Whedonesque : Comments on 8940 : Why Tim Minear would do the Spike movie justice.

Damn, you beat me to it! I just noticed this myself over at SyFy Portal and was about to post it. Needless to say i have to agree with the writer's opinions. Tim really would do a great job with the Spike movie. Let's hope he gets the chance to prove it.

Just one thing. You would think someone who is obviously such a massive fan of Whedon's worlds would know how to spell the names of the characters that inhabit them. Ilyeria?

Buffysmglover | December 11, 03:39 CET

Cool, just wish we could here something new on this, something oficial, something along the lines of "we realised there was far too much story for a TV movie and commissioned it for seven seasons, with a clause that if we cancel it the person who ultimately made that decision dies, or (if thats a little extreme) put in stocks outside the studio for fans of the show to come and throw rotten fruit at".

Spike, with Faith, or Illyria, or both, and set post-Angel is what I really want to see, but I'm convinced that it'll be awesome whatever it is. Even if most of the movie is just Faith driving a car for 80 minutes, eventually arriving in the alley, climbing over loads of bodies and finding those of Angel's Avengers, poking them with a stick, then walking out muttering, "yep, dead".

Illyria isn't the easiest name to spell if you don't know how, not quite sure how he came to that spelling though, and twice, so it weren't a typo.

Ghost Spike | December 11, 03:51 CET

Spike, with Faith, or Illyria, or both, and set post-Angel is what I really want to see

Though Spike had great chemistry with both, Illyria would be the most interesting companion; Faith's arc seems to have brought her to a good place, whereas Sweet Madame Blue is still wayward bound.

Ubqtous | December 11, 05:27 CET

The author is credited as being editor and journalist, yet someone with those credentials didn't bother to do enough research on the web to figure out how to spell Illyria? It may not be an easy name to spell, but its certainly easy to find out. Also, while I love Tim Minear, I'm not sure how the author came to the conclusion that he has intimate knowledge about Spike. I did a quick look over at IMDB and it looks like Tim's never done any writing or directing for Spike. I think Minear is capable of doing an excellent job and agree that he is probably the next best thing to having Joss himself write it, but its certainly not intimate familiarity with the character that qualifies him for the task.

[ edited by killinj on 2005-12-11 04:23 ]

killinj | December 11, 06:22 CET

And no mention of X-Files, Lois and Clark, Wonderfalls or The Inside? I would have preferred a bit more research to make a stronger case. I do believe that Tim will do a fabulous job if this project ever actually happens.

TamaraC | December 11, 06:49 CET

Hey, I didn't know Tim wrote on Lois and Clark. I was kind of interested in seeing that but now that I know he was involved, I'll definitely have to rent the DVDs.

electricspacegirl | December 11, 08:09 CET

Hey, I didn't know Tim wrote on Lois and Clark. I was kind of interested in seeing that but now that I know he was involved, I'll definitely have to rent the DVDs.

Just try to avoid anything in the later seasons because dear lord- the bad.

nna_funk | December 11, 08:30 CET

Actually, anything Lois & Clark is pretty damn bad, though I must admit I did not know that Tim wrote on it.

And, yes, is Tim is a great choice for the supposed Spike movie, the second-best to Joss himself. I really, really hope that this all comes to fruition.

Because after I manage to exhaust all of the special features on the Serenity DVD--as well as those on the Buffy, Angel, and Firefly DVDs, as I kinda sorta haven't watched most of them--I'll need some more Whedonverse, damn it!

UnpluggedCrazy | December 11, 11:09 CET

Actually, anything Lois & Clark is pretty damn bad, though I must admit I did not know that Tim wrote on it.

True. But I have to advise if- you are in fact going to watch it, to in the very least avoid the last season, because it was so- so horrible. (yes I watched lois and clark through most of its run- but I was young)

Ditto on the sentiment of needing more Whedonverse as well. I feel so empty- no other tv shows fill the hole!

nna_funk | December 11, 13:06 CET

I love Spike with a strange and unholy passion.

Wonderfalls has been the only other show since Buffy that I thought was any good.

