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September 23 2005

Amy Acker - Joss spoke to me about resurrecting Illyria. Details from E! Online's Kristin about the Buffyverse tv movie and Amy's guest stint on Alias (scroll right down to the bottom of the page if you don't want to be spoiled for that show).

"Tim Minear was gonna write and direct the Spike movie, the Spike-Illyria movie"

Spike - Illyria - This day just gets better and better. First "Goner", now this. Even better is that this is the one thing that JM said (back in July at Tabula Rasa in Melbourne) would definitely get him going. Also means that it is very very likely that it is post-NFA, surely?
Wow, what a day in the Whedonverse!
The way how Joss responded (or not responded) to the questions in the CHUD interview about what happened after NFA made me quite certain that he plans on continuing somewhere there ...
Interesting to see Amy Acker specifically saying it would be Tim Minear to write & direct this. Which is good news, both because Tim Minear is so good (and deserves some good news on the work front), and because it makes the whole combo of projects sound more realistic, what with constraints on Joss's time for all these commitments.
I think I'm gonna go to sleep and wake up again to see what else Joss has up his sleeve! This morning is like opium - or at least what I imagine opium to be like.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2005-09-23 14:22 ]
I love AA, I think she's a wonderful actress and seems like a nice person. But Illyria isn't that great a character. She's yet another superpowered kiss ass chick. Both been there and so done that Joss. Fred was an amazing character who showed more strength in her little finger than Illyria could ever have. True strength that is, strength of character. To have survived in Pylea the way she did shows that. That's the type of kick ass female character I like, not the types that just kick and punch really hard.

I'll be very disappointed if any future Spike movie becomes a Spike-Illyria movie as I just know it will be yet another retread of strong woman, sidekick Spike. I'm so over that. I don't mind Illyria being in the movie, in fact I think she would work really well in it, but as a support character to Spike. Then if there are more movies she could lead in one of them.

But first I want a Spike movie, with him as the lead, and the story being his, not hers.

AA's going to be in Supernatural too. Good show, good actress. Can't wait.

[ edited by lynnie on 2005-09-23 14:24 ]
I think you'll likely get your wish, lynnie. This possible effort has always been billed as "the Spike movie." I'd imagine Illyria would be more sidekicky, and really - how fun were those two to watch together...? It was their interactions that helped me to not feel Fred's loss so acutely when watching Illyria. Spike seemed to help soften the blow with his little moments of understanding and pockets of insight concerning her transition. Plus, she keeps him always a bit off-balance, which is good fun.

A bit off-topic, but I never understood what Angel, Buffy, Giles, and the fans were seeing when they spoke of Spike as not too bright. I felt he was the most intuitive and insightful of the bunch -- most recently with Illyria and the group's reaction to her, but witness his love's bitch speech to B/A, his being the only one in Sunnydale to really understand Willow's loss of Oz, his laser-focused tugging on everyone's secret fears in The Yoko Factor, his connection with Dawn as an outsider, his instinctive response to Buffy's emptiness in S6... the list goes on. A Spike movie, with Illyria at his side? Oh, yes, please.
I think it makes sense that she'd be there, if they are continuing after NFA. You know, Illyria's got such a bubbly personality and sense of humor. bwa ha. Yep, the two of them stuck together, they could be quite the hoot.
It is exciting to know that Joss is actually contacting people and getting this going. I've been longing for this for over a year, and I'm thrilled to hear so much buzz (it makes me believe it is really going to happen).
If Spike is so insightful in everybody, then why didn't he understand that Buffy didn't care or love him in S6? Why didn't he understand that everyone has had it with Buffy in S7? Why didn't he see the pain in Wood or how Nikki suffered. Why can't he see that his past crimes is not about him but about the victim? Why couldn't he feel how much it bothers Buffy when she can't save an innocent life?

Spike has his moments, but he's definitely not as insightful as you say he is or he simply doesn't care.

I also don't see his love bitch speech as insightfull. It was a reflection of how he felt, but not everybody feels the same as he does. He is as insightful as long as he can reflect it on himself.

I used to think he was strongly capable of seeing other ones feelings. But I gave up on that image.

[ edited by Koos on 2005-09-23 15:41 ]
Spike is an extremely intelligent character that hides his softer side behind humor and snark. You can't really put any label on him. Also, the Spuffy relationship was extremely complicated, and I don't think you can say Buffy didn't care about him at all in season six. Quite the contrary, I think she was confused by her feelings and how he could completely take her over, and he picked up on that.
Lynnie:

I disagree. Well.. I also agree :) Strength of character is indeen often more interesting than physical prowess, and "Fred" was just as cool (or more so) than Illyria. But as far as I remember from the last few episodes of "Angel", Illyria did become more and more like Fred (or just more and more human). Remember one of her last lines?

"Wes is dead .. I'm feeling grief for him. I can't seem to control it. I wish to do more violence."

