling...if even 'internet-dumb' James knows your rep...
Well in all honesty, while I love James, he can be more than a bit inconsistent in what he says in interviews. He's gone back and forth on several aspects on his role on Joss' shows. I don't really get all that bent out shape about what he says since a few months from now he could well sound very different again. Actors are always praising what they're doing NOW more than what they've done in the past anyway, and that's understandable on a level.

They rarely get how it doesn't usually really please fans though. I remember Eliza trying to praise Tru as a character over Faith in a way that she didn't mean anything by, but still pissed more than a few people off.

As for James' claims of 'purpose' for characters....I don't know. Villains on Adam West's Batman had clear purposes but that still didn't make them great roles. And as for Spike:

S2: Kill the Slayer. Cure Dru. Get out of wheelchair and get Dru back.
S3 (the one ep) Get Dru back thru other means.
S4 Find life without Dru. Find Gem and Kill Slayer. Get chip out.
S5. Get chip out and kill Slayer. Love Slayer!
S6 Get Slayer to admit love back! Get soul back!
S7 (Okay he's got me there.) Slayer but don't *love* Slayer.....
AtS S5 Become tangible! Go to Buffy!, hero? Yes! Be Hero!!

Never had any problem seeing Spike's goals.
I'll try never to utter a word of it again. ;)

Hehe, mostly going for the humor there, shocking I know- appreciate it, however :)

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-08-28 05:38 ]
S2: Kill the Slayer. Cure Dru. Get out of wheelchair and get Dru back.
S3 (the one ep) Get Dru back thru other means.
S4 Find life without Dru. Find Gem and Kill Slayer. Get chip out.
S5. Get chip out and kill Slayer. Love Slayer!
S6 Get Slayer to admit love back! Get soul back!
S7 (Okay he's got me there.) Slayer but don't *love* Slayer.....
AtS S5 Become tangible! Go to Buffy!, hero? Yes! Be Hero!!

That's perfect. Heehee.
I think it's hilarous that fans can get so hung up on a single phrase that even their favourite actor says and turn it into something negative, no matter how lightly the comment is made. Just seems that certian people will be offended no matter what you say. Makes my glad I'm not famous, because I'd get in no end of trouble.

EdDantes...that objectives bit is hilarious. What I think James meant though, was that Spikes objectives changed so often that it was hard to keep the character up without going way off base. Could be wrong though. Still very funny.

[ edited by Pmacca01 on 2005-08-28 06:46 ]
I find it hilarous, Pmacca01, that you're not famous and still have managed to offend me.

I'm terribly sorry about that. It was not meant as an insult by any means. Just an observation that I find funny. People are allowed to think what they want, it's just something that I feel sorry for the actual makers of such comments, is all.

[ edited by Pmacca01 on 2005-08-28 07:07 ]
You know what? I'm sorry, that was bitter of me. I apologize. You're entitled to your opinion and vice versa. Forgive me.
I do think it's a mistake to read too much into things said in interviews, especially those that you read in print, because unless you are actually hearing the unadulterated words coming out of the person in question's own mouth then it is far too easy to take something out of context or misunderstand the meaning behind what has been said.

Quite honestly i've heard James praising the character of Spike far too many times in the past to believe that he has any real issue with the character now, especially given the fact he is so keen to reprise the role. It just doesn't add up to me.

I would say that it was more a case that his current Smallville character has been given a set character arc which he is able to use to focus upon, whereas Spike was a lot more fluid and changeable in his motivations. I don't think any of us can argue that Spike was the character that changed his directions and loyalties more than anyone on either Buffy or Angel. With that in mind i can understand how James would consider this new role much easier to work with, as he knows exactly what the character is destined to become.
I read his comments as being about the acting process . He loves Spike and says so repeatedly, but he also says that there were times when Joss came to him and said " we have absolutely no idea what to do with you this season", then there was the fact that even James wasn't told that he was going to get a soul so he made different acting choices at the end of season 6 based on the script alone. He has frequently said that had he known his character's history or his final destination he would have played Spike a little less soulful for longer . Now frankly I'm glad that it worked out as it did because James' portrayal of Spike was amazing , and whilst I'm sure I'll enjoy Smallville, I'm equally sure that I'll never fall for another character in the way I fell for Spike.