ERgo, I want MInnear to write a Spike movie and I want it NOW!

It's late, I just got home, and I might be a little tipsy.

Xane | December 11, 15:02 CET

I would love a Spike movie! If Joss is reading this, then I have to ask, will there be one? Please give us hope!

Joss rules! | December 11, 17:03 CET

If memory serves Tim only wrote for s4 of Lois & Clark so if you want to see his contribution you can't avoid the last season.
I do also think Tim is the best person for the Spike movie job (and a Serenity sequal, if Joss is too busy). He's my 2nd favourite writer/show runner behind Mr Whedon and I think he'd make something truely wonderfull.

Paul_Rocks | December 11, 19:04 CET

After reading the David Fury interview, I think I would prefer that he write the Spike movie. I'd like someone with some Spike experience to do it. I thought that some of the Angel Season 5 Spike didn't ring very true given his arc on Buffy. But yes, I will take almost anything by anyone.

Lioness | December 11, 19:47 CET

I'd really love a Spike movie and think that actually a combo of TM and DF would be just about perfect.

My one dear wish however would be that it contain no superpowered chicks. Yes, Illyria still has a story to tell. But I want a Spike move to be about oh, I don't know....Spike. ;0)

I'd like an all guy movie with Spike as lead and with Gunn and Xander around too. Xander has so much more story to tell than Faith, and I disagree with those, writers included, who say his story is done. Sorry, but to my mind that just shows a lack of imagination, imo. Gunn had a terrific S5 and I'd love to see where he went from there.

lynnie | December 11, 19:52 CET

I really doubt a network would pick up an all guy movie, they wouldn't know how to market it.

I'd say there's much more left to do with Faith than Xander or Gunn. If any of the gang died in the alley it was probably Gunn, I think he was done.

It would be great to see Xander and Spike forced to work together for whatever reason, and with Xanders attraction to demons it wouldn't be long before he started hitting on Illyria.

Ghost Spike | December 11, 20:05 CET

Yeah, according to Joss the only place Gunn was heading after the alley was straight under the ground so i seriously doubt he will feature in any telemovie that gets the go ahead.

Buffysmglover | December 11, 20:15 CET

See now I kind of think that's sexist. Not you saying it, I don't mean that at all. But the whole concept that it's not marketable to either a male or female or indeed mixed audience is sexist.

I'm a woman and while I love Btvs and Ats and I liked some of the female characters and loved others, I pretty much loved all of the male characters. Why should they be sidelined again.

Supernatural is an all male show and is doing well. So there is a market there.

Anyhoo, I'd rather see Xander flirting with Spike than with Illyria. Then Angel could show up all jealous and they could all wrestle. With oil. ;0)

lynnie | December 11, 20:16 CET

VWAG Joss changes his mind all the time.

lynnie | December 11, 20:17 CET

Hmm, well Joss may have been known to change his mind if given sufficient reason but i'd be hard pressed to come up with a good reason why he would change his mind on this occasion, given the fact that there are so many characters we already know he wants to see developed further whilst Gunn was pretty much done, as far as he was concerned.

I suppose there is a remote possibility but i wouldn't put any money on seeing Gunn again, at least not in anything but a flashback or two.

Buffysmglover | December 11, 20:21 CET

Minear didn't write for Spike (except for Darla, right?) but I will say I think he's one of the great writers of the verse. I can definitely live with him, but I'd love to see some input from someone like Jane Espenson (who from interviews really seemed to get the character and fans of Spike) and of course, Joss.

Although, from AHITW on, I thought they were hitting it out of the ballpark on ATS, I wasn't fond of the earlier take on him. (For example, Spike blurting out loudly about what happened with his mother) I also didn't care for the ATS idea that Spike was stupid, because he certainly wasn't on BTVS.

spikeylover | December 11, 21:02 CET

Regarding Gunn, doesn't Joss have story approval for the Angel comics? Gunn lives in those, so I'd think if Joss was determined that he died he wouldn't approve stories where he survived.

killinj | December 11, 21:48 CET

killinj, please do not tell me that Joss has story approval for the Angel comics. That's just depressing.