A simple 2-dimensional "ex-God-now-killing-machine"-type character would be slightly boorish, but I don't think Illyria's character was ever constant. In a movie on Illyria and Spike, I suppose they'd want to delve deeper into their characters. The humanisation of Illyria would be one interesting aspect. Also, if they could make Spike bad again ("School Hard"-bad); that would also be a plus.
The trouble is that Illyria was a great new character but owing to those twits at The WB cancelling Angel, we never got to see her develop properely in a season 6. So I can understand why some Buffyverse fans don't see the point of her. However, I think she has a great deal of potential. And Amy Acker is a terrific actress, she was a revelation in season 5.
"Spike has his moments, but he's definitely not as insightful as you say he is or he simply doesn't care."

Hmm, Koos -- I see where you're going and I get where you're coming from. Fair points, all. But I think we're talking about two separate, distinct things. It's possible for Spike to be incredibly insightful about people and their motivations, desires, pain, and still operate from a visceral, selfish place. (Vampire, after all.) I absolutely think that he saw and understood every one of the things you mentioned above, and believe that it was his own unmanageable passions and heartbreak that gave him a window into hearts and minds (and guts) of others. But I also believe, as you suggest, that his own desires, urges, and motivations superceded those realizations, and his behavior followed thusly. So we end up with his instinctive recognition of something dark or tragic arising in another, and his subsequent shoulder-shrugging. Or his realization that Buffy was, in fact, using him in S6, but his inability to turn her away. The very qualities and characteristics that made Spike so very able to see and relate are those that made him incapable of impulse control. Thus, his messy mix of incredible insight vs. often inappropriate response. Not quite monster, not quite man, indeed.

And this is precisely why he's so captivating to me. Straight heroes and villians are so boring -- I can't relate to such caracatures. But those who can't ever seem to get it fully right or deliciously wrong? Well, those are the ones for me. Spike and Illyria are both full of such contradictions; i dance the dance of joy at the thought of them at the helm of the next adventure...

ETA: Please pardon the inappropriate version of quoting above... my new OS 10.4 Tiger is chapping my ass by hiding such helpful things as W-esque "How To" tips that normally appear above the text box. Grr. Arrgh.

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2005-09-23 16:01 ]
And there could be zombies.
Awesome news. I have to say that while watching the final season of Angel I got the feeling that the Spike and Illyria storyline was being setup as possible spinoff.
The very qualities and characteristics that made Spike so very able to see and relate are those that made him incapable of impulse control. Thus, his messy mix of incredible insight vs. often inappropriate response.


I absolutely agree, barest_smidgen. Combined with Illyria, something extraordinary is bound to happen.
I have to say that while watching the final season of Angel I got the feeling that the Spike and Illyria storyline was being setup as possible spinoff.


I think it was more likely a set-up for stories in the mythical season 6. Amy Acker had said in interviews she had been looking forward to S6 because they had an incredible storyline planned for Illyria.

Also, I'm with the beautiful barest_smidgen on the Spike take. Smart people can do some pretty dumb things when their judgement is clouded by obsessive love or lust.

[ edited by Nebula1400 on 2005-09-23 16:19 ]
IMO Spike's insightfulness before Season 7 was geared towards his preditory nature. It is one of the things I love about the way the character is written. A really good preditor can focus on the vulnerabilities of the prey and until Season 7, in one way or another, that is what everyone was. He was a vampire without a soul, after all. Humans are his natural prey, whether he can physically attack them or not.

Season 7 was a total change. He had a soul that he had to deal with, past sins to come to terms with, a woman he loved but had attacked trying to work out her own feelings for him while sending him mixed messages. He was trying to find a way to live in the world as a vampire with a conscience and an awareness of his actions.

As far as Nikki or Robin Wood's pain, that never bothered me. Spike could certainly have been more sympathetic and kinder but there were plenty of good reasons not to expect him to be. Firstly, the two Slayers he killed would probably be the ones that he would feel the least amount of guilt about. They were combatants. They were the two humans that had a better chance of killing him than he had of killing them. They were fighters and met him that way. Secondly, as far as Robin, my guess is that if he had not pretended to be on Spike's team and then turned around and used what he had found out to try to kill Spike there would have been a lot more sympathy in the room. Wood did the equivelent of running from a bear, every old instinct Spike had, Robin got going. Spike went in for the kill verbally and emotionally if not physically. IMO it was not that he did not understand Wood's pain, it was that Wood had made himself an enemy and Spike used Wood's pain as a weapon against him. The fact that Robin was also his main rival for Buffy's affections at that point, I am sure also fueled the fire.

At the same time, Spike never claimed to be full of self-awareness. That is something he was trying to figure out once he got his soul. Bottom-line I think he had great instincts about other people and how to manipulate them but was focused outwardly becuase his needs as a Vampire were pretty easy - I want that, I try to take that using any means possible. Once he had a soul, he had to figure out himself, his needs, his motivations, and what behavior was acceptable in his new circumstances. Much more complicated and confusing.