But as an actor it must be so much easier to get a handle on your character if all the cards are on the table from the outset .

I'm glad that James is enjoying his new role and I love the way he gives such kudos to his fellow cast members, just as he always did on Buffy .
Hello from Toronto!

Two things. First of all, James said at the same Q&A that he would love to play Spike again.

Second, by not having an objective he was referring to being provided with something specific to do in a scene in the script. The other characters were given a "verb" - something very specific to do and a reason to be there. Often,for example, Spike would go over to Buffy's and James wasn't really given a reason to be there specifically so he would make something up in his head like "I'm here to kill Xander" so that he would enter the scene with a sense of purpose.

It has to do with the acting process. Don't read too much into it. He loves Spike and thinks Tim Minear could do a good job with a Spike movie.
Cheers for clearing that up, Killinj. What you posted was pretty much what i assumed anyway but it's always nicer to get the facts from somebody who can provide all the information, within the right context, rather than edited portions to suit the purpose of a particular article.
killinj, you've taken your acting Love how the term "verbs" was drilled into my head at school. Hehehehe.

Thanks for clearing it up! :)
But he might be thinking about ANGEL S5, where his main objective was to be a pain in Angel's butt. Not as much to play there.

I hear you Batmartlowe.

What goes in on in ones mind preceeding an event is a powerful tool. Athletes use visualization to win, a lot of us who follows series such as BTVS and ATS use these series themselves for a form of creative visualization. What I think preceeds the flavor and informs the quality of what I do. I have always been able to suspect the intention of a writer when I read something from how it is making me feel. Pyshic imprint perhaps but that's how the quantum physics of the thing works. So can you imagine how important an actor would consider intention?

I agree with Batsmarlowe maybe it was about ATS5.

Spike in BTVS worked brilliantly for me. Even if James had to make intentions up in his mind he was still placed as an important vibration in an evolving mytholgy--he was a character relying almost exclusively on free will choice. He was inserted into the series as a loose cannon and so fired the whole with that much needed discussion. What does one do when one has no destiny? What happens when I make free will choices along the way and fire at will? Emphasis on 'will'.

I loved what BTVS did with the character...using free will as the counterpoint to Buffy feeling confined by 'destiny'. Brilliant. Accidently brilliant that it might not have been the original intention to add this element in such a way, but once in; it fired the audience and the imagination and included being an 'American immgrant' into the discussion. Most of our ancestors (even if you count Atlantis and their emmigration came to America to excercise free will). Spike had amazing purpose and James played it brilliantly. He 'hooked' into the bigger picture and even if he had to make it up--he had the ongoing subtext of his purpose in the mytholgoy to rely on.

So...I wonder if James is remembering his most recent stint on ATS5?

Now, I maintain, that he could have had purpose on ATS5; but for some reason he was written has having none. None that I could see outside being a pain in the patoot. And I think it was deliberate. Consider his entry into the series as being brought back as a ghost. The subtext of that in the bigger picture is to be seen as insubstantial, not to be considered outside the pesky fly thing. A characters entry into a storyline is a powerful tool to set up metaphor and here Spike is recreated as being 'not there'. This sets up an emotional resonance of how we will continue to view him as the season progresses. But instead of discussing what it means to be insubstanial in a world that thrives on product and actualization--after the first few eps...he becomes, for me, really irritating, as a buzzing fly would be.

Fred has concerns for him and indeed this interchange, for me has the most resonance for Spike throughout all eps. But outside that--he hangs around making crude noises and fart sounds. And when he is brought back in a way that is never explained in the physics of the thing, he continues this behavior without a pause for reflection--he jumps on Harmony, ignores her request to stop the sex thing, punches her across the room and then leaves without looking back without explanation for character motivation in the text and this from a soul who had learned a life altering lesson. Sorry, when some events change one, one is changed forever and so very little of what he has learned about himself shows up in in his eyes or his voice or in his acting because there is no intention for the character in the script. Rewatch the eps. His eyes are flat, his voice is flat and I know, I just know he is doing that actor thing of when you don't know what to play: play nothing.