UnpluggedCrazy | December 11, 21:52 CET

As far as i'm aware, killinj, Joss doesn't mind in which direction the non-canon storylines go in, providing that his creations are used respectfully. The IDW comics aren't canon and therefore he probably wouldn't care either way if they chose to keep Gunn around or not within that particular story. They are, at best, supposed to be viewed as an alternate reality to the true slayerverse, after all.

Buffysmglover | December 11, 21:54 CET

Well, i really don't know. If Joss can't use Spike,Angel and his gang in the Buffy canon comics then i would consider the IDW comics canon. Since they are both owend by different publishers. I guess it all depends on wether a tvmovie gets made or not. If Spike has a different story in the tvmovie, then the Angel:old friends comics can't be considerd canon. We'll have to wait and see.

[ edited by sethsky on 2005-12-11 22:35 ]

sethsky | December 12, 00:34 CET

Just for information, Tim didn't write for Angel Season 5. He also wrote for season 4 of Lois and Clark, I seem to recall, which was the year it went very much down the pan (they let Teri Hatcher write an episode, hello). I seem to remember Tim saying he wrote an episode where Superman and Lois shagged on the ceiling, but the network wouldn't go for it - todays pointless titbit.

I do wonder if whoever wrote this story actually put any effort in to it for research.

[ edited by gossi on 2005-12-11 22:49 ]

gossi | December 12, 00:48 CET

I seem to remember Tim saying he wrote an episode where Superman and Lois shagged on the ceiling, but the network wouldn't go for it - todays pointless titbit.

Why not, that would have been bloody hilarious.

I'll probably have to go into hiding here after saying that I bought season 1 of Lois & Clark and enjoyed it, might just be 'cos I liked it when I watched it as a kid, still planning on buying the rest though.

Ghost Spike | December 12, 00:53 CET

Spike is best when he's working off other characters. Marsters has great chemistry with EVERYONE in the Buffyverse he's had scenes with alone. The Spike and Illyria pairing (not shippy) was my favorite, but I'm a biased Illyria fan.

electricspacegirl | December 12, 01:03 CET

Spike and Illyria sexage makes sense to me. Make it so, Timmy!

gossi | December 12, 01:07 CET

"Television without Joss Whedon is like popcorn without butter. There's no point."

Could be like THE best quote ever.

Apocalypse | December 12, 01:30 CET

I kinda want Jane Espenson to write Spike also. Tim to direct though. I love Janes angsted up, love sick Spike. Tim's great with funny and pain. So good with the pain.
I just love Jane doing Spike tho.

nixygirl | December 12, 01:37 CET

I have not watched a TV show regularly, or much at all, since Angel went off the air. I've tried all the new favorites (e.g., Lost, VM) but I can't get into them. Something's missing. I used to be a big TV watcher too. Joss Whedon spoiled regular TV for me. Spike movie please.

annieb | December 12, 01:41 CET

Canon, canon - what's considered canon nowadays anyway? Now here's a discussion that never seems settled and always manages to pop up again like boils or warts. I think we could really use a chart, or a graph, maybe even a diorama and a globe - something to help straighten out what to accept as "the official continuation".
Perhaps it's as easy as 'whatever Joss says is canon, just is.'
Now then, let's review:

TV movies? - check
Upcoming Buffy comics? - check (at least the 1st four issues, maybe subsequent issues too)
IDW comics, both serials and one-shots? - no check
the existing Buffy comics? - ummm...maybe some of them (i.e., I don't know - 'splainy?)

Further debate is, of course, always welcome.

gorramit | December 12, 01:49 CET

Sethsky, gorramit pretty much just nailed it with his "whatever Joss says is canon, just is" comment.

The new Buffy comic book series can be considered canon because Joss has said so. The IDW series events have not been confirmed by Joss and therefore are not canon. It isn't good enough to simply say that as long as nothing contradicts them then they can be taken as fact. Canon, very simply, is what Joss declares it to be, and so far that would be the two television shows (and telemovies, should they happen), the Fray series, the upcoming new Buffy comics and possibly (although this is open to debate too) the Tales of the Slayer/Vampire books.