And that is why I think that Spike trying to figure those things out without Buffy or Angel around to give him direction or help him understand how to deal with a conscience, especially if he is in the position of trying to help Illyria find direction and deal with her humanity could be so interesting. On one level it is funny to think of Spike teaching someone else to be human. On another he might do pretty well since he is insightful about others and like a first year teacher, only has to stay one lesson in front of the class. Of course anyone who has been in that position will tell you how scary and nerve wracking that can be.

Geez Louise! I keep starting to write short posts and they just grow. :-0

Also, have not had a chance to read the posts since I started writing this forever ago, so my apologies for anything that seems stupid or repetitive after you read recent posts.

(edited becuase sentences are supposed to make sense.)

[ edited by newcj on 2005-09-23 17:41 ]
Caught up now. Right there with you barest smidgen.
Yes, more great news, the process is slow moving but atleast there is a constant flow of rumours and news.
I really do hope spike is in the lead.
Amy is the best... I think she was my favourite thing about Angel

I want more Illyira, and with her being on Supernatural and Alias in the meantime is just fantastic - good on her!
I was going to post on this but I think barest_smidgen and newcj said all of what I had to say :) Insightful doesn't necessarily mean that you use your insight for good or that you aren't sometimes clouded by the overwhelming roiling of your own emotions and preconceptions. Spike is a fantastic character precisely because of his missteps and his insight isn't diminished by the fact that he uses it in less than kindly ways or is sometimes swayed by his own (sometimes less than savory) motivations. Nor does it make his insight less sharp for the fact that his most cutting insight comes out when he has had similar experience. ETA- guess I still did post a bit. All for Spike/Illyria, they are fun to watch together for the reasons stated in previous posts above.

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-09-23 16:29 ]
I don't think you can say Buffy didn't care about him at all in season six.

Not the way I see it. She saw him as a monster, and so did Spike when he looked back on himself in S7.

Quite the contrary, I think she was confused by her feelings and how he could completely take her over, and he picked up on that.

I didn't see him picking it up at all. On the contrary. He didn't understand Buffy in the slightest.

Spike sees everything through his own point of view. He also can only express his *own* feelings and thoughts (something he does extremely well and why he's so popular) but to see how someone else feels or thinks is a weakness. Especially with humans this is a problem for him. And while the Yoko Factor is a good example to the contrary, he still did underestimate the scoobies.

barest_smidgen, that is all wonderfully said, but, forgive me to say it bluntly, that he is then just an asshole who used his great insight for his own needs?

Or his realization that Buffy was, in fact, using him in S6, but his inability to turn her away.

Okay, see this is a wonderful example. If he thought that she was using him than in my own male-ego world he was using her too, equally, in the hope she one day would stop using him and return his love. And it's this aspect I am entirely missing from Spike in both season 6 and season 7.

Second. I miss the component why Buffy used him, how she felt and thought entirely. You say that he does has the insight to see her point of view, but to me if that is true than his ignoring makes him a jerk and he's making her simply feel guilty as hell.

It is possible that his own enormous guilt prevents him to deal with it properly, and he's simply shutting down. But that means he's ignoring his own (newfound) conscious and that makes him as dangerous as he has always been.


[ edited by Koos on 2005-09-23 16:48 ]
Oh, well said, newcj, well said. Never thought of that take on Spike and Illyria and am loving it. Makes me all giddy and wanting to go back to rewatch it with that in mind.

And I'd add to some of your well-thought-out thoughts: About Spike's pre-season 7 insight being predatory... he was particularly equipped for it -- more so than other vampires -- because of the overt sensitivity and sentimentality he bore as a human and the way that morphed into wild passions after he was turned. Uniquely qualified to sniff out desire, misery, and the places where they intersect.

And as for Robin Wood? Spike was his absolute most insightful when it came to Robin's particular pain. That was the whole point of Lies My Parents Told Me. It was precisely because he could relate so fully, so wrenchingly, to Robin, that he was able to see clear through to the man's desperation and heartbreak, and tear him down with such devastating, despicable accuracy. Still a predator when it suits him, our boy.

ETA: Koos said:

"barest_smidgen, that is all wonderfully said, but, forgive me to say it bluntly, that he is then just an asshole who used his great insight for his own needs?"

