November 08 2005
Veronica Mars better than Buffy?
An article highlighting the similarities between the two shows and suggesting the Veronica Mars might actually be superior. (BTW: Major spoiler for those who haven't watched VM S1 yet).
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pat32082 | November 08, 19:45 CET
That doesn't make it better, just "different". (and hey, I *like* the supernatural angle, it's smart, perhaps even smarter, in a lot of ways)
Personally I haven't really gotten into Veronica Mars, what I've watched of it hasn't gotten me hooked. I'm not saying that I couldn't catch my interest eventually, just that it hasn't.
nna_funk | November 08, 19:51 CET
[ edited by MySerenity on 2005-11-09 02:54 ]
MySerenity | November 08, 19:54 CET
impalergeneral | November 08, 19:55 CET
mai | November 08, 19:59 CET
But VM is great, and the first season was very strong. I'm less impressed with the second season, but it's just starting, so I'll give it a chance. I think I have an aversion to V/D, so that might be it.
Rogue Slayer | November 08, 19:59 CET
palehorse | November 08, 20:07 CET
Knuckleball | November 08, 20:07 CET
I agree that VM's first season probably was a bit "better" than BtVS's, but BS1 was basically made with $3 in someone's garage and only had 12eps to work with as opposed to VM's full 22eps. I am a VM fan but nothing can touch BtVS, nothing. That whole "VM doesn't use supernatural mysteries, BtVS did" is ridiculous. I like the supernatural angle, that is one of the reasons that i like BtVS better. They can do all sorts of craziness on BtVS (and other supernatural shows) that shows rooted in "reality" cannot, and i enjoy the craziness.
Honestly, i didn't watch S1 of VM on tv just because all of the "the new BtVS", "what BtVS could have been", "BtVS, only realistic", etc. It annoyed me and made me resent VM a bit. I gave S1 a chance on DVD and liked it, and i will watch S2 on DVD. I can't watch it when it airs as it is on opposite Lost, and my loyalties are with Lost 100%.
Another thing about VM is that it had that whole "who killed Lily Kane" thing that was its backbone for S1. When shows are so based around one big secret and then the secret is revealed, the eps that dealt heavily with the secret are less rewatchable as you already know and it loses something. BtVS had its Big Bads but it was ALWAYS about the characters first, and the season long plot 2nd.
[ edited by Dhoffryn on 2005-11-09 03:13 ]
Dhoffryn | November 08, 20:10 CET
Knuckleball | November 08, 20:24 CET
injust | November 08, 20:26 CET
rabid | November 08, 20:33 CET
OTOH, the Whedonesque rule is that spilling info about shows that have already aired on US TV is not spoiling. Not so cool, but not spoiling. (The Serenity spoilage-free zone still in effect is a special exception to that rule). Again, I empathize. Still, I'll keep watching.
As for the hoary VM > BtVS debate - I'm not going to bother to go there when the article itself doesn't bother to make an actual argument, but appears to use the comparison mainly for shock value in the title . . . The first 4 eps have been fun, slick, and feature good acting, but nothing so special (but, I know I know, it gets better.)
SoddingNancyTribe | November 08, 20:37 CET
vampire dan | November 08, 20:44 CET
You are so right about that. I couldn't get enough the first time through VM, but it loses a lot of luster after everything's been revealed. That's not to say I don't love it, but I can't watch it over and over the way I can with Buffy.
Samantha | November 08, 20:55 CET
But I'll save it to my computer to read it later, I'm still watching 1x12 :P So thanks for the warning!
Angel TheVampire | November 08, 21:04 CET
fortunateizzi | November 08, 21:09 CET
[ edited by bobtaylor on 2005-11-09 04:21 ]
rbt | November 08, 21:15 CET
But not so much better that it is as good as Buffy.
In fact, much of the first season of VM was only just bearable (to me) because I was told "it gets better". I would have stopped watching otherwise.
S1 VM is really only mildly diverting television. Season 2 is where it has hit its stride, although it's only 5 episodes in so that might be too early to say as well.
crossoverman | November 08, 21:20 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | November 08, 21:34 CET
Worst though is this nonsensical elitist notion that any supernatural or SF elements instantly makes something 'inferior'. It's ludicrous, this snotty, unfounded idea that has allowed 'straight' fiction to look down on anything that was deemed 'genre' for decades now.
And yes the shows have a lot in common but the genre elements still make it hard to compare. Also, I still say that some of the core elements VM has in common with BtVS are the elements it almost literally lifted from it. "Young blond girl with only one parent has an unusual life at her very clique-y high school, where she often helps and saves people with the help of one or two friends." Gee, which show did I just describe? And if you can't tell, guess what that means?
Hey I do enjoy Veronica Mars, I think it's a better show than most other TV right now and I tune in every week. But it doesn't come close to any of Joss' shows for me personally. Ask me again after 5 seasons I suppose.