Buffysmglover | December 12, 01:59 CET

I see the Spike TV movie as having some loner-angsty Spike scenes and some scenes where he's paired off with someone, working to fight the good fight. Maybe they (Spike and Illyria) are greeted by an old friend (Giles, Willow, or Xander) or hell, all of them. Who knows? That's kind of how I see it in my mind.

I still want the Willow movie I can sense what it might be like (kind of like a cross between Buffy and Amelie), with lots of visual magic and scored by Thomas Wanker or hell, Chris Beck even. Mmm, Amelie Willow. Make it so!

electricspacegirl | December 12, 02:21 CET

Can someone point me to the interview where Joss stated as fact that Gunn is dead and would never be brought back in any future stories? It seems like Joss has made several comments about the possible futures of characters - none of which are set in stone (in my opinion) until a script is actually written.

killinj | December 12, 03:19 CET

Regarding the interview, i've just had a quick Google and i've not been able to turn it up, although it's a fairly well known one so i'm sure somebody around here will provide a link. Basically Joss was taking part in a Q&A and was asked what he believed happened after the end of Not Fade Away. His answer included the fact that Gunn died.

Now, obviously this is not set in stone, as you say, and this could have been Joss kidding around but given the facts, such as that comment from Joss, that Gunn was seriously wounded and obviously near death at the end of the episode anyway (Illyria seems quite talented at predicting the demise of mortals, lol), about to go into a battle that he would have been incredibly lucky to survive even if he had been fully fit, not to mention that in all the answers Joss has given when asked about who he would like to develop further (Spike, Illyria, Willow, Faith and Giles all being regular candidates) not once has he mentioned Gunn.

So whilst there is still a remote possibility that Gunn both survived the alley and that Joss could use him in a future project, i would have to assume that the odds are extremely slim. Much more likely that Gunn will be the neccessary sacrifice to make the suggested danger of the alley that night seem real, allowing for the survival of Angel, Spike and Illyria.

Buffysmglover | December 12, 03:44 CET

Joss has said at least once that Gunn died, but then he also said in another interview something along the lines of "Gunn dies, Spike gets shanshu, Angel loses an arm, and Xander loses his other eye, which is funny 'cos he isn't even there", so you never know, the mans a joker.

Ghost Spike | December 12, 03:54 CET

VWAG said

It isn't good enough to simply say that as long as nothing contradicts them then they can be taken as fact. Canon, very simply, is what Joss declares it to be...

I'd say these points are not mutually exclusive. At least that's what I understood Joss to mean at the Melbourne Q+A - that people can treat stuff in recent/new comics as canon if they like and that's fine unless/until he wants to do something different in which case what he says goes (or something to that effect - there's a transcript on the SerenityOz board).

purplehazel | December 12, 17:55 CET

Joss is working on his projects. Tim Minear just sold a pilot to Fox. All the non-Spike news makes it seem like the Spike movie is on some kind of perpetual back burner. I am trying not to lose hope. Was I dreaming, or did Joss give some kind of timeline when we should expect to hear something more definitive?

annieb | December 12, 19:13 CET

As always, great comments and why I love visiting Whedonesque to see what's going on and how people are reacting to the latest in Buffyverse.

What does irk me, however, are people nit-picking spellings. It's one thing to say "Hey, they spelled a name wrong." It's another to question someone's credentials because of it. I'm sorry, but that's simply out of line.

Illyria is a difficult name to spell. I'm amazing with spelling, but you know what? Even I struggle with spellings of some names ... including ones that are not common venacular. I edited Sherri's piece, and the name went right by me.

Yes, you're right ... it could've been looked up. Sometimes, those things get missed. But just because someone isn't perfect, doesn't mean that they are not a good journalist. If that is a requirement, then I ask to see a perfect journalist.

I don't mean to rant about this, but come on. It was one word misspelled, and someone I have nothing but absolute respect for -- someone who helped me grow tremendously as a journalist -- has her own credentials attacked because of a misspelling.

