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November 15 2005

(SPOILER) James Marsters to Become a "Smallville" Regular? Kristin at EOnline mentions in her spoiler column that she's heard they want him to sign on to be a regular. (spoilers for other shows)

Heh, Jimmy two-times strikes again!
This would make me very happy - Smallville is getting decent ratings and if the rejuvinated fifth season is anything to go by, a sixth could be the best yet :-)
no! no regular!
SPIKE MOVIE!
I'll believe a "Spike movie" when James starts signing contracts. IMO, the man should not sit around and wait on a movie that might or might not get made..

With the good ratings and great reviews from SMALLVILLE, I don't doubt they would want him full time.

Still, most fans of his know by now, he already turned down a chance at the lead in the DRESDEN FILES because of location of the shoot, (See Jim Butcher's site) and I wonder if this will be similar. Yes, it's Vancouver, and Dresden was Toronto, so that's quite a bit of difference. Also, according to the message board talk, being a regular on SMALLVILLE isn't necessarily like being a regular on ANGEL and BUFFY where you have to be in every episode. From what is said, Erica Durance is only contracted for three more episodes than James has. Perhaps they want to tie him down, so he doesn't go off with a feature film or pilot and leave them in a bad way storylinewise, since he has become such a hot property.
Right, I agree. James shouldn't take on any work at all until a Spike movie is made. After all, you absolutely cannot fit a movie in between being a regular on a show.

Shadow Puppets is an exception, obviously. And possibly illegal.
I'd be OK with it. He could still make a Spike movie while on hiatus, or Smallville can work around him.

If I was him, I'd move my kids to Canada. Universal health care, safer environment, and exposure to a different view of the world would be good for them!
If this *keeps* him from making a Spike movie, I'm all for it. ;-)
I am pretty sure that the Spike movie could still be doable...and as SV IS getting very good ratings, it might be a good move for him. I realize the location thing is an issue, but do TV shows shoot episodes all the time? If not I think the schedule could be very flexible. I would love to live in Vancouver, but then, it's not my life and my kids I have to be concerned with. James has to do whats best for him. I am just glad the WB is noticing James and considering him a hot commodity.
One question though....what part would he play? More current Brainiac????? Another incarnation of Brainiac??????A whole new character????
James told me at the Toronto Expo that there was talk of bringing him back the following season as a different character. He sounded totally up for it at the time.
Hopefully she's not coming out of left field with this as she does with some tidbits and the Aquaman thing struck me as a joke...just seems odd after one bad ep they'd do that.

Having said that, I think it would be an excellent thing for James. Hopefully he could work out any family issues and like someone else said, it doesn't mean he'd have to be in every episode. I've noticed this season, that almost everybody has NOT been in an episode or two this season, already (except for obviously, Clark). I know in his interviews he's been very excited about this.

Still, I think I'll take this lightly until it's reported somewhere else. Can't help it, Kristin makes me gunshy.

If a Spike movie were to happen I think it would be a good move for it to happen while he was in the middle of some other project, such as this one. Then it can never appear like he was sitting around waiting for Spike to be resurrected or that he couldn't get anything BUT Spike roles. (Talking about appearance and perceptions here, not reality).

[ edited by Grace on 2005-11-15 15:43 ]
This is excellent news. Jimmy Two Times, hee. 8-)

Wherever he goes they always want more. I know the feeling. ;-)

vanity LOL. Yupe. Illegal making of a movie in his undies. We'll have to take down his briefs....er...I mean a brief. *blushes*

Hmmm? So SV is on the WB. The network that first had Spike and that wanted him back again for Ats. The WB want to keep JM around. *remembers The Mountain* WB. Spike. WB. Spike. Hmmm? I think someone's putting their little duckies in a row. Possibly.
FUTON CRITIC has the Aquaman news up, so yeah, that's legit, for sure. They are recasting and aren't going to use the that same actor in the role, thankfully. (Sorry to anyone who thought he was good, but eeeek)

Has anyone noticed, when James guest stars, they always want him back? Northern Exposure they started him as a bellhop, and next time we saw him as that adorable shy preacher, which could easily have went recurring because you just wanted to squeeze him. Then there was Buffy and Angel. We had the Mountain, and Ted was the main character's DAD, so if that show hadn't went down the toilet, he'd probably been asked back. Then we have SMALLVILLE where he's getting all kinds of notice as that nice environmentalist. ;)
I don't think James would become a regular on Smallville, since it is filmed in Canada and he just turned down the opportunity to tryout for Dresden because if it got picked up as a series he would be away from his son to much, which is actually funny since most sci-fi shows are only 12-14 eps a season. He is quite addiment about getting regular work closer to home. A re-occuring character would work for him but not a series regular - so I think you would see him return to Smallville if they want him that bad but I do not thin it would be for a whole 22 episode or a season full commitment.
RavenU, commuting to Vancouver for a regular role is completely different to travelling to (and needing to live in) Toronto for a lead role.

Toronto seems to be out of the question - Vancouver seems like a possibility. After all he is doing it now.
It seems, though, if they want him bad enough, he's in a position to negotiate terms that are workable for him (short of moving production of the show to LA).
Aquaman? For f's sake. Comic book fans must done something really bad to let Gough and Millar yet again emasculate another DC character.
At least the're not using the same actor or even premise that they used in Smallville. Boy did he suck - one of the worst actors I've ever suffered through. I've never really read any Aquaman either so I guess they won't be violating my memories, can't say I'm looking forward to the show though.
I really tried to watch Smallville this year, but even the addition of James cannnot make me suffer through this. I was a fan when the series first started, but I just cannot watch anymore. I really hope James holds out for another series, I think his talent is far beyond what is capable of the Smallville writers. Like that Joss guy. Yea he's good.
I find this odd. Talk has been rampant that this would be the last season of Smallville. This could be a sign they are trying to extend the series beyond this year by signing JM as a regular. There really wouldn't be a point if they planned on ending the show this year. I love Smallville but doubt the show has anymore then this season and one more season left.