Well... yeah. ; )

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2005-09-23 16:50 ]

[ edited by barest_smidgen on 2005-09-23 16:54 ]
Ah, this makes me so happy. Illyria would be my first pick for a movie. There is so much we don't know about her. Will Fred be in there somewhere? Now, Joss, pleeease, let her resurrect Wes. Puhleease.
I did like this view on Spike very much, I have to admit that Barest-Smidgen. Don't get me wrong, I loved that scene with Wood too, but I found him way to easy to switch to the old fashioned stereotype Slayer-Vampire way of thinking.
Another point is, as I have said in the Joss-interview thread, he is going down the Xander-lane. You see, Xander IMO was even better in the insightfullness; but not really always capable of dealing with it in the right way (the dealing part was IMO his arcline). And I already noticed how they used the same tricks on Spike in AS5 they have used on Xander. Compare AS5 Spike with Xander in BS4. And most importantly compare Spike/Illyria with Xander/Anya.

On an added note: can I just say that Wood was a pretty easy victim? Not really worthy of Spike?

[ edited by Koos on 2005-09-23 17:16 ]
This is quite a day for me. I get the day off from school and wake up mid day to find out that Joss has a new movie in the works, and that the Spike-Illyria tele-movie is up and running. Havn't had this good a day in a long time.
I don't want to get involved in a long rant here so...the short version. The Spike/Buffy relationship was my favorite, and season 6 my favorite season for that reason (along with black Willow of course). To adequately explain why I believe as I do would take several pages...basically, I believe that Buffy did fall in love with Spike but could never face the fact because he was the personification of everything she hated and fought against, Spike completely loved Buffy (and this is amazing for a vampire without a soul). Obviously his "vamp nature" was something he constantly fought against...sometimes he was able to overcome the darkness and sometimes it overtook him. That only made him "human" and how ironic was that? Their passion has to be unquestioned...I mean even for super beings, collapsing a building is going above and beyond! Invisible Buffy certainly was enjoying herself exhibiting the playful sexual nature reserved for young folks in love...there is no doubt in my mind that he wasn't simply "in her heart", she loved him. In season 7, she was able to look directly at Spike instead of focusing on what he had been, and his loyalty to her never waivered. By all rights he should have killed Wood, nobody could blame him...but he showed compassion and a very human understanding of Wood's pain. Buffy sought out the comfort that, in the end, only Spike could provide; and to a large degree, he replaced her family and friends for that critical time allowing her to "see things clearly" and ultimately overcome The First. Somewhere, burried deep inside Spike, the goodness of William Pratt and the tenderness of the poet always lingered...once his soul was returned to him, it's presence became obvious. Angel was Buffy's first love, perhaps always her one true love, but in many ways, Spike was the better "man" and every bit as precious to her.
If he thought that she was using him than in my own male-ego world he was using her too, equally, in the hope she one day would stop using him and return his love. And it's this aspect I am entirely missing from Spike in both season 6 and season 7.


I definitely agree with the first part. At first he didn't care whether she was using him so long as she was with him, then he started to hope (in spite of himself` perhaps) that she would return his "love" and I throw that out in quotes because, lets face it, Spuffy love is a pretty damaged kind of emotion. Not sure which aspect you believe is missing in S6/S7, but I think that you hit on it a bit more later in passages like:

It is possible that his own enormous guilt prevents him to deal with it properly, and he's simply shutting down. But that means he's ignoring his own (newfound) conscious and that makes him as dangerous as he has always been.


Partially true. He does have this enormous guilt that drives him simultaneously towards and away from dealing with everything in a proper way. It hurts, so he shies away, but at the same moment he pushes himself towards it because he believes he deserves to suffer. Things like confronting Wood drag him backwards because maybe its so overwhelming that he reverts or it just feels safer/too easy to snap back into that to protect his developing baby-conscience. Wood was a pretty easy victim precisely because of William's ability to relate so completely to him. No match, by any means, though at the same time in reverting to form I'm tempted to say that it was helpful to his healing/dealing in that he saw more fully what he was and why. Great stuff, to be sure.
I loved the Illryia character and couldn't be happier that she may be resurrected. The tension between (and melding of) the Fred fragments within Illryia and Illyria's own nature was so interesting, and only beginning to be explored. I know based on interviews that Joss had big plans for Illyria-Fred and Wesley had AtS had a season 6. I can't wait to see what Joss/Tim might do with Illyria and Spike, the Sky Bully willing.
and...I love Amy's roles, Fred was a unique character and Illyria was a goddess in more ways than one! I think Illyria either hid or simply didn't understand the degree to which Fred's essence remained a part of her. Illyria was able to assume more than Fred's physical identity when her parents visited, she fooled both of them! That required extensive memories and an understanding of human interaction. Her grief at Wesley's death and her ability to connect with him as Fred as he lay dying was obviously more than "random memories"...to a very large degree, Fred lived on as a vital part of Illyria and that's what made the character amazing! Illyria is far more than simply another kick-ass female character...very very complex and rich, and a perfect match for Spike storywise!
There are those who wish only for Spike's tale to be told, there are those who only want some sort of resolution to what happened to the characters at the end of Angel.