Thank you to those who felt there were more important aspects of this piece to talk about than a simple spelling.

I am not sure if I would want to see a Spike movie to be honest. I am not a fan of spinoffs normally, as I feel it cheapens what is a strong franchise. But I am a huge fan of Spike, and I'm getting to the point of wanting to see more Buffyverse in some shape or form ... as long as it's done right.

And I have to totally agree with Sherri that if we can't get Joss, we need Tim ... although if David Fury does become available for a project like this, I wouldn't mind seeing him plugged in.

[ edited by SyFyMichael on 2005-12-12 17:22 ]

SyFyMichael | December 12, 19:20 CET

"I really doubt a network would pick up an all guy movie, they wouldn't know how to market it."

This stopped me in my tracks. Networks love all guy action movies. Networks and studios have always loved all guy action movies. Throw in a 1 dimensional minor character damsel in distress with...obvious physical attributes...and you have their dream come true. I guess if people have forgotten that, Joss is making headway.
:-)

Spelling does get by in the proof reading, especially names. I was surprised nobody said anything about that post last week or the week before where they called JM, James MASTERS.

I have no doubt that if Joss is supervising and the focus is on Spike, that a Spike movie would be very satisfying. I'm all for it.

newcj | December 12, 19:41 CET

SyFyMichael - I think there's bigger problems than that.

Example: Add to that his intimate knowledge of Spike’s persona as he also served as producer on the “Angel” series and the fit is evident.

Problem: Tim never worked on Angel when Spike was used in any significant degree. He appeared for about 2 minutes in one episode when Tim worked on the series. Tim never worked on Buffy, nor did he work on Angel Season 5. Serri seems confused about Tim's involvement in Angel, but she wrote an article about that subject - she's going to get flack.

[ edited by gossi on 2005-12-12 17:48 ]

gossi | December 12, 19:47 CET

"What does irk me, however, are people nit-picking spellings. It's one thing to say "Hey, they spelled a name wrong." It's another to question someone's credentials because of it. I'm sorry, but that's simply out of line."

SyFyMichael I agree, and I'm sorry that you had to read that. It must be wonderful to never make a typo or have something slip through the net. I think most people aren't that perfect though and also have maybe slightly better manners than to mention it. {{{hugs}}}

You're in good company though. Pretty much every time JM's website is updated some people (I'm thinking of a different board so please no-one hear take offense) take great delight in nit-picking the spelling and grammar, rather than taking notice of the content.

Like I mentioned above I would love a Spike movie. But I am a wee bit gunshy and am uncertain as to whether I could cope with what might be a nightmare rather than a dream come true. I liked how the character finished in NFA and I wouldn't want anything that followed to spoil that.

lynnie | December 12, 19:53 CET

Gossi:

Your comments made no sense. I don't see where from your quote (unless I am not seeing the context of your quote) that states Tim Minear and and James Marsters were working on "Angel" at the same time.

I read the quote in context, and if you read the graf before, Sherri (notice I'm not nitpicking the misspelling of HER name) she talked about watching different episodes Minear had been involved with. There was nothing there that implied that he was on the same time as James Marsters. Only that Minear's expansive work on two Buffyverse series shows how he was able to grow along with the Buffyverse.

Sure, we can all take different interpretations and the like ... but once again, you are judging her on YOUR interpretation. I haven't noticed if you actually tried to contact her to get her meaning.

My writers -- even my guest columnists -- are very approachable. If you want to, you can always e-mail me and I can forward something to her. Or, she is quite active on our message boards as of late ... I"m sure if you posted there, she would definitely respond.

And Sherri is the kind of person that if she did make a mistake, or if something wasn't as clear as it could've been, she will freely admit it. There is no need to attack her words on a board like this where she cannot even respond.

SyFyMichael | December 12, 20:24 CET

I respectfully disagree, SyFyMichael - I rather think gossi did make sense with his comment. Like gossi, I don't quite buy Sherri's argument that Tim has an "intimate knowledge of Spike's persona" since, as gossi pointed out, Tim didn't work on AtS while Spike was there nor did Tim have a connection to BtVS. Tim did indeed work on *one* Buffyverse series - Angel - and was a dynamite, driving force there, but he never wrote a word for Spike nor to my (outsider) knowledge did he ever contribute to the development of the Spike character.