What is it with shows and addeding JM towards the end of their shelf life anyway? If I was JM, I might have a complex. At anyrate, I think it would be a good idea and he could still do a Spike movie since he wouldn't be in every episode.
We'll not mention the Buffy/Angel writing connection on Smallville.. ;)
Well, James is almost making Smallville watchable for me, so that's something. I wouldn't particularly be heartbroken if he moved on to something better, but I'm sure he's enjoying himself. It certainly shows in his acting. And it's always nice to have James back on tv.
And due to the miracles of torrents, I can just flip through an episode for James' stuff and don't have to be bothered by the rest. The episodes are a lot shorter, but you miss none of the quality! :~P

As for a Spike movie...well, my heart lies with Spike above all, but I'm not sure it's going to come together. Or maybe not within James' given time-frame, which I can't argue with(and I don't particularly want to see him start off shanshued or something). So I'm gonna have to be all zen-like on that front, and just say whatever happens happens.

And James certainly isn't hurting for work, so good for him.

We'll not mention the Buffy/Angel writing connection on Smallville..

Let's not...Deknight is so surprising me. And not in a good way...

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2005-11-15 17:26 ]
Aquaman? For f's sake. Comic book fans must done something really bad to let Gough and Millar yet again emasculate another DC character.


At least the're not using the same actor or even premise that they used in Smallville. Boy did he suck - one of the worst actors I've ever suffered through. I've never really read any Aquaman either so I guess they won't be violating my memories, can't say I'm looking forward to the show though.


You could look at it as simple emasculation, or you could look at it as pure, hilarious, ramped up camp fun. That whole water revivification scene was pure unadulterated campy homoeroticism, very tongue in cheek. Of course they knew the actor read light and was one of the many pretty, queer, eyelash-fluttering WB boys (almost all of which have guest-starred on 7th Heaven, Smallville, or both). That's the attraction. Some of us actually enjoy a bit of homoerotic silliness. I think as a gay person I'm allowed to indulge in a bit of trashy camp without feeling guilty.
Actually, the producer has said in TV GUIDE that he is definitely going to take the series as far as they'll let him.

DeKnight was one of my favorite writers for Spike in the Buffy/Angel series. People are saying this last episode of SMALLVILLE (SPLINTER) was a real stand-out. I like the huge epic music and the show does have a theatrical quality about it.

I have found that the fans are as crazy and obsessive about SMALLVILLE as we Whedonverse fans are about our shows. James went from one huge internet fandom to another. His take on
Brainiac is definitely well loved if the various message boards are any indication.
I love Steven DeKnight's writing too Spikey, and I think he really adores James. DeKnight loved writing for Spike...so where's the bad here? James is having fun, the reveiws are great, the producers are happy, the fans are happy, and the writing and story lines have improved. I still hope for a Spike movie that continues his fantastic story. If it happens I will be thrilled. But in the meantime I am happy just to have James back on my TV. Again...the more he works, the happier I'll be, and the better chance for him to get noticed.
SDK wrote the last ep right?

Well the boy done good. I know people who are purely watching the eps JM is in solely for JM. And yet this ep is prompting so much discussion. What was real, what wasn't, when did reality in each scene bleed into delusion. Many different theories and opinions. You don't get people doing that who normally have no interest in the plots without it being a bit special. imo.
Lynnie, you are right. Not to mention, (As Chickenbird said) there is sexual innuendo and subtext (which is similar to Whedonverse --particularly ATS) and much camp.

I'll never love anything like I loved the Buffyverse, but SMALLVILLE is fun.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2005-11-15 18:19 ]
I'm afraid I care more for Buffyverse movies than I do for JM's career, so I'm in the Spike movie comes first camp. Unless he can squeeze it in, in which case I'm not fussed what he does.

But relying on JM pulling in viewers to help get another season? Didn't work well for Angel, sadly.
Some of us actually enjoy a bit of homoerotic silliness


I love homoerotic silliness as the next person. But what I can't stand is that the producers took a mythical American icon and blandified the character to such an extent that the homerotic undertones between him and Lex is the only interesting thing to watch on screen. I'm appalled about what they did to the character.

How Clark Kent came to be Superman is a story of 'epic proportions' (yes I know that's an awful cliche) and is a wonderful tale of how a young man came to terms with his powers and how he could help humanity. But what did we get? A typical WB drama that in its early seasons ripped off the Buffy season one 'monster of the week' episodes.

I can't wait to see how Singer interprets Superman, I have faith in him not dropping the ball on this one.
I'm w/Simon. Also from reading Kristin's actual text I found myself unsure if she meant a regular on Smallville or a regular on the Aquaman spinoff.
Ah interesting spot zeitgeist. That would explain James' comments about coming back as a different character, though whether this Aquaman show was going ahead when he made those comments is unknown (to me at least). At the moment I've got very little interest in Aquaman but James as a regular might pique said interest.
the Aquaman spinoff.


I'll be surprised if this even get's air time.
That would explain James' comments about coming back as a different character

When James spoke to me, he was talking about Smallville.

But relying on JM pulling in viewers to help get another season? Didn't work well for Angel, sadly.

The viewers have already been pulled in, for a variety of reasons, not just JM. Smallville is currently the WB's top rated show and doing very well in key demographics that advertisers love. I thought part of the reason we got to have a season five of Angel was because the WB wanted JM. There was even a renew Angel campaign after season four due to cancellation fears.
This new "Aquaman" is barely Aquaman. They aren't even calling the character "Aquaman". They're retaining the name "Arthur Curry". But from what I've read it sounds like a different take than what we saw in "Smallville" and certainly different than the comics. It seems like they're starting fresh (no pun intended regarding the WB's "fresh episodes") with a concept that isn't building on what we saw of the Arthur Curry who was on Smallville. Obviously, I could be wrong.

As far as James goes, I think if there is a Spike movie, he'll find the time to do it. I'm glad for him that he's getting more work. My only problem with his being on Smallville more often is that I'll have to watch more Smallville. Of course, I really don't. But I will--at least for a while.
The ratings for Angel were up and wasn't that why we were all shocked by it's cancellation? The WB doesn't own Angel, Fox does and wasn't that the problem with Buffy in their fifth season? Apparently, the WB does actually own SMALLVILLE.

As for Aquaman, I might be wrong, but I could have sworn I read that it was being filmed in Florida. Since JM turned down a chance at the lead role of Harry Dresden because it was in Toronto, then I doubt he'd take a non-lead role in the Aquaman pilot.
When James spoke to me, he was talking about Smallville.