Having a Illyria/Spike movie makes it sellable to the widest possible audience and maybe just maybe the only way that Joss can get a Buffyverse movie made in the near future. Whatever happens, it will be unpopular with some fans but I hope that the vast majority of Buffyverse fans will support this venture.

The best moment I have ever experienced in the fandom is when all the websites/forums/message boards got together and rallied behind the Saving Angel campaign. I have never been so proud to call myself a fan. It was our finest hour. I would love to see this kind of effort rekindled in support of whatever Joss and Tim and others come up.
See this thread from a couple of months back for some more fun and thoughtful in-depth Spike analysis from W-esquers...
Good times, that old Spike post, wish that I had participated, but as is often the case, the insightful and incisive analysis by my fellow W-esquers cut right through the heart of the matter. Love talking things out here :) In a world of dumbed down entertainment, W-esque reminds you that its okay to be smart ;)

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-09-23 18:02 ]
Simon, I had just come on-line during the Save Angel campaign. I sometimes wonder if my continued surprise at the factional anger, that I have since realized is pervasive in the BTVS, Angel and Firefly fan bases, is because there was so much pulling together going on at that time. You guys really impressed the hell out of me. Since then I have still been impressed by the furvor and extent of the factionalism, but in a different way. It would be nice if a Spike/Illyria movie could bring together a couple of those groups...

Hee,hee, barest_smidgen. I had forgotten about that thread...and there I am again coming in at the end with a long involved post just before the thread is archived. One of the dangers of having to work in Corporate America, I guess. Never time fo rthe fun stuff. ;-)

[ edited by newcj on 2005-09-23 18:02 ]

[ edited by newcj on 2005-09-23 18:03 ]
Great news all around. Is Minnear the one responsible for Wonderfalls? I hope so. That is the absolutely only series that I really enjoyed watching in the last few years other than Angel/Buffy.
It's all about the humor for me. Combined with the supernatural.
Spike and Illyria together will be great. That was the combination I was hoping for.
Nothing deep or insightful from me, just a big giant YAY!
Tim = The Inside, Wonderfalls (writer and executive producer, but not creator), Firefly, Angel, and more. See here for more.

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-09-23 18:14 ]
Wow, this is insane. I can't wait.
Spike can't exist in a vacuum, he has to have characters in the movie with him. Illryia makes sense.I would have loved to have seen Drusilla, since after CRUSH we didn't see her again. There could be quite bit of angst between them considering Spike has a soul now, their hundred year relationship and her heartbreaking back story.

As for Buffy/Spike, I think she had strong feelings for him in season six, else they wouldn't have came together with such intensity. Nothing is simple there and I think the remarkable DEAD THINGS showed her confusion about Spike and her self hatred very clearly. TOUCHED showed how far they had come in their relationship.. I loved the intensity/passion/sadness of that pairing, and it is still fascinating years after the show has ended. You don't get that everyday--not ever, really. The writers were not afraid to make a fan favorite relationship controversial, not to mention James/Sarah helped it along by having so much fiery goosebumpy chemistry together.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2005-09-23 18:29 ]
This is just great! I had a dream last night about seeing Illyria and now it's coming true...what should I try to dream for tonight?
...um, that one about me and a shirtless Spike covered with sexy wounds and stuff? Yup. That one. Thanks in advance, missingbuffy.
*raises eyebrow, taps foot* "Hmph..."

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-09-23 18:48 ]
Missingbuffy, I could use a new (better) job and/or enough money to retire young...
Oh, keep your drawers on, zeitgeist. It's just a fantasy. My real world is still all about you. But if you wouldn't mind, you know, with the accent and stuff...? ;D
LOL ;D above post was for your amusement (like you didn't know). Which accent would you prefer? I collect them all, you know.

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-09-23 19:03 ]
Amazing news. I really couldnt pick anyone better to go with Spike, and Acker is such a good actress.
barest, your thoughts on Spike so hit the spot. What an amazing character, love those arcs!!! As for an Illyria/Spike movie, nothing would make me happier. I love those crazy kids together. It's so nice to have an advocate out there for the buffyverse - you go Kristin!
This makes me so happy! I was so intrigued by Illyria and Amy's performance and was so disappointed that we weren't able to go on Illyria's journey to see where Joss was going to take us! Love Spike, but love Spike more when he has someone interesting to interact with!! He'll make a good "pet"!
Isn't Illyria a god rather than a goddess? I always thought Illyria was a male diety in Fred's female form. Which makes the whole female empowerment thing uh, pointless in this case, but makes the male/female gender roles thing very pointy, er, but not in a dirty way.

In any case, yay, Spike/Illyria movie!
Illyria was like a god in the sense that she was one of the supreme "Old Ones", the demons that ruled the earth before the existence of man. Old Ones are mentioned in the 2nd episode of Buffy, "the Harvest"... I was very psyched myself to see the Old Ones brought up on Angel since Joss's explanation of those that inhabited the earth always intrigued me.