Sorry, James--I love you and will absolutley fall down and watch anything you do...but his Spike in ATS5 for me, seldom worked. He was constantly struggling and under reaching or over reaching in his acting without emotional foundation because the text gave him nothing. I believe that the writers 'inserted' him just to keep the WB happy and so deliberately kept him two dimensional so as not to alarm long standing ATS fans with the insertion of this challenging problematic character.

Now, if the writers wanted to say something about him coming back regressed or as the preannuanl adolescent...they should have set up a believable motivation that was consistant with the characters history. Remember, we had just seen him perform a completely selfless act of antonement with the belief that Buffy didn't love him. He did it anyway for himself, for the world, for redemption...that kind of act indicates a change in one's character that is irrevocable. Can anyone imagine Wesley regressing? To become the bumbling insecure man he was before his life experiance in California? Impossible for me imagine. And I never bought the jeolous brother angle, because Spike way back had always maintained and consistantly acted like he didn't give a hot hoot about material possessions. Fool for Love indicated that he was standing outside Angels influence and opinions at a very young age and what was it Spike said way back when about living out of his back pocket and loving it that way?

Now, they could have established a true competativeness based on established character strengths--but Spike seemed so 'not there' I never bought that he was a contender to the throne. 'Destiny' seemed to be the setup to knock Spike down for the reaminder of the sereies. After 'Destiny' every ep seemed to be about some new way to beat up on Spike or derail Spike or belittle Spike. I found myself cringing whenever he came on screen, cause it was like oh man, what new way is he going to be punched now? It's like his purpose was it be the fool or the punching bag or the kick in the kiester and how much meat is there to eat on that bone after the character grew as it did in BTVS? I mean, the guy gets his hands chopped off, trounced by a puppet, acts like a mindless idiot, pummeled by a HellGod (again), attacts Harmony and insults her regualarly, is dragged like Angel's shadow showpony from ep to ep and by the time Angel asks/tells him his task at the end, I was actaully thinking, oh man, don't give him anything too hard, he might mess it up. Yes, I actually thought that.

And so this lack of purpose or strange purpose gave James very little intention to play, contradictary motivations and so contributed to (in my opinion) an unfocused performance in ATS5. I think James was blank because Spike was a blank in ATS5 and as time goes by, I wonder if we may hear him say a little something about it. If course he may not have been talking about ATS--but this most recent experiance might be part of how he views his experiance as a whole. He seems an honest, wonderful person and he seems kind enough to tell his truth. I love and appreciate hearing him speak his mind because this is a sign of respect for my ability to cull the many variables that make up a complex world and so reach a better understanding of the whole.

The truth doesn't have to make anybody burst into flames or go deep sea diving to escape the world...the truth is good.

James and Daved have both admitted to saying in interviews that they wished that there had been something more substantial in the storyline, in the conflict. (I'm referring to last years Halloween party in England) Actors are hooked into their material and they know when they have something to work with and when they don't. It is their art.

The writers of ATS5 had their reasons and from their point of view--perhaps very valid ones, now maybe in ATS6 we would have seen Spike emerge with a storyline once he had been accepted in his proper secondary role--it was David's show afterall and so the strategy could have worked in the long. But in the short what it is, is right there on the tube. I know thousands will disagree with me but I also know that thousands will agree with me and what does that mean in the end? That the events of the world move through our senses and we retain what resonates and has some value to teach us something in the moment and then we sit down and compare notes.

Please consider that these are my opinions based on how ATS5 made me feel--not my finger on a nuclear warhead and whew-- just ran out of breath there and maybe used up my space for the month...thanks for listening...

as always,
BforBeth, I think I remember reading that the writers were still trying to figure out Spike's place on Angel. Personally, I'm glad his arc didn't take over the last season of that show. He worked really well as an antagonist for Angel, and brought out some meaty issues for A, and that was awesome to see.