EdDantes | November 08, 21:38 CET
But I do agree with some that S1 of VM has been better than S1 of Buffy. But in general? Only time can tell.
NickSeng | November 08, 21:55 CET
As far as which one is better, let's see if I'm still talkin' about VM years after the new eps have stopped and if I'm still anxiously obsessing about possible Logan or Wallace tv movies.
Rank Amateur | November 08, 22:09 CET
ChosenOne5376 | November 08, 22:14 CET
rbt | November 08, 22:21 CET
Having said that, it is gratifying to see VM and Buffy spoken about in the same context - because Buffy is such a huge cultural phenomenon, and VM seems to be the most likely television show to even begin to contemplate possibly having the same sort of impact and following that Buffy had (and still has).
[ edited by ZuckerBaby on 2005-11-09 05:49 ]
ZuckerBaby | November 08, 22:48 CET
Turtle | November 08, 23:14 CET
That's a quote from Joss.
I personally love them both. A few weeks ago when I finished VM s1, I was overwhelmed with how much I loved it. Now I'd say it's definately up there with Buffy! To compare, well they both have their merits. We'll have to see what the next few seasons bring us.
nixygirl | November 08, 23:17 CET
And he's write in regard to the mystery elements - Buffy's stories were rarely structured like mysteries. There were "cases" to solve but mostly that required finding the right ancient text or the right magic spell. VM's mysteries actually require the characters to think things through - and much of the plot turns on Veronica's ability to think laterally.
I just don't think they've got the right mix of plot and character on VM that Buffy had.
crossoverman | November 08, 23:45 CET
Well comparing them is fun, and discussing those aspects is fun as well. What bugs me, I guess, is the 'declaring a winner of the race' that articles like these put in them. I think there are plenty aspects where one is better and plenty where the other has the edge. And what a person likes more is individual taste anyway. (And declaring winner on something that is nothing more than a genre difference really annoys me.)
Well, again, that is a genre difference, not a 'minus' of BtVS. I don't complain that in Lord of the Rings there's not enough detective work. Or that Shawshank was low on well choreographed fight scenes. Buffy wasn't a detective show so why should there be sleuth-y mysteries?
I can see how Joss admires it though since it's by his own admission less of a strong suit for him as a writer, and we always admire what others do better than we ourselves.
I do like the cases on Vm, but I wish they were more structured in a way that the audience can figure things out too. Most of the time, there's some clue that falls out of the sky or that only Veronica saw (and not us) so there's not always a chance for that, which is a pity. But there's some really clever stuff in there, and in a character comparison, Veronica is definitely a lot smarter than the Buffster! And something I love about VM is that she's actually....well, a bit of a 'darker' gal than Buffy! She's sneaky and can be vindictive as hell, which I love. Cordy would've had a much harder time with Veronica I think, cuz Veronica would've messed her up good...;-)
But I think BtVS, *because* of those supernatural elements working as metaphors, was better at striking a deeper emotional chord overall. And it was better as an ensemble show. Veronica, her dad and Logan are well fleshed out, but most other characters still feel too under-developed to me.
Oh and VM definitely has good dialogue but to me, Joss is still undefeated champeen there.
EdDantes | November 09, 01:34 CET
Probably a little better at thinking outside the box (actually a lot better at that), but I wouldn't say she's fantastically smarter than Buffy overall. Buffy always liked to play the dumb blonde, but she could've been a star student if she didn't have to skip classes to save the world. I think a lot of people underestimate her because she spent so much time hanging out with geniuses like Willow, Giles, and Oz.
Bayne | November 09, 02:09 CET
Simon | November 09, 02:34 CET
VM is the only show I watch now, and I have to say that everything that has been said about the shows' differences is true, but as ED said those differences don't necessarily have to be viewed as either a plus or a minus. For example, I prefer the humor in BtVS because of its sometimes Simpsonsesque style. A lot of that is owed to the supernatural elements in the show.
In art I feel that the ends justify the means. If you can use portals, demons, or spaceships as tools to make the audience feel the emotions of the characters, or make them laugh then I think you've created a successful piece of fiction. Just because those who have come before often use those elements to create stories with cardboard characters doen't mean that the tools themselves are broken.
On the subject of keeping it real, I must admit that VM is the best show I've seen with regard to making the computer interaction sequences semi-realistic. When custom apps have to be made they look pretty convincing, and they also use existing apps when available. The argument about Ubuntu's "uglified" fonts made me giddy with geeky excitement (though as a user of X from the 90s I must say that these kids have it soft if they think that Warty has ugly fonts)
[ edited by Caleb on 2005-11-09 10:05 ]
Caleb | November 09, 02:53 CET
They're tonally similar and are both well written, but for me the simlarities end there.
I'm so disappointed by how some people can be short sighted. I don't knowwhy people just get disdainful, when we get into shows that deal with supernatural things, like just because they're not real in a day to day basis, it means they're not good. Suffice tp say, implying that procedure dramas, lawyer or hospital dramas are better, reflect more realistic things, thus they're better. Forgetting that like Buffy, some shows that deal with supernatural things, can be more real than some "realistic show", but in a whole different level.