Yeah, I thought it was mentioned too long ago for it to have been about Aquaman, thanks for the clarification killinj :)
I DO think adding Spike to Angel season 5 DID improve ratings. Lets face it, neither BTVS or ATS ever had a huge number of veiwers as compared to say shows on NBC, ABC, and the like, but I think the ratings were very good for season 5, and like someone else said, we wouldn't even have had a season 5 if James hadn't signed on. Even the WB has ADMITTED they made a MISTAKE with Angel's cancellation...so I doubt they weren't happy with JM and Spike's contribution to the show....

I also think the SV fans are impressed with the over all storylines and acting this year. Maybe all the hype about losing key characters and just the pure fact that the story is fast approaching a turning point for Clark have sucked more veiwers in. But I would bet that the addition of JM has, if nothing else, drawn a lot of us as veiwers and also kept the media buzzing. Ratings are better than they have ever been...so something is going right....
The addition of JM would force me to continue watching Smallville. That would be a 'special hell', and I don't want to go there.
"The ratings for Angel were up and wasn't that why we were all shocked by it's cancellation?"

True, but I think a key difference is that Smallville has broken a viewer record or three for the Network already this season, versus the numbers just being "up."

Last week's Splinter was very good, as Lynnie mentioned. While there were comparisons to Tabula Rasa before it aired, I think it was handled completely different and dare I say, maybe better? I loved that the reality and non-reality blended together so well that it wasn't always possible to tell one from the other.

I guess I'm not really seeing why it's such a painful experience for some to watch. I'm enjoying it quite a bit, and yes, I have no real clue about whether things fit into Superman canon or not. Perhaps that's part of the difference?
Ah yes I completely forgot about DeKnight! See how Smallville has traumatized me? I have blocked it out of mind.
The new Aquaman series will be a different animal from the Aquaman seen in Smallville. From what I've heard, it's going to be placed in Florida, and instead of kryptonite or a hellmouth (I bring up hellmouth, since that is what they tried to make kryptonite equivalent to, in a way, in Smallville), they're going to have the Bermuda Triangle causing all sorts of ooky weirdness instead.
You know if people dislike the show so much they know where the off switch is. Seriously, JM fan or not if you don't like it don't watch it. There are plenty of people, new viewers that is, that are watching and enjoying so I don't think it'd make too much of a dent in the ratings.
Don't be silly, how can we all say BtVS/AtS was so much better if we don't force ourselves to watch rubbish?

Spoil our fun, will ya?

Saying that, Smallville is my fun at the moment. Precious little else in my fave genre that is watchable.
You know if people dislike the show so much they know where the off switch is. Seriously, JM fan or not if you don't like it don't watch it. There are plenty of people, new viewers that is, that are watching and enjoying so I don't think it'd make too much of a dent in the ratings.

I'm certainly not watching it to help the ratings. I'm watching it because I'm *that* starved for some quality James stuff. I do, indeed, know where the off switch is, but I'll suffer through what I consider mind numbing crap for James. And well, the torrent idea is looking better and better for me, because I'll get the best of both worlds.

And apparently some James fans have stopped watching it because it's so atrocious. Everyone has their limits. I think James being on something like Charmed might reach mine, but I can suffer through Smallville for a bit longer. And sometimes it's so bad it's fun to mock. In my opinion, of course.

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2005-11-16 00:32 ]
And apparently some James fans have stopped watching it because it's so atrocious. Everyone has their limits.


And I do think a few James fans have left, the ratings do seem to be faltering a bit. So I actually think their departure from viewership has made a dent in the ratings.
Actually it's really not a bad little show , it's funny, it's campy and James is really good on it . I've also gone back and watched previous seasons and I'd far rather watch Smallville than most of the crud on the box .

There seems to be a bit of a * superior* attitude towards Smallville from some Buffy and Angel fans . Personally as someone who still takes regular ribbings for being a Buffy fan from people who judge without watching or judge from the title, I'm not interested in playing " Too cool for school"

Smallville has pretty decent ratings and a dedicated online fandom who are equally as passionate about their show as we are about Buffy ( The speed at which the main forum moves is alarming, they have over 21,000 members!) And I'm not about to insult them by dismissing their show out of hand . Sure it's not for everyone but neither was Buffy or Angel or Firefly or Veronica Mars ( Sorry Joss I've watched a few eps of VM but I'm not feeling the love)

You may not like it but that doesn't make it bad . And In my opinion it's certainly nowhere near the *so bad it's fun to mock* league.

Comparing *anything* To Buffy and Angel is comparing apples with oranges and is therefore pretty fruitless ( yeah, sorry, couldn't resist).

If you enjoy it , watch it. If not then skip to the JM parts or skip it altogether . No harm no foul.

ETA correct numbers of members at Kryptonsite ... I was out by 17,000!

[ edited by debw on 2005-11-16 09:51 ]
Good for James, if that's true. I hear you get a good regular paycheck for that sort of thing.

I bet Michael Rosenbaum has a James-shaped Brainiac voodoo doll in his trailer...
The viewers have already been pulled in, for a variety of reasons, not just JM. Smallville is currently the WB's top rated show and doing very well in key demographics that advertisers love.

Just to clarify this one, the last Smallville episode was a record low for The WB in the time slot, and the ratings for Smallville have actually started to slant down at the critical sweeps time. It's in trouble. Just nobody is sayin' that, cause you know, only the positive gets through sometimes.

That said, it'll last at least this season, and it wouldn't surprise me if it reappeared next year. Certainly, though, at the end of this season it will have passed the 100 episode syndication point (ka-jing!) and will be quite a bloat for The WB to carry. It's possible an "Angel" will happen again, and they'll choose to invest to money in another project.

With regards to the person above who asked why James doesn't move his kid to Canada... Uhm, both his kid and ex-wife (and mother of the child) might have some say in that.
With regards to the person above who asked why James doesn't move his kid to Canada... Uhm, both his kid and ex-wife (and mother of the child) might have some say in that.

James did say in Toronto that if he had custody of his son (I take it that means he has custody of his niece) he would move here (to Canada I mean, not Toronto).
Gossi, where are you getting your rating information? MediaWeek put it up as a winner in it's time slot last week, and certainly beats everything that the WB aired in the horror Thursday night line up, last year.

ETA: Deb, great post. Snobbery from this particular fandom (where we've been treated like unloved stepchildren for years) is a bit puzzling.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2005-11-16 02:21 ]
I bet Michael Rosenbaum has a James-shaped Brainiac voodoo doll in his trailer...