I don't know about James playing it flat. I have a hard time believing that. Killinj just said that James said that if the writers don't tell him his character's motivation, he has to make it up himself. I doubt that he wasn't doing that on Angel. That kind of thing can get lost sometimes in the process though. It doesn't always come across on screen. I wasn't disatisfied with Spike on Angel because my focus wasn't on him, it was on Angel and Wesley. To me, aside from the dynamite Angel/Spike scenes, Spike was just there until he became more part of the MoG.

As for Spike punching Harmony across the room in "Destiny", you do remember that she was possessed and trying to kill him, right?
I disagree with James' comments. I think Spike was a very ambiguous character, but I didn't feel the character's arc was at all unfocused.

Personally one of the only things I didn't like about the last couple of seasons of Buffy was how focused it became on Spike, and other characters like Xander or Anya often had very little to do and ended up being in the background all the time.

I haven't seen all of Angel season five yet, I just watched Smile Time, and so far I'm glad they haven't used Spike too much on Angel. I was dreading that he was going to come in and the emphasis would be on Angel and Spike, with Wes, Gunn and Fred being relegated to exposition. Thankfully that hasn't happened. I do think Spike is a great addition and they should be all means use the character, but not at the expense of others, as it was on Buffy.

I think that Joss is very specific with his ideas and I think that because everything is planned to some degree it gives the actors the information and inspiration they need to really let go and focus on the acting. Perhaps James was referring to an episode like Grave where they didn't tell him what was going to happen at the very end? But I think that also worked well because the first time you see it, you think Spike is talking about getting his chip removed, but when you look at it again, the writing is very ambiguous and could refer to the chip or the soul. James' performance makes it seem like its the chip he wants to get rid of, but on reflection it could also apply to the soul.
JM didn't come close to saying that Fine is a better character than Spike; he didn't say that SV is a better show, has better writing or is more brilliantly conceived. He merely said that if Fine ends up in Africa, he'll probably know why.
Mmm.. Spex..

LOL, Bad Kitty. Shh, Zeitgeist is in the room. ;)
I disagree with James' comments. I think Spike was a very ambiguous character, but I didn't feel the character's arc was at all unfocused.

I'm not sure what your disagreeing with him about, James didn't say he thought his character's arc was unfocused.

I agree with Batsmarlowe maybe it was about ATS5.

I was there, he was talking about BtVS. You're reading too much into it. You're thinking in broad terms and he was speaking about smaller specific moments, such as his reason for walking into a room or what he should be doing once he's there. See my previous post.
killinj Hope you're having a good time at the Con. :0)

I'm with you on this one. From what I've read he means that he didn't get direction in the script as to what Spike's motivation was in any given scene. For example Giles would in the script be told to have a cup of tea etc, while Spike was just there and it wasn't explained in the script why or what he was to do while there. On the contrary to a flat performance I think that this situation makes an actor work harder.

Given that he mention Giles specifically makes me believe he was talking about Btvs and not Ats. I had no problem with Spike on S5, apart from a few things that were daft. The Harmony desk sex was stupid imo, DF thought so, as do many other people, but JW wanted it in there. I hated it as it came over as terrible, just horrible. But what JW wants, JW gets.

As to the rest of the season I got Spike a lot. He didn't in my eyes regress so much as act accordingly around different people. On Btvs he was around a woman he loved and people he'd been in close quarters with for years. On Ats he was surrounded by strangers, Harmony and someone whom he claims to hate, Angel. I loved him on the show and agree that S6 would probably have featured a stronger storyline between him and Angel.

I don't think he was flat at all. Just Rewards, Hellbound, Destiny, Soul Purpose, Damage, AHITW, Shells, NFA all had excellent scenes. One thing you can say about JM is that he is not a lazy actor. No way. Imo. :0)
The Harmony desk sex was stupid imo, DF thought so, as do many other people, but JW wanted it in there. I hated it as it came over as terrible, just horrible. But what JW wants, JW gets.