To say the above is not to attack Sherri personally, at least that's not my intention. She made some great points in her piece. I adore Tim Minear's work and agree with Sherri that he would be a marvelous choice for writing Spike. I more than trust Spike's voice to Tim. Please oh please, may Tim be available for this should the fates allow it.

phlebotinin | December 12, 21:10 CET

SyFyMichael, There was one post at the beginning that IMO was a bit harsh and mentioned the spelling and challenged credentials and I could see your objections. Gossi though, has a good point concerning content that, again IMO, was not stated in an insulting way. He simply said the author was going to get flack if the facts were not correct. I would add to that that any author is going to get flack on a fan site if the facts are not correct.

From what I read, Gossi interpreted a quote that said that Tim Minear had "intimate knowledge of Spike’s persona and connected that knowlege to his service "as producer on the “Angel” series" as meaning that they worked on the show at the same time. That conclusion makes sense because there is no reason to suppose that everyone who worked on Angel has intimate knowlege of the characters that appeared on BTVS. Tom Lenk, for instance has said how strange it was for the folks at Angel, who did not really know Andrew, or TL, to have him show up with this character and this way of working that they were not used to.

This kind of thing does not seem like something that we should need to write to the editor or author of the piece to clarify. To be blunt, the words of an article should be clear when first read. I am not saying that this author's words are not clear, they actually seemed quite clear, but it seemed like you were saying that.

I think TM is a good choice, but I have to disagree that he is an obvious choice who has intimate knowledge of the character. As others have said and according to the rather lame research I did when this first came up, he has never written more than a few lines for Spike in a flashback way back in season...2?...was it. That is the one thing that makes me nervous, and I seem to have some company. TM seems extremely talented. It would just be nice if there was an something somewhere that showed his take on the character and that he knew Spike's voice. It is too bad that was not addressed in the article.

Ok. This took a while to write and now phlebotinin said pretty much the same thing. A day late and a dollar short again...
;-)

[ edited by newcj on 2005-12-12 19:43 ]

newcj | December 12, 21:27 CET

To be clear, I think Tim is an excellent choice for this project. I adore Tim's work - his writing speaks volumes to me, like nothing else I've seen.

See, I've no intentions on following that article up in terms of email (because I simply don't think it's that much of an issue), nor do I think I'm attacking the author. My interpretation - which I've every right to hold - is the article author thinks Tim is best placed (in part) to write a Spike project as they think Tim has an intimate knowledge of Spike. Since the article, you know, says that. I'd disagree - I think Tim has an intimate knowledge of Spike from Joss, but it's not a character he's written before to my knowledge -- there is a strong argument, developmentally, somebody like Fury would be better placed to develop a Spike project as he's written for the character, worked on the writing staff with that character etc.

However, I'd choose Tim over Fury - because I'm a great big Tim Minear fan boy. Wooping, huge fan boy. Less with the weight, more with the squee'ing.

gossi | December 12, 21:42 CET

Woah, woah, woah! I'm assuming that the comment in question about the spelling of Illyria would be mine, correct? Well, firstly, to lynnie, i'd be the last to say that making a typo is a major issue. I make way too many of them myself to even suggest that.

Secondly though, and more importantly, in reply to SyFyMichael, i never once questioned the credentials of the author of the article, nor would i presume to do so. In fact, if you were to go back and reread my initial post you would see that i said that she was obviously a massive fan of Joss and therefore i was surprised that she was unaware of the spelling of the name of one of the main characters. That is far from the same thing as you seemed to suggest.

In truth though, as you said, Illyria is clearly a difficult name to spell and not one that you could really just assume you were getting right, unless you already knew it. Given the fact that there are countless sources of information for Angel on the internet alone, it might have been prudent for Sherri to at least check that the spelling was correct, if she was not certain. I don't feel that that is an unfair comment to make.