Probably easier just to paint a Sideshow Spike's hair dark and dress him up in 'Fine' clothes! Hmm...that's an idea. Oh Hubby dear, how about another Spike doll for me to experiment with!! I mean, not for voodoo, just to play dress up with dark hair! :~P
"There seems to be a bit of a * superior* attitude towards Smallville from some Buffy and Angel fans ."
I guess I'm not the only that's been getting a similar vibe...been feeling like I must have less discriminating tastes than some for enjoying the show. Won't say any more 'bout that though. No offense taken and none meant.

Just an FYI: here's the Media Week Page That spikeylover is referring to. Granted, Angel was canned rather surprisingly with decent ratings, so not saying it can't happen, but I don't think Smallville is any danger based soley on ratings (other factors could always apply I suppose).
Well, I have watched Smallville. Even in the old seasons before James, I gave it plenty of chances, and now I've watched pretty much all of this season and my personal opinion is that it's so bad that it makes my brain bleed.

I agree with Simon and Zeitgeist that they've pretty much wrecked the 'coming of age' part of the Superman mythos by reducing him to some pouty Dawson's Creek reject and I absolutely loathe how they've been ripping off Buffy. Where that is concerned they're pretty much in the Charmed Corner of Shame. And, like Charmed they don't know how to work the concept.

I am still amazed on a weekly basis about how awful the acting is. Except for Lex, and now except for James. Not that they get a hell of a lot of good stuff to do, but they do what they can with it. Clark, Blana and the rest are just walking examples of what not to do as an actor.

The character development is poor, partially because this show is terrified of actual growth and keeps the status quo desperately steady. Clark's parents get nothing to do but look worried and say 'Clark!!' a lot. Lana is a joke (as are their eternal vague conversations) the arrival of Lois (Now lois used to live in Smallville too??) renders the existence of Chloe pointles since she already was a faux-Lois to begin with. (And btw, if you live in a town called Smallville, it's ludicrous to call only Clark 'Smallville'. EVERYBODY around here is from Smallville, alright?)

And the logic holes. My god! There's a meteor storm raining down and before anyone can even know it, a whole police force shows up guns blazing just where two Kryptonians arrive. Why? And after they're gone, no one remembers them? Only Lana? All those cops just forget those super powered aliens?? And if I have to see one more episode where some new color kryptonite turns Clark into 'Jerk-Clark', I'm gonna have an aneurysm!!

I do like Brainiac's character. He was always a crappy villain in the comics anyway and I like they way they play this. James as said, does what he can with it so who knows. Everything else is just really really bad in my opinion.

So if there's a 'superior attitude' from some Joss fans it's probably because they strongly feel Buffy, Angel and Firefly are superior shows.

[ edited by EdDantes on 2005-11-16 02:33 ]
Actually, Deb, Kryptonsite has 21,000 + members. Check it out. Like I said, it's a HUGE internet fandom.

http://www.kryptonsite.com/forums/

Obviously, not everyone likes it, but they have a very devoted fanbase, as passionate as the Buffy ones. (I've earned new respect for this bunch, and right now, I'm feeling very protective and defensive of them.)
I've heard pretty much the same arguments against BtVS/AtS for years. Good job I'm not influenced by other people, or I would have missed out on some good writing over that time.

The Smallville fandom is overall a positive place to play. I must say I try to encourage genre shows overall because I prefer them to reality rubbish. Each to their own - I'd hate to feel the need to put everything else down in order to prove 'my' show was the best.

I'd much rather be glad for the people enjoying it and move along. But that's just me ;-)
The only really real Buffy is Buffy and she's gone!

I don't think anyone is arguing that Smallville is better than Buffy .. hell *nothing* is better than Buffy .

But other shows have their own merits, their own style their own fandoms .

As Buffy fans we don't do ourselves any favours by dismissing the shows that other people love as being inferior , because that implies that their fandoms are inferior .

Best to say " tried it, not my cup of tea"


Those of us who are enjoying Smallville are having fun and, naturally we want that fun to go on for as long as possible. We get to enjoy De Knight's writing James' acting and some really great talent in the characters of Lex and Lionel Luthor.

I long ago gave up trying to find a show to replace Buffy in my schedule, there isn't and never will be another show which grabs my attention in that way ( not even Firefly).

I have my DVD's and can still enjoy online debate about Btvs and AtS and I have my hopes that the verse will continue .

In the meantime I have another show which entertains and amuses me and I have the chance to see my favourite actor on my screen again.

There is no bad here.

By the way Gossi , as others have pointed out it helps to get your facts straight before quoting ratings info in an attempt to belittle a show or an actor . Smallville this season is kicking arse against some very tough competition . A high of over 6 million and consistantly strong ratings for the rest of the season. So far it's been in the " winners" column every week . Not bad going after many people predicted it was being shunted to a difficult timeslot to die !!
Just to clarify this one, the last Smallville episode was a record low for The WB in the time slot, and the ratings for Smallville have actually started to slant down at the critical sweeps time. It's in trouble. Just nobody is sayin' that, cause you know, only the positive gets through sometimes.


Record low for the time slot??

This last Smallville episode, Thursday November 10, the one you say was a record low, had 5,510,000 viewers.

The previous Smallville episode, Thursday November 3, had 5,410,000 viewers.

The seventh Smallville episode last year, when it was still on Wednesdays, had 5,020,000 viewers.

As for the Thursday time slot, this time last year, Thursday November 11, the WB aired the movie "Save The Last Dance" as their "WB Thursday Night Movie," which had 3,010,000 viewers.

The previous Thursday, November 4, had 3,380,000 viewers for regular WB Thursday programming Blue Collar TV and 2,130,000 for Drew Carey's Green Screen, which were fairly normal numbers for both.

The next Thursday, November 18, the movie "The Whole Nine Yards" had 2,420,000 viewers.

The Thursday after that, November 25, the movie "Samantha: American Girl Holiday" had 2,370,000 viewers.

And the Thursday after THAT, December 2, the movie "40 Days and 40 Nights" had 1,940,000 viewers.

THAT'S trouble?? Maybe the real reason that nobody's saying that is because it isn't true.