That was the only scene of the combined 12 1/2 seasons of his 3 shows where I really disagreed with Joss' choice in character direction. With everything he had been through, with as far as he had come in the past few years, it's impossible for me to justify that regression for Spike.
How was that regression? It was just sex. He just became corporeal and he's a man and had intense urges. A beautiful woman whom he'd had carnal encounters with was right there. I don't see it as regressing, and (although I know you didn't bring this up, RS) I didn't see it being about Buffy either.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-08-29 02:20 ]
ESG It wasn't about Buffy and I didn't say it was. And it's not necessarily regression either. But it was imo gross. DF has even said that he wasn't happy about it being there at all, but also that the directing of that scene was bad as it looked like Spike was attacking her when he wasn't. It was a bad scene that I don't think was needed. Let's face it, he hadn't had sex since Entropy, about a year and a half ago, why would he suddenly need it right away. And why Harmony? Angel was right there. ;0)
I didn't say you said it was, lynnie. Sorry, I was addressing Rogue Slayer.

DF has even said that he wasn't happy about it being there at all, but also that the directing of that scene was bad as it looked like Spike was attacking her when he wasn't. It was a bad scene that I don't think was needed.

I never thought it looked like Spike was attacking her, so that impression was lost on me. It always looked like good ol' horny fun, until Harmony's mascara started running.

I'm not dismissing the opinion that it was a poor decision, because I can kind of understand that. It's the argument that Spike was regressing, and arguments I've read elsewhere about how he was disrespecting his love for Buffy. lynnie, you're criticizing the direction, and that's completely different.

Entropy, about a year and a half ago, why would he suddenly need it right away.

Because he's a guy?

why would he suddenly need it right away. And why Harmony? Angel was right there.

Hey, yeah. That doesn't make sense at all! It should have been Angel.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-08-29 03:17 ]
Huh. Didn't know that scene was so despised. I always thought it was funny, and a bit sexy...the only part that grossed me out was when Harmony flipped out with her bloody eyes. Ew. I liked horny Spike!
Mmm.. Spex..

/me runs away!
How was that regression? It was just sex. He just became corporeal and he's a man and had intense urges. A beautiful woman whom he'd had carnal encounters with was right there. I don't see it as regressing, and (although I know you didn't bring this up, RS) I didn't see it being about Buffy either.

Well, I see it as regression because Spike had been used for sex for quite a while by someone who didn't really like him, and I think he wasn't that happy about it. So it's just odd to see him turn around and do that to someone else, especially since he had a soul now. And I do feel it was a bit about Buffy in the sense that immediately after the shag(or near shag, cuz his pants were never undone...)he wanted to go off to Buffy. I think saying "he's a guy" is a bit offensive to guys. I don't think this is standard behavior for a guy. If, for instance, my husband were in the same situation, and before he decided to come find me, he screwed an ex...yeah, I'd be pissed and feel it was wrong. If Spike supposedly had this great love for Buffy, he could have probably waited. Or just diddled his willy.

And I don't feel offended *just* because I'm a 'Spuffy'(I actually don't care much for Buffy, but Spike seemed to like her...), but more because this is rather out of character for Spike. It took him getting dumped by his love to make him turn to another gal for comfort(and that was soulless), and that was a huge thing for him and he regretted it. But now we're to believe that because he's happy and corporeal that it's enough to make him want to shag a woman he can't stand? I just don't see the logic in it. It just seemed very out of character for Spike, to me. I could understand it more if he were soulless, but with a soul...

And it's not because I hate Harmony. I actually felt bad for Harmony most of the season. I think Spike could have been nicer to her. Particularly because of how he had been treated by the Scoobies his entire chipped existence.

I dunno, my hubby thinks the Sparmony sex was Joss' attempt to try to push people past the idea of Spuffy that would never be. I'd have much rather Spike just started falling for some other gal than to have him jump Harmony while planning his trip to Buffy....
And come on, Angel was able to wait quite a while before jumping into bed with Darla. Can't say the same for Buffy though...