However, i will apologise for not making my original meaning clearer and hope this clears up your misunderstanding.

EDIT: And having now noticed killinj's comment (which i had somehow managed to miss twice on reading this thread through) and guessed that it may not have been my own comment that caused the issue, i realise that at least some of what i have just said is irrelevant, however i'll leave it as it is, for the most part, as i think the general point is fair.

[ edited by Vampire With A Gun on 2005-12-12 21:03 ]

Buffysmglover | December 12, 22:52 CET

I assume the comment SyFyMichael is referring to is mine. It was not a personal attack on the author or her credentials. I stand by my statement that as both a journalist and editor I would expect the quality of the research to be better. It is a fair criticism and it is the type of criticism that comes with the job. Also, my comment wasn't merely about spelling, but the fact that Tim Minear did not work on the character of Spike and therefore would not have "intimate knowledge of Spike’s persona" as the author contends. Something she should have known since she already went into detail about how she went back and watched all of Tim's episodes. One would think she would have noticed that Spike wasn't in them.

killinj | December 12, 23:49 CET

Tim Minear served as a consulting producer on "Angel" during its entire run. Now yes, that could mean that he simply received a check from the show for whatever reasons, or it could actually mean that he actually was consulting. I don't know the answer to that, and people here might be able to talk about that actual involvement far more than I.

Vampire with a Gun ... I'm sorry. I didn't mean for you to believe that I was responding to you. I wasn't, as you found out, but I am sorry that you felt it was directed at you.

Killinj ... when you become a journalist, we'll talk. I'm sorry, but many of us who put our real names out there, who work hard to maintain our credibility, have very thick skin -- but we do take exception when people question our credentials. I mean, God forbid someone got something wrong.

If you wish to disagree with some of Sherri's points, that's fine. She didn't do the column to earn extra money (we don't pay for columns). She did it because she was a fan and she wanted to express herself. Just as people do here.

How involved or not Tim Minear was in "Angel" or in Buffy or whatever ... that's a great discussion here. I think it's one I would like to talk about more because to be honest, "consulting producer" can mean many different things, and many different levels of involvement, just as the "executive producer" title also suggests.

And yes, killinj, it is an attack. When you reach perfection, then you can sit judgment over everyone else. Otherwise, I'm done talking to you.

SyFyMichael | December 13, 00:40 CET

OK, time to call a halt to the, now heated, sub-discussion regarding journalistic credentials. If the folks involved would like to continue off-board, that's up to them - but no more here please.

SoddingNancyTribe | December 13, 01:01 CET

Things seem to be getting a little out of hand here. We should stick to the topic which was 'Tim working on the Spike movie' and avoid making comments about other posters. If anyone has any problems, please do email Whedonesque.

Ah SoddingNancyTribe got in before me. Good stuff.

[ edited by Simon on 2005-12-12 23:05 ]

Simon | December 13, 01:04 CET

SyFyMichael, thank you for the apology but it was totally unnecessary. As you saw for yourself, i had already figured out that it was my misunderstanding, rather than yours. The only reason i chose to leave the post as written was so that i could clarify my original, poorly presented comment. Again, the mistake was mine. Think nothing more of it.

Buffysmglover | December 13, 01:09 CET

Does anyone know what exactly Tim Minear's capacity was as a consulting producer?

I honestly don't, and hoping to figure it out. I know that in "Battlestar Galactica," Glen A. Larson is giving a "consulting producer" credit, but it means really nothing more than he gets a take of the residuals. For some reason, he doesn't get a "based on ..." credit, and this might be the next best thing.

But I am trying to think offhand where "consulting producer" was more active, where they did actually consult. It might be out there, and hell, Tim Minear may be one of them.

Titles and such have weird definitions, especially in Hollywood. I think it's safe to say that Joss Whedon was a very active executive producer. But just because one has the executive producer title doesn't mean they are active at all. In the final years of his life, Gene Roddenberry had the "executive producer" title for "Star Trek: The Next Generation." But he really wasn't involved at all. Probably less involved than Glen Larson is with BSG.