(All numbers are available from ABC MediaNet)
I like numbers. deanna's numbers that is, not the show. Haven't watched it so can't comment. ;0)

But over 5 million viewers on a Thursday which is a tough night. Pretty damn good going from what I can see. It's almost like people are wishing it does badly. I don't understand that at all. What good will it do you if it does badly and you don't like the show anyway? It wont unfortunately bring back Angel, so the only thing I can think of is quite nasty actually, so I wont voice it.

The WB have learnt from cancelling a show with very good ratings, even if it is an old show. They regret cancelling Angel and are probably being a lot more careful with the "winners" that they do have now.

As Buffy fans we don't do ourselves any favours by dismissing the shows that other people love as being inferior , because that implies that their fandoms are inferior .


I'm not quite sure I see the logic in that. If I think Smallville is inferior to Buffy/Angel/Firefly/paint drying, it means I think the *show* is inferior, and everything that that entails(writing, acting, plot, etc). Why would that mean I think the people who watch it are inferior? It just makes me think that the people who enjoy it have different tastes than I do. And I'm pretty sure that's okay. I've met several people who really love a lot of shows/movies/music groups I feel are inferior. I don't think less of them, I just know we enjoy different things in entertainment. I mean, my sister likes Hillary Duff music, should I think *her* inferior because she listens to that candy-pop drivel and doesn't enjoy the genius of Simon and Garfunkel? Of course not! She just likes different things than I do.

I think a fandom (and sometimes I really hate that word, because it lumps everyone together) defines itself by what it does and how it acts. I'd certainly prefer to be defined by what I do than what I like. And I guess it's basically down to each individual fan to decide if they're going to let their self worth be determined by other people's opinions of their entertainment preferences.

On one hand, I'm very glad there is a Smallville to entertain the people who like it. On the other hand, its continued success feels like another nail in the coffin of what I consider quality(Joss perhaps...) programs. I'm really afraid there won't be room for great writing and acting if shows like Smallville flourish. But then, I've never really been mainstream, and I can count on one hand the shows I consider 'must see'. So tv execs are certainly not thinking of people like me when they pick their shows, and if ratings are anything to go by, they're smart not to. They're smart to go with the Smallville's and the Charmeds and the OTHs and the OCs and whatever else is popular out there.

I will say that I am surprised when people who really loved Joss' shows also really love shows like Smallville, but then I just figure that maybe people enjoyed different things from Joss' shows than I did, or enjoyed the shows in a different way. I don't see any reason to judge them for seeing things differently, but I do reserve my right to judge tv shows.

And just on a tiny level, I hope Smallville doesn't get cancelled, because that's just not a good streak for James. And no, I know he had nothing to do with Angel or The Mountain getting canned, but still...
But so far as I can tell, Smallville is doing just 'Fine'. And they'd be smart to bring James on as a regular. And I'll probably watch. And I'll definitely bitch. But sometimes it's tough being a James fan, and we have to make sacrifices to see our fella.

[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2005-11-16 17:48 ]
That is a perfectly valid viewpoint to have. It's just you know, every thread related to Smallville, the same old bitching. It gets frustrating after a while. But that (I guess) is the nature of message boards.

As long as everyone adds their same old two cents and no-one loses an eye I suppose we can carry onwards and upwards. Or stay in the same spot, if we wish :-)

eta: I agree that it is a smart move on the WBs part that they want James to stay on. I hope it all works out and we can see him on a regular basis for the foreseeable future. Thanks to deanna for the correct viewing figures!

[ edited by vanity on 2005-11-16 17:59 ]
It's just you know, every thread related to Smallville, the same old bitching. It gets frustrating after a while.

I feel the same way about the constant praising! :~P

But as you say, it's the nature of message boards. At least non-Smallville boards, because I assume there's not a lot of bitching at the fansites. I would certainly hope not, anyway! Everyone should have somewhere to go that's free of bitching about their favorite things.

But at least most of us can agree that James is aces and he's an asset to whatever show he's on, even if we can't agree on the show! :~)
It's just you know, every thread related to Smallville, the same old bitching.

I guess I can see the frustration of the Smallville admirers, but it happens because, at the end of the day, this isn't a Smallville forum. And I find posters here are always, or almost always, thoughtful and fairly polite, even when voicing extreme criticsm (which any board would be totally bland without).

My guess is that one reason Smallville elicits such repeated criticism when it pops up (for a James appearance, or a Joss-verse writer) is that it's the kind of show that many here wanted to like, and had high hopes for. I know I watched the first season and part of the second, hoping it could turn into something that was at least decent. Instead, my feelings about it echo those of Ed D, Simon, and many others who have found fault with the acting, destroyed Superman past, incoherence, and general angsty-soapy-teen-melodrama feel to the writing, characters, and plots. And I don't think many people here are putting it down based just on the title or premise or what they hear about it, as debw suggested above they've actually watched it and formed their opinions from that, not from listening to others' critiques.

But you're right - the constant criticism doesn't serve much purpose other than venting, and I certainly don't look down on Smallville fans, or the fandom, and I have no desire for their show to be cancelled. I know how much it can hurt to have a favorite show cancelled. As R_S said, I have many friends with very different taste from mine. We laugh about it and tease each other, but it in no way affects my respect for their judgement.
It is, though, sometimes fun to read peoples' critiques of other shows. So much of this forum is, by its nature, devoted to praising the shows and characters that we all love that it's nice to get some variety, and read about what other shows posters like or dislike and why. For that, I enjoy reading the occasional thread like this that pops up.
I've heard pretty much the same arguments against BtVS/AtS for years. Good job I'm not influenced by other people, or I would have missed out on some good writing over that time.

Well a lot of the complaints I listed are specifically things that can only apply to Smallville or are things in which it's very opposite to Buffy in its structure so that can't really be the case. And at no point did I ever say that anyone had to read my posts and was then subsequently forced to stop watching Smallville. Everyone should watch whatever they like. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I'm just stating my opinion.

As Buffy fans we don't do ourselves any favours by dismissing the shows that other people love as being inferior , because that implies that their fandoms are inferior .

Sorry but that doesn't make a lot of sense. According to this reasoning, everybody 'should' like every show there is equally. That's not how it is, for anyone. Everyone can judge for themselves what they like to watch. If I see something, I form an opinion about it. And I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Smallville fans who do the same and dislike other shows for their own reasons.