Eh, everyone has their own opinion. I didn't actually find it that gross-I've been far more squicked by Connor/Cordy stuff than Sparmony, though I did find it poorly shot since he didn't actually look like his pants were down. But my main complaint is I feel really strongly went against character. However, despite myself, I can't help but giggle when Spike says, "Harm, that's a very pretty skirt you're wearing." And then the look that would turn any girl on...*sigh*
Ah it's no big deal, really. He never even unbuttonned his pants remember? So he was obviously being faithful to Buffy, only rubbing his jeans up against Harm's dress. Innocent little 'dry-hump'. Very chaste actually.

And, come to think of it, quite unfulfilling I imagine....personally I'd have diddled my willie....;-)
because he's happy and corporeal that it's enough to make him want to shag a woman he can't stand?

Well, yeah, that's exactly how I saw it. I completely agree with esg on this one. [ETA: well, until she stopped agreeing with me. See below. :)] And, with all due respect, while it may not be "standard behavior" for a regular guy, we are talking about a fairly-recently ensouled decorporialized-then-recorporialized vampire who has been a bit of a naughty boy in the past. Not sure Ed has ever been in that precise situation. My broader point is this: we've all done things we regret, and those of us with a conscience try to change so that we don't keep doing those things. Even on the path to redemption, however, there'll be bumps. We lapse back into former bad habits, realize it, try to integrate those slips into our new path, try to continue onward. In Spike's case, I saw it as his sublimated passion + new heightened sensation from being flesh again. And then he sees his ex-fling, and biology takes over. I didn't think it was out of character at all.

As for Buffy, well I completely disagree with those who think the episode with Parker - if that's who you're referring to, - meant anything. It was rebound sex, pure and simple. Many of us have done that too. Doesn't mean we didn't love our former paramour. Doesn't mean anything, in fact, other than that we're grieving over the loss of the relationship, and look for solace in something or someone else. And she was still only, what, eighteen? I know that she had the big romantic daydreams going on, but I think we should see those as being about Angel - with Parker thrown in as a happenstance substitute.

I do agree the Spike/Harmony scene wasn't shot all that well, and probably could have been omitted entirely. But it was funny and sexy . . . at least, I thought so too.
You know what, Rogue Slayer? I think I agree with your argument. I also agree with the idea that Joss was trying to push people past the idea of Spuffy. The Sparmony sex still doesn't really bother me though.

Even though I'm not a huge Spike or Spuffy fan, I love the Spuffy of season 7, and a part of me really wants them to reconnect after all that's happened. But a part of me (the Bangel shipper in me) also wants Buffy and Angel to someday be together. And I also want Spike and Angel to finally admit their feeling for each other... Oh, man, I'm so confused!
Well, ESG, if the world could just all agree on Spangel, there would be no more Spuffy vs Bangel problems!. Or maybe even just get the ever popular *Spuffangel going...I could go with that!

*only popular in my mind...

SNT, I don't for a second think the Parker sex meant anything either, nor Darla really. I was just talking about unnecessary and rather 'fresh from the ex' sex, which I think is what Harmony was...

personally I'd have diddled my willie

Good answer, and really the only answer unless that's all you wanna be doing from now on.... :~P
Actually, I agree with SNT and Rogue Slayer. Is that allowed? Or even possible? So confused! ;)

Rogue Slayer, if everyone loved the Spangel the world would be a better place, full of shiny, happy people and frolicking unicorns and floppy hoppy bunnies.

When I watch Ats season 5 I can never contain my glee that Spangel is canon. :D
I just think everyone should always agree with Rogue Slayer. The world would be a better place. ;)

And if anyone else says "diddle my willie", I'm going to have to go to the hospital because I won't be able to stop snickering. They'll have to give me some pretty heavy drugs. Priceless.

SNT and esg, looks like you guys and I fundamentally agree on that scene: funny horny fun (except for freaky Harm. She actually gave me a start, frightened me a little bit when she got all blood-eyed. First time for everything...). Didn't Spike have his leather coat still on? How could ya'll tell he didn't have his pants down?