[ edited by Caroline on 2005-09-23 21:38 ]
Do gods in the Buffyverse actually have genders? I just assumed they have evolved beyond any form of sex or sexuality.
Illyria was the God-King of the Primordium, which would indeed point to a male deity that just happened to get a female shell after spending an eternity in that sarcofagus.

Not that it really matters which sex Illyria is though, it's a kickass character and epic backstory (with the most epic scope of any BtVS or AtS storyline I'd say, besides perhaps the Slayerline that dates back almost as far as the Old Ones) either way.
Illyria (and let's not forget that old Latinate tradition of ending feminine names with a -a) didn't seem particularly male or female. I doubt it cared much about mere plumbing. Early on, Illyria cares about power, and finding a vessel sufficient to hold that power. Whether it is an innie or an outie ...

Spike/Illyria would be a great combo but probably needs one Buffy character in the mix. Starting anything with too few characters seems ... iffy.
Well, Wiccans believe in a supreme entity often referred to as The One, from that entity came the God and Goddess, both aspects of The One...they are worshiped as male and female entities but in reality are part of The One so...I guess it depends on your belief system whether gods are assigned sexual identity. Glory seemed feminine to me (lol). Wesley referred to Illyria in the neutral form as "it".
Glory seemed like Ben to me... wait...
What Gods have we seen in the Buffyverse aside from Glory, Jasmine and Illyria? Strange that they are all female, and that they are referred to as such, even Glory who was possibly the most extrovertly feminine. Jasmine could have been using her feminine attributes simply as part of her plan to spread peace and love, and Illyria isn't very humane at all in any way. I'm guessing for all three of them they could have come into this dimension as either gender.

I would also be interested to see which one of the three would win in a fight. I think Illyria could pull it off.

I also am very excited and I hope Amy does Alias for a while if the potential Buffyverse project doesn't materialise just yet, but of course I hope she's involved heavily with it. It would be great to see Illyria again, and also if Fred managed to come back so the two could share the same body.

I agree with Ocular about the few characters. If there's anything I've learnt from watching Joss's shows, it's that he works best with a large ensemble cast. Buffy started with five regular characters, although Cordelia only made very brief appearances, but over time the cast expanded and really worked well like that.

I loved the feel on Angel season one with only three main characters, but again I do think it was neccessary to build a larger ensemble so by season three and from then on there was quite a substantial cast, and Firefly had a nine-person regular cast.

I think if there is a Buffyverse series of some sort, they should definitely get in as many characters as possible, within reason. At least three to start with, hopefully more in the future. Something like Spike, Faith, Illyria, Willow, Andrew, just off the top of my head.

A film or a few mini-movies could work with fewer characters, two or three, but in order to sustain a series it would be better to have more characters. I think it would also be great to see the characters from both shows finally meet and team up, we had some nice moments in "Orpheus" and "Damage" that have shown this potential, as well as Spike's introduction to Angel, but it would always be interested to see how Wesley or Fred would interact with Xander, or Cordelia with Buffy or Anya, (because we know that no character is definitely dead), especially to see how the Scooby Gang would relate to the Angel characters that have changed so much since they knew them. Xander and Cordy were never truly finished, I felt.
Illyria is, I think, the character in the Buffyverse with the greatest potential for development, what with that little bit of Fred inside. And I'm all for whichever version of Spike shows up--Soulful or Snarky. Also perhaps Gunn could be worked in there too, perhaps--I always thought that character was underserved. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is I'm all for whatever 'verse action our dear mutant enemies come up with. Come one, come all!
Spike/Illyria would be a great combo but probably needs one Buffy character in the mix. Starting anything with too few characters seems ... iffy.

Or, resurrect Wes and there's your trio, complete with narrative complexity and dynamic romantic intrigue. Problem solved :)

Can there be more good news today? I don't want to be greedy, but this has been a fabulous "W" day on the calendar so far!
Glad to see Illyria joining the "preproduction"!
But, I must say again, not so happy about this being "the Spike movie". I could say a lot of more interesting characters to go with (right now, Spike was a really great character).

Finally, looks like all this is moving forward!
Fred can never come back Razor, after all her soul was completely destroyed when Illyria hollowed out her shell. That's what the whole lie to you part in Wesley's death scene was about, Illyria can act as if she's Fred and say goodbye to Wesley one more time, but deep down Wes knows he has already seen Fred for the last time and will never ever see her again because she is just completely gone (Fred's death is a lot different from any other Buffyverse death in that way). That's why that scene is so tragic and powerful. I for one would be insulted if Fred came back as a real seperate person, because it's just not consistent. But Illyria pretending to be Fred like in The Girl in Question is just fine by me of course, I was actually quite thrilled by her switching back and forth. But it still has to be Illyria in the end for it to be consistent with the history.
Storyteller,
Actually the only "proof" of that came from the evil doctor, and he was being beaten about by Gunn. I like to believe that much of Fred's essence remains intact and "mixed" with that which originally was Illyria.
That's why that scene is so tragic and powerful. I for one would be insulted if Fred came back as a real seperate person