You could have a case if I hadn't even watched Smallville, but I have. I've watched it and I don't think it's good. If you actually read what I write, you'll notice that at no point have I said *anything* about 'the fandom'. My opinion on a show has nothing to do with it's fandom. If Smallville had higher ratings than ER or CSI my opinion on it would be the same. If only 2 people were watching it, it would be the same. I have said nothing against Smallville fans. Why would I? I'm sure they're nice people. Why would that affect my opinion on the actual show? I don't understand what they see in it, but then why would they care that I don't? I don't have to understand. As long as they understand.

There's always taste involved. Different people like different things. I've enjoyed things in spite of their faults, who hasn't? I can understand people not liking Buffy even if they do watch it. The whole concept, the genre, the style. I can see it's not everybody's thing. To each their own.

Some things however are not a matter of taste or opinion. A story with more plotholes and logic faults is technically simply a lesser story. I can still enjoy something like that, and I have. Hell, even on Buffy I could see a plot hole or some weaker element in the writing or some under-developed character for what they were without trying to explain them away. It wasn't perfect. Or if every now and then there'd be some bad acting (*coughkendracough*) I'd say 'wow that's some bad acting'. That's what I do with everything I watch. It's just that with Smallville I have to do that several times in almost every scene.

And if I still liked Smallville on the whole, or the idea, or something in there appealed to me somehow, I'd still watch it and enjoy it. As I said, I've watched crap and liked it but I still see it for what it is. But (and this is where the taste comes in) I don't have anything that appeals enough to me in Smallville. So all there is for me is the bad stuff.

That is a perfectly valid viewpoint to have. It's just you know, every thread related to Smallville, the same old bitching. It gets frustrating after a while. But that (I guess) is the nature of message boards.

Yeah I could see that and I could understand the frustration even better if this was a Smallville board. Hell that would make me a troll! But this is Whedonesque, not Smallvillesque so I still don't really see the problem with people stating their honest opinion on a show they watched.

My guess is that one reason Smallville elicits such repeated criticism when it pops up (for a James appearance, or a Joss-verse writer) is that it's the kind of show that many here wanted to like, and had high hopes for.

That's very well put acp. And definitely true for me as well.

[ edited by EdDantes on 2005-11-16 18:38 ]
Rogue, I've got to disagree here:

On the other hand, its continued success feels like another nail in the coffin of what I consider quality(Joss perhaps...) programs.

and how is that? Reality TV is killing television, not shows like SMALLVILLE that dare to do something a bit unusual and pays a large ensemble cast.
and how is that? Reality TV is killing television, not shows like SMALLVILLE that dare to do something a bit unusual and pays a large ensemble cast.

Well, I can't disagree about reality tv, but in my opinion Smallville has terrible acting, writing, storylines, etc, yet it is very popular. So the more popular lower quality stuff like that is, the less chance the good stuff has. And again, it's my opinion, because I know you think Smallville is quality, so it's just one of those areas we'll have to disagree!
But this is Whedonesque, not Smallvillesque so I still don't really see the problem with people stating their honest opinion on a show they watched.

I don't see a problem with it either :-)

I do see a problem with the exact same posts being made on every thread related to the subject because it gets frustrating and boring. But as I said, this is probably going to happen because it it a mesaage board.

I know you don't like the show. Saying it over and over again doesn't kill me, it just bores me. But no doubt at all that you are entitled to say it :-)
At least non-Smallville boards, because I assume there's not a lot of bitching at the fansites.


I did once see a very long thread at a Smallville forum about whether Joss Whedon should take over the show.
Boy, it does seem to get hot whenever a thread is about JM. People have been disagreeing about Smallville since long before JM started guesting, but now all of a sudden it seems personal.

People in fandom are by definition passionate about their entertainment. It seems like folks here are getting a little defensive when it comes to criticism about things JM is involved with even when JM himself is not being criticized. 'Course that is just my opinion.

Is it that other people finding fault with the vehicle takes some of the pleasure out of it for some others? Very possibly. On the other hand being able to vent about something that really bothers you also can help keep you from exploding out of sheer frustration.

The funny thing is, everybody on the last couple JM threads sounds as though they like and respect JM's work and want him to succeed. If everybody starts taking it personally when people say they don't like the projects he is doing, the folks who want him to fail (I've never have understood that.) won't have to lift a finger to make his fans look silly.

...And BTW, my opinion of Smallville hasn't changed. Don't love it. Don't hate it. I'm watching it for the first time to see JM and don't mind missing it when he isn't on. When he is on, I don't pull my hair out during the scenes he isn't in. My guess is that that would be my reaction to a lot of shows on TV if JM did a guest shot. I get passionate about shows I love and don't care much about the rest unless there is something truly objectionable about the message or it is pandering to the worst in human nature. Like most of reality TV for instance.
I know you don't like the show. Saying it over and over again doesn't kill me, it just bores me. But no doubt at all that you are entitled to say it :-)

I know you do like the show. Saying it over and over again doesn't kill me, it just bores me :-)

And for the record, my last post was mainly trying to clarify some misunderstandings and false assumptions some people made about my earlier posts that apparently hadn't been read very well. I don't enjoy it when people put words in my mouth. (Hell, I'm still trying to find where I said anything about any show's 'fandom')

But I guess I'll take that gun away from your head and stop forcing you to read all my posts and making you renounce Smallville. I guess that was a little mean of me;-)

Boy, it does seem to get hot whenever a thread is about JM. People have been disagreeing about Smallville since long before JM started guesting, but now all of a sudden it seems personal.

Yeah, you noticed that too, have you?;-)
I know you do like the show. Saying it over and over again doesn't kill me, it just bores me :-)

I haven't said it over and over again.

Thank you for the clarification though, although I also can't see where anyone said you were saying anything about anyones fandom?

But hey, defending yourself from non-existent accusations is fun amd fannish :-) Like Smallville, in a way.
It appears that James, Joss Whedon and SMG are the hot buttons in our fandom.

Maybe I can make it more understandable by mentioning the critics who didn't love SERENITY? Not everyone can have the same taste, as you say, but it doesn't mean that we aren't going to speak up and disagree. (sometimes vehemently).

That said, I don't think SMALLVILLE is anywhere near Buffy, (Nothing is) but I also don't think it's destroying television either.