And thanks for the chuckle, guys. I'm feeling pretty freaked about that hurricane. See the flickr.

Also? Kind of fun to see the old gang bantering again. *room hug* (Can I do that here? Ok, maybe once?)
Rogue Slayer--Spangel and Spuffangel--NOT only popular in your mind. Popular in other minds as well!

ESG--When Spangel became canon, I jumped for joy as well. That was as close to shipping as I could come, and I was slightly worried that I was some sort of deviant. Glad I'm not alone in my Spangel shippage! ;)

As for Sparmony. I didn't think it was shot well, but I too love horny Spike. Primarily because I like imagining myself on the other end of it. Um, him. Uh, it. Ummm...I'll be in my bunk!

[ edited by Tiny Tabby on 2005-08-29 07:56 ]
I'm really surprised that the whole Spike/Harmony sex (or not) scene is the centre of such a debate. I don't remember giving much thought to it at the time.

I'm one of the biggest Spike fans you can hope to meet but i'll be the first to admit that he is far from being the poster child for the perfect guy. Even with a soul he still is who he is and, outside of the influence of Buffy, is bound to slip back into old habits.

It was a heat of the moment kind of deal, in my opinion. Maybe not the best decision Spike could have made but given the way the guy general acts first and thinks a few days later i don't see it being too unusual that he should see Harmony as a little harmless Ex-Sex.
I didn't really think much of that particular scene either, at the time. Spike had just been made corporeal again, so it made sense to me that he would want to have sex with Harmony, because she was available and he knew she would be willing to.

I did feel a little sympathy for Harmony, though. Not the fact that Spike was using her, which he was, but that she wanted him to. If she didn't want to have sex with him, she could have stopped him, but she didn't. I'm not sure why. It could be her being completely naive again, like Buffy season five, and that she didn't realise how she was only being used, or she was aware of it and didn't mind. If it was the first option, I feel a little bad that she didn't even have the sense to realise that she was being used.

It wasn't entirely out of character for Spike, but you'd think maybe he would be a little slower to move on from Buffy. Although I suppose by Chosen he realised she didn't love him really, so perhaps by this point it was okay.

As to who should have Buffy, I don't think that question will ever be answered. There have been so many different couples and fans of each on Buffy and Angel- Bangel, Spuffy, Biley, Spangel, Xanya, Xandelia, Tillow, Wennedy, Woz, Frunn, Fresley, even Concord (I may have made up a few of those names). And how many of them have ended happily? Very few.

At the end of Buffy the only romantic relationship that was left was Willow and Kennedy. Buffy had decided that she wasn't ready to be in a relationship just yet. Xander lost Cordelia, have several unsuccessful relationships with demons over the years, and after reuniting with Anya, lost her too. Giles had Olivia leave him, Jenny was murdered and Joyce died. Willow chose Tara over Oz, and then Tara was murdered.

Ultimately, despite all the bickering between Bangel and Spuffy fans, Buffy didn't end up with either of them. She could in the future, who knows, but that isn't really the important part. It's the evolution and growth of these characters together, and personally almost all of the relationships I've seen on the shows have been real and believable, so I'm happy to see the characters happy, regardless of who it is with, because it usually doesn't last long.
As to who should have Buffy, I don't think that question will ever be answered.

No, I don't believe it will ever be answered either. But there's a little part of me that wants it to be. That's the "what I want" part of me, and not the "what I need" part of me. Because when you actually put the couple together and give them a happy ending (and in some cases, retcon your entire show to do it *cough*Roswell*cough*) I end up being bored or uncaring about the couple. If you keep them apart it only makes me want them even more, and the characters are more likely to be living on in my imagination.

[ edited by electricspacegirl on 2005-08-29 19:13 ]
I want to thank Whedonesque as it was this site that alerted me to the fact that Tim Minear had talked to Joss (or vice versa) about the Spike movie. James didn't know that and I got to tell him at the Q & A!

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