I've said it before, but this is somewhat how I felt when William's arc was altered upon his reappearance in Angel. Since he is, in fact, back, however, I will certainly support the continuation of his story in any way that Joss, Tim, etc. come up with. More 'verse-ness is always good :)

ETA: Calledon, much as I'd like to think otherwise, I don't feel that Fred's soul is really there (obviously anyone is free to feel however they wish about this, just my thoughts here). However, I do think that the collection of her memories does leave a 'fingerprint' of sorts in Illyria's conciousness and the mixing of that into our nomad god-king certainly has what amounts to a similar affect. Thus, dear Fred lives on in a way...

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-09-23 22:48 ]
I really do hope that they don't bring fred back, cus it was established that her soul was destroyed. Nor do i want wes ressurected, that would make dying in the buffyverse being taken too lightly. Spike's essance was in the amulet, angel was in a hell dimension for centrieus. The only real person who was resurected was buffy.
Well, and Darla. And almost Tara, and I'm sure Joss would resurrect Wes, Fred etc. in a heartbeat if he felt the need to use those characters again. One of my only gripes with Joss's writing is the easy resurrections, death should be the final destination, not just a short stop halfway down the road. Buffy's resurrection was the only one truly done right, she hated it and it cost her dearly. Other than that I'm not a fan of resurrections, they just seem like a cheap way out to me. It makes a character's death much less significant. I never shed a tear at Spike's death because I already knew he was getting resurrected on Angel, and I'm sure Wesley's death scene will completely lose its power once he gets resurrected in a future project.

Wes: "Hey guys, I'm back!"
The others: "Oh, hey. Another person back from the dead. So... what else is new?"
Zeitgeist,
This is, of course, another example of the genius of Joss Whedon...we are free to interpret this as our individual belief system/philosophy dictates. I guess my first question would be: can a soul be destroyed? I've always suspected that souls are eternal. The "lie" of Illyria becoming Fred in Wesley's dying moments...how does one define "lie", in what context? Wes had made it clear to Illyria earlier that her becoming Fred was a lie TO HIM. With his dying breathes, Wes appeared quite comfortable with the "reality" of Fred's presence so...?? Again, Fred's soul being "consumed in the fire of creation" comes from the bad guys, and bad guys lie. Another path of consideration involves the age old question of "what are we"? If we are, as Buffy accepts, the embodiment of our memories, then Dawn is indeed Buffy's sister and Illyria's being is at least part Fred. Anyway...this is why I love Joss' work!
oh yeah, forgot about darla.
Until cameras start rolling, I won't raise my hopes, the pain after angel season five and constant rumours of come backs, been a long year. But the fans deserve no less for it to come back in a cool form, be great. A tv movie would be 2 episodes worth, which is cool. And if it does well, more movies please.
I'm totally agree with the last comments about resurrections.
I only like them when they serve to the story (Buffy S6), or when they fit with the mithology, like Angel being in a Hell Dimension, not dead, or Buffy not dying by a natural death.
Actually, I think Spike's death is wrong, he died naturally, vampires die when the sun dust them (amulets and essences apart).

[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2005-09-23 23:24 ]
SeanValen I'm guessing at least a year before we see something on screen (that's assuming a network goes for it - a more radical idea would be a direct to DVD approach).
can a soul be destroyed?...Again, Fred's soul being "consumed in the fire of creation"...the embodiment of our memories


Calledon -- totally with you :) Even if the soul isn't destroyed, does it necessarily follow that it remains with Fred's physical body? Does "consumed in the fire of creation" mean destroyed? Not necessarily. Isn't enlightenment/nirvana/heaven in a lot of belief systems merely the breakdown of subject/object orientation? An acceptance of and understanding of the part you play as one with all of creation? Or the dissolving/merging of a drop of water into the larger pool? I don't think that our evil boy genius necessarily lied, but its also true that just because a character believes something doesn't make it so :) My thought is that whatever happened to Fred's soul, the memories she left behind do indeed have an effect on the essence of what Illyria is, thus putting it (Illyria) on a fairly compelling path to changing its very essense by virtue of the mingling of Fred's memories within this shell. Fred's fingerprint, a whisper of what made her Fred, remains, regardless of whether it is her soul or merely the memories that made up her life and feelings. Its a fantastic and incredibly compelling setup for untold treasurehouses of story and I very much would love to see some of those stories come to pass. You are absolutely correct in that this is another of the many wonderful instances of vagueness that allow us 'into' the story so to speak, that make it more personal to us and our specific points of view. Thanks for your thoughtful and thought-provoking comments :) Fantastic stuff from Joss and crew, love it.