Also, James is quite entertaining in it and I think almost all of us agree with that.
Oh, I always did like SMG. Isn't she in a film due out shortly? It seems I heard about that a while ago, I hope it didn't get released and I missed it.
vanity, Not that you were asking me, but the most obvious example of the insulting Smallville fandom thing is,

"As Buffy fans we don't do ourselves any favours by dismissing the shows that other people love as being inferior , because that implies that their fandoms are inferior ."
debw | November 16, 14:59 CET


There are less obvious ones as well.

Oh and spikeylover, I don't think you are doing us justice. It seems like we have lots more hot buttons than that. ;-) Charisma, a certain controversial event in Serenity, whwther Angel (the show) gets proper respect, every ship... But yeah, those three do seem to be the touch point that can make the others flare up, so...oh well I guess I have to agree with you after all. :-)

[ edited by newcj on 2005-11-16 19:58 ]
Oh, thanks. I didn't connect that to EdDantes in any way, which is why I said that. As Buffy fans, we didn't seem like a personal attack to me.

It seems people are overly defensive about being entitled to their opinions. Personally I like opinions :-)

eta: Was the film called South Lands?

[ edited by vanity on 2005-11-16 19:53 ]
Vanity, You're thinking of Southland Tales, which comes out next year. SMG is involved in a few upcoming projects right now. There's a list of them at IMDB here and a recent Whedonesque thread about some of the others here.
Hope that helps!
I did indeed say


"As Buffy fans we don't do ourselves any favours by dismissing the shows that other people love as being inferior , because that implies that their fandoms are inferior ."

And though in hindsight I may have added a few more qualifying words I stand by my statement . People are passionate about their show, in the same way that many of you were passionate about the BDM . (I seem to remember critics who didn't give 100% praise for the BDM being ripped to shreds both here and on their own forums.) Criticism of the film was certainly seen as criticism of Joss and the Browncoats. And criticism of The Browncoats met with furious reactions. Fandoms are sensitive places.

See it's one thing to say " I don't enjoy the show.. because" And that's what many posters here have done. others have said
" Sorry, I like James but I can't get on with the show so I won't be watching"

That's fair enough.

But In my opinion it's quite another thing to say
(and I paraphrase) " The show sucks but I suppose I have to suffer through it just to see James ,and I hope James doesn't get a regular role because then I have to endure more of this tripe"

My point is , as it was with those who hated certain seasons of Buffy , that if you aren't enjoying it switch off and put your DVDs on.

James will have other roles that you may enjoy more, Why not wait for those?

I'm not attacking anyone in particular just commenting on a certain tone and nuance which seemed to be in some posts and which I accept may have been unintentional.

So, If I've caused offence I apologise .

Meanwhile *woot* Smallville tomorrow!

[ edited by debw on 2005-11-16 20:12 ]
I try not to get into this stuff, but sometimes my fairness gene won't let me stop.

"It seems people are overly defensive about being entitled to their opinions."

I would change that to, "It seems people are overly defensive about other people's opinions." The fact is that comments have been made toward the people and the motives of people who expressed dislike of Smallville on this thread rather than simply disagreeing with them. I assume those that like Smallville did not take the comment "As Buffy fans we don't do ourselves any favours by dismissing the shows that other people love as being inferior , because that implies that their fandoms are inferior ."personally because they had not just said something negative about Smallville. It was, therefore not aimed at them. Ed on the other hand had, so it made perfect sense that he would assume it was aimed at him.

The comments on this thread are very much like the comments made towards the people on the recent Shadow Puppets thread where people seemed to be annoyed that others were analysing what kind of a movie it might be and whether they liked the premise. In neither of these discussions did I agree fully with either side, but it has been clear that there were people who did not want to hear anything said about a JM project that could be interpretted as negative, and willing to make comments about the poster in response. Thanks to the rules of this board they have been subtle, but that does not mean they are not there.

Debw, My memory is that people separated out stories that picked on the fandom from reviews that did not like the movie. When people would start heaping abuse on a reviewer for not liking the movie others stepped in to remind everyone to discuss the review, not the reviewer. On the other hand, when they were saying nasty things about the Browncoats or "Kool-Aid drinkers" who like anything Joss, more people got a lot more enraged...and rightfully so IMO. Someone not liking the movie was not taken as an insult to the Browncoats, and no one has said anything negative about any other fandom here.
But In my opinion it's quite another thing to say
(and I paraphrase) " The show sucks but I suppose I have to suffer through it just to see James ,and I hope James doesn't get a regular role because then I have to endure more of this tripe"

My point is , as it was with those who hated certain seasons of Buffy , that if you aren't enjoying it switch off and put your DVDs on.

James will have other roles that you may enjoy more, Why not wait for those?


I can certainly qualify my 'I dislike Smallville but will watch the crap for James' with my reasons for disliking Smallville, but I think my hubby has covered them all. He's far more eloquent than I am in that respect. And I'm sorry that my sentiment somehow offends people, I didn't realize my opinion was so important. I certainly wouldn't go to a Smallville board and say it though, but since this is Whedonesque I feel my opinions, however heated, are allowed.

I have no guarantees that James will have other roles that I'll love, so I'll take what I can get. I'm sorry that my desperation upsets people. And James IS good in Smallville. So why wouldn't I watch James doing what he's good at?
JM is indeed the new SMG (hot button-wise. Ooh, missus).

I will say that opinions have been exchanged here in a cool and restrained manner - kudos to all. I will also say that, this being Whedonesque, more leeway is inevitably given to those criticizing non-Whedon projects than to those criticizing Whedon projects, such as Serenity, because our common interest and concern here is Joss, not [insert other project, e.g. Smallville, The Grudge et al, here].

As always, those who don't like a certain actor or writer can stay away from threads devoted to those individuals. The interesting thing is this thread, it seems to me, is that all the comments are made by big fans of James M, but their conclusions are very different. Some JM fans love that he's on the show and want to talk about that; some don't, and want to talk about why/how he could be doing "better things." Seems like a reasonable discussion topic - and it has been.
"JM is indeed the new SMG..."

I wonder how JM and SMG would react to that statement. (lol)

Oh the pictures that came to mind when I read that...not pleasant really. ;-)
acp, thank you :-)

Well, Smallville certainly generates talk! that's what I always used to love about Joss shows. That and the cool actors :-)
newcj The same thing about negative comments can be applied to threads about Serenity. I know that I read posters who were extremely forceful when faced with even the mildest criticism. Takes all sorts doesn't it.