Numfar PTB | November 09, 04:53 CET
I would say it is enjoyable thus far, but hasn't gripped me like any of Whedon shows. I was three episodes in before I realised that Troy/Logan/Duncan were all different lads - they all looked the same to me and I couldn't keep track. (Must pay attention).
The Do That Girl | November 09, 05:33 CET
Madhatter | November 09, 05:59 CET
I truly think 100 years from now, BtVS will be remembered as a piece of art.
dottikin | November 09, 06:59 CET
LMAO!! We have that often with WB shows(I know VM is UPN). And yeah, the first few epis of VM we were going, "Uh, which one is he? Is that the ex-boyfriend or the best friend's boyfriend, or the other guy?"
Sad to say, all those young, smooth boys tend to blend in for me. I'd be having much trouble if I watched shows like The OC or Everwood or Supernatural or OTH. I think I'd forever be getting the boys mixed up!
Rogue Slayer | November 09, 10:18 CET
Caroline | November 09, 10:27 CET
I agree with those who posit that Buffy will be remembered as art. It possesses gorgeous, deeply analyzable layers that IMO VM simply doesn't, no matter how well and tightly plotted VM is, nor how good the acting of some of VM's principals are, nor how spiffy-jaunty some of its dialogue is. These are all very good things and Rob Thomas has much to be proud of. But he hasn't created anything close to the depths and heights of Buffy.
[ edited by phlebotinin on 2005-11-09 18:07 ]
phlebotinin | November 09, 11:06 CET
I will say that the comparisons between the two shows annoyed me when they first started last year. I felt like they were based on nothing more than having a smart, resourceful, female heroiine in high school. Since then (and since seeing VM mature as it went on) I think there are quite a few more comparisons than that, and they aren't just the one the author of this article mentions. The biggest, for me, are the blending of genres, the exaggerated nature of high-school pain and angst (since that's what it usually feels like IN high school), the courage to hit some really dark places and not go with the expected, and the use of metaphor (as RT pointed out in another piece, BtVS used high school-as-horror to illuminate things, while VM uses high-school-as-noir to accomplish the same thing.
So yes, in more ways than one, I think VM has earned that "new Buffy" moniker that everyone insists on using. It's easily my new favorite show, and I can't wait to see it from week to week. It definitely hasn't hit the Buffy-inspired love for me yet, but I don't know if Buffy would have either after just Season 1. For now, I tend to agree with phleb above, that while VM is incredibly tightly plotted and well-acted and well-written, it hasn't yet hit those same highs or lows, or the layers, or just the identifiable, must-watch-episodes-over-and-over quality of Buffy. I did buy the DVDs, but I don't think I'll watch eps multiple multiple times the way I do with my buffy ones. Still, it's an excellent start, and it could still get to those places, or at least approach them. And, it's such a personal thing. My love for Buffy isn't always logical. There are shows (The Wire, for instance) that I actually think, analytically, are better shows, but I'll never love them as much as I do Buffy. So, not really a fair contest :-)
(I just realized that, after saying i wasn't going to jump into the which-is-better fray, I did. oh well. Hard to avoid, with the thread subject, I suppose...)
acp | November 09, 13:07 CET
I did not see the most of the beginning of season 1. Is that why I have no idea who Troy is? I never got Duncan and Logan confused on VM, though I agree on it being easy to get the bland young boys, and girls, on many shows confused. That was one of my problems on Point Pleasant, if I recall correctly. I couldn't keep any of them straight because everybody looked alike...at least I think it was Point Pleasant...
newcj | November 09, 13:24 CET
SoddingNancyTribe | November 09, 13:42 CET
Really, Caroline? Heh.
Me, I have no problems in that respect. Frankly, Logan is just about the best thing in VM apart from Veronica (and maybe her dad). Totally distinguishable, and not bland at all.
While I agree that comparisons and 'which show is better' type discussions are slightly pointless, I also have to say that I enjoy Buffy more. But that's also because I was right there in the middle of the fandom.
I've rewatched, discussed and analysed every episode, know who wrote what, learned how to recognise their styles, know whole heaps about the actors, the way episodes are made, the mythology of the show, the different layers...pretty much like everyone here, I'd wager. Veronica Mars on the other hand, I 'just' watch. I've discussed some episodes, but never truly indepth. So I guess that's always gonna have me preferring Buffy, regardless of which is actually better. Just because I understand more of the complexities and things going on beneath the surface. And also because I was always way more in love with the Buffyverse characters than the VM ones, which is probably just a personal thing.
Still, I'm loving VM, it's probably my favorite show on right now (together with BSG), with Lost a close second. And I can't wait to see tonight's ep (it'll probably be tomorrow for me ;-)).
GVH | November 09, 13:52 CET