[ edited by zeitgeist on 2005-09-24 00:26 ]
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't The Whedon state once upon a time that Freds soul was not completely destroyed, and would start to make a comeback and that Amy Acker would have played both Fred/Illyria in the sixth season of angel that was not to be?
Yeah, I thought there was stuff said about Illyria and Fred sharing a body somehow if there was going to be a sixth season. From what I understood, Fred's soul was fragmented into a million pieces or something like that and, therefore, destroyed. But maybe the twist for season six was going to be a soul can't truly be destroyed and her soul bit by bit finds it's way back to her human body now being hosted by Illyria. With Fred's soul no where else to go it is forced to go back to her own body and is forced to share it with Illyria.

And I kind of don't understand why people get upset when Joss finds a creative and believable way to bring people back. It is a fantasy after all. Buffy's death in The Gift is still heart-wrenching to me and Buffy suffered so much when she came back so it wasn't a "Hey look it's Buffy - let's go kick some demon ass". She struggled with being there and it took her a long time to come back to who she was (and I still don't think she even quite got there). The only think that cheapened Spike's "death" for me was the fact that the WB made sure most people knew he'd be on Angel the following year. It would've meant so much more for me his sacrifice and his return not knowing either thing was going to happen.

I still think that they even set the stage to bring Wesley back by showing us Illyria's capabilities to time travel.
I can't help but think of how cool it would be to see Wes fighting his way through hell, Eastwood style. Whedon seems to have a special affection for Wes and Illyria, I hope his far superior storytellling ability finds a way for those two kids to get together.
Also with Spike I get a feeling like he's a work in progress, and far more likely to slip into his pre soul days then Angel. This will definitly be an interesting dynamic.
SeanValen I'm guessing at least a year before we see something on screen (that's assuming a network goes for it - a more radical idea would be a direct to DVD approach).

Simon


Perhaps, but there's always the mid season thing. I like to cling on to the hope of it being filmed in February or January, and broadcasted on the WB as a mid season thing. It's filming like two episodes, shouldn't take too long. But the dvd idea is cool, treat the dvd as the premiere of it, and anyone can broadcast it later, selling it to tv stations and around the world. It's annoying in a way fox can't finance it, god knows how much they've made off the buffyverse dvd sales. But guess it helps further if a tv station like WB finances it and they sell it, even more profit!

[ edited by SeanValen on 2005-09-24 01:45 ]
I generally thought the resurrections were handled well in the Buffyverse. I didn't feel that any of the characters deaths were cheapened by their resurrections, except for perhaps Spike, because by the time of his death the resurrection storyline had been done too many times. I don't see why Joss had to kill Spike if he was going to move to Angel; I'm sure he could have thought of another way to separate Buffy and Spike at the end of Chosen.
Spike's resurrection wasn't horrible, but any more will just be beating the storyline into the ground. I don't want Wesley to be resurrected; that will cheapen his death. But maybe Wesley could come back in some other form, like a voice inside Illyria's mind that helps guide her through the world. Or maybe Illyria has the power to contact the dead.
Storyteller, I haven't actually seen all of season 5 yet, the last episode I watched was "Underneath" and I have been watching one episode a week, so I can't really comment on the last five or six episodes because Illyria is very much a new character to me.

But, I did read the quotes from Joss where he said that if season six had gone ahead, Fred and Illyria would have been sharing the body, and that perhaps Fred could re-emrge from it.

To me, deaths like Tara's or Joyce's were very fitting and tragic, because they were so unexpected and brutal and frightening. Or Doyle's or Buffy's, where they died doing a big, grand, heroic thing. In my opinion, Fred's wasn't like either of those. It came completely out of nowhere, and it was a very supernatural and sudden death. But it was also very different in that it was really another being coming into her body and forcing her out of it.

Despite the explanations we received in Angel, it is possible that they weren't true. How do we know souls can be destroyed? Perhaps Fred's was forced into the world and all it would take is Willow to put it back in her body? That's the kind of thing I could imagine happening, Fred being returned to her body but having to share it with Illyria, which would lead to double the complexity.

To be honest, we've seen so much death and tragedy in the Buffyverse by now that getting to see a beloved character return would outweigh the feeling that their death may have been cheapened. Up to season six of Buffy and five of Angel, there hadn't been too many casualities at all. Doyle, Jenny and Joyce, but really I felt from then on a lot of characters died, in season five of Angel there was Cordy, Fred, Wes and possibly Gunn, and in Buffy there was Tara, Anya, and Spike.

Because there had only been a few before then, I could cope with them. But whenever half the cast is dead by the second half of Angel season five, I'm distraught. I really want to see these characters again if there are still potential stories to be told, and there are. I think Fred is one of the characters whose resurrection would be least disrespectful to her death, because she would still not be the same person, and it would still be terrible to have to share your body with someone else.

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