"Boy, it does seem to get hot whenever a thread is about JM. People have been disagreeing about Smallville since long before JM started guesting, but now all of a sudden it seems personal.

Yeah, you noticed that too, have you?;-)
EdDantes | November 16, 19:04 CET"

Yes, I've noticed it also. The thing that I notice is that some JM fans come out at every opportunity and never say anything even remotely positive.

So someone doesn't like SV, or the look of SP, or The Mountain or whatever. Fine. Good for you. Pass comment, more power to you. But it just seems odd that never is a comment made that the guy is actively employed, that he's sought out by people, that the people in the know seem to love him. Anything. Nope, it's all doom and gloom. Why can't he do this, why can't he do that? He gets more negativity from his own fans than the people who openly say they hate him. I cannnot think of any other actor who gets as much strife as he does from his own fans.

As has been said previously, it's boring to read the same sorts of posts from the same posters over and over again.



"It's just you know, every thread related to Smallville, the same old bitching. It gets frustrating after a while.

I feel the same way about the constant praising! :~P"

RS Er....what? *is confused*

Do you mean SV fans liking their show and saying so? Or JM fans liking what he's doing?

Besides I think you'll find more SV viewers here like me, who are watching for JM and being pleasantly suprised that they are enjoying the show, than hardcore SV fans.

Erm...any reason why we shouldn't praise JM if we like what he's doing? He's no genius like Joss of course, but he is actually quite good at the old acting thing.
Um, go James? :)

"Besides I think you'll find more SV viewers here like me, who are watching for JM and being pleasantly suprised that they are enjoying the show, than hardcore SV fans."

Count me in as pleasantly surprised. I wasn't too sure I'd enjoy it when I started watching it this season, as I've tried it several times in years past without any success. This time around, I am enjoying it regardless of any weaknesses and regardless of whether JM is in an ep or not. Beats reality TV anyday (in my book, anyway).

Wouldn't it be ironic if after this long and obviously heartfelt thread, that Kristin pulled one of her not unheard of maneuvers and was totally wrong? ;)

[ edited by Grace on 2005-11-16 21:39 ]
Erm...any reason why we shouldn't praise JM if we like what he's doing?

None at all. I praise JM quite often too. He IS a genius in acting. But there's also no reason I(or anyone else) shouldn't state my opinion about his projects.

But it just seems odd that never is a comment made that the guy is actively employed, that he's sought out by people, that the people in the know seem to love him. Anything. Nope, it's all doom and gloom.

Well, I'm not sure who you're referring to, but for myself, I generally praise James as an actor, and I even said that Smallville would be smart to sign him as a regular. As a matter of fact, my first post in this thread mentioned that I'm glad he's working. My complaints are only about the show he's on. Not him, and not his fans. As for the doom and gloom...maybe you're referring to the ratings issues people have brought up? To my knowledge, Smallville is doing well, which I've also mentioned.

As has been said previously, it's boring to read the same sorts of posts from the same posters over and over again.



Couldn't agree more, I'm sure casual readers are probably tired of all of us going back and forth. As are we involved, I'm sure. So I'm done here. Nothing to be settled, we can all just agree to disagree. I've learned after being married a few years that I don't always need the last word, so if someone wants to respond, please don't take offense if I refrain. I mean, unless you talk smack 'bout my momma, then I'll probably just chime in to agree...

I can take comfort in the fact that at least we all agree about James being a great actor, and leave it at that!

Wouldn't it be ironic if after this long and obviously heartfelt thread, that Kristin pulled one of her not unheard of maneuvers and was totally wrong? ;)


What? Wrongda be wrong? Nevah happen! :~P
Well obviously I didn't mean you. You are always so complimentary to him and your criticism is always constructive.

Never said no-one couldn't say their piece.

Ratings? Nope, not refering to them. The incorrect information has been more than expertly handled.

I'm not tired. But of course there's nothing to be settled, this is just a forum for an exchange of opinions. And I wont be offended, if you're done you're done, and you wont even be reading this thread again anyhoo.
Well, as Newcj pointed out it was strongly suggested several times that merely having criticism, of simply not liking a show automatically insults that show's fans. So since I criticized SV it was indirectly accusing me of doing just that. Just because my name wasn't mentioned doesn't change that. As soon as I write "Everyone who likes Smallville is a moron" then people can take offense.

Not everyone will like a show and people have different opinions. I have no problem with people liking SV, and I just don't really understand why a lot of people get upset when I say that I don't, even when I try to explain exactly why (instead of just calling it names or something which happens on plenty other boards). And everyone still has the same opinion on most topics as last week, so it's to be expected the same conversations pop up in similar threads. We all give your own same opinion again and again, and we really shouldn't complain when others do the same.

As for James, I too have never said anything but positive things about his talent and his acting so I'm gonna assume I'm not one of the people referred to. As for his career choices, I'll never say what he 'should' or 'shouldn't' do. I'd love to see him as Spike at least one more time, (if not, too bad) and for the rest I hope he gets good projects. I hoped I would like Cool Money and I didn't. I hoped I would enjoy SV and I don't. As I said, I do really like how they've decided to play Brainiac and what James does with it, but it's just not enough for me to like the rest of the show, which is my misfortune. Too bad. I hope I will enjoy that upcoming horror flic he was talking about. I really do prefer to like stuff.

I like the Buffy/Angel actors. Doesn't mean I have to like everything they're going to be in for the rest of their lives. I liked the Grudge. I didn't care for Eurotrip. I hope I'll enjoy Southland Tales. I'm not crazy about Bones but it's not bad. Etc. Etc. I just take it as it comes.
"As soon as I write "Everyone who likes Smallville is a moron" then people can take offense."

People will take offence to what people take offence to. They don't need permission, and I guess it can happen that folk don't understand why something they have said is offensive to others. But that doesn't mean that it isn't. You know.
OK, the discussion has become circular and counter-productive. Not that I'm telling anyone to quit it (if you're loving it that much . . .), but really, no one is changing anyone's mind at this point. When we get into repeated clarifications of perceived slights contained in explanations of previous posts then I think we're in [insert board name here], and we probably should all give up and go have a ciggie and a cup of tea.
Could I have coffee instead and could you please not talk about ciggies? I'm trying to give up!

Other than that I totally agree with you.

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