SyFyMichael | December 13, 03:07 CET

Tim Minear served as a consulting producer on "Angel" during its entire run.

Picky correction: Tim was co-executive producer on Angel. When he left to do Firefly, he was a consulting producer.

It's just an enormous difference between consulting producer and co exec.

Allyson | December 13, 03:36 CET

I'm sorry, but many of us who put our real names out there, who work hard to maintain our credibility, have very thick skin -- but we do take exception when people question our credentials.

I didn't question her credentials. I accepted as fact that she's a journalist and editor. I don't doubt for a moment that she's good at her job. On this particular article, I thought she could have done a little better research. Nobody is perfect. I don't expect perfection. It's just when I read something from a respected professional I hold them to a higher standard than I would the average person. It was a good article and even with those minor flaws she presented a good case and I ultimately agreed with her that Tim Minear is a great choice for a Spike movie. The credibility of her work (the quality, capability, or power to elicit belief) is absolutely intact.

killinj | December 13, 03:59 CET

My apologies SNT and Simon, I didn't see your comments until after I'd already posted.

killinj | December 13, 03:59 CET

No harm done, kj. Let's put the matter to rest now. :)

SoddingNancyTribe | December 13, 04:01 CET

And he never worked on Buffy. At all.

My understanding is that as a consulting, Tim was present to help arc the beginning of the season, but I could have forgotten how much.

As Co-Exec, he was responsible for just about everything with Joss and Greenwalt. Breaking stories, writing a lot of episodes, and managing the writers' room, as well as directing and day to day business.

You could just go to his imdb entry to see all the episode credits.

Allyson | December 13, 04:03 CET

Was Tim a consulting producer on Season 5? (I did try IMDB for this one, but drew a blank).

[ edited by gossi on 2005-12-13 02:22 ]

gossi | December 13, 04:22 CET

Angel
Consulting Producer 2003-2004
Executive Producer 2002-2003
Co-Executive Producer 2001-2002
Supervising Producer 2000-2001
Producer 1999-2000

From TimMinear.net

And now I'm done being the Tim know-it-all. It's creepy, yeah?

Allyson | December 13, 04:29 CET

Ah, thanks Allyson. I like to think we're all creepy in our own way. (Or that's my excuse, anyway).

I didn't realise Tim had any involvement with season 5 (other than initially breaking the arc ideas back at the end of season 4). I'm a rubbish fan boy.

gossi | December 13, 04:33 CET

The writer of the article emailed Whedonesque and this is what she had to say:

Hello everyone,

You're absolutely right. I flubbed up the spelling of Illyria - big time! The crazy thing is that I did look it up and then spelled it wrong anyway. That's my bad and yet another example of just how human I am. The older I get it seems the more reminders of this there are!

On my understanding of Minear's background, I took it from his extensive work on "Angel" - all five seasons. Yes, in season five he only served as "consulting producer," but considering how well he wrote for the characters when he did write, I made the assumption he probably followed the show's happenings pretty darn well even during his "consulting years." "Intimate" may have been too strong a word, but based on what I've seen about the choices Joss makes on writers to write in his worlds, I assumed again that Tim would have to have (or obtain) an intimate knowledge of the character to do a movie about Spike justice in Joss' mind.

If folks want to disagree with my conclusions, that's cool. The column was my opinion - each of you are entitled to your own, too. No biggie. At least we all agree something, anything should be done to keep the Buffyverse alive :)

Sherri Lonon
Journalist, editor and flubber upper of Illyria's name :)

Simon | December 13, 17:03 CET

Hehe, "flubber upper"! :)

That was cool of Sherri to actually bother to respond directly to the comments made. Couldn't agree more about keeping the Buffyverse alive by any means possible.

Anyway, no hard feelings, i hope. Especially as, regardless of whether my comment was the one that was seen as offensive, i was technically the first to mention the spelling. It was meant as a passing comment rather than the cause of a long winded debate. Again, apologies to Sherri for that.

Buffysmglover | December 13, 18:16 CET

I flubber up all the time. Sorry if my initial comments came across in a way that I did not intend - certainly weren't intended the way they were recieved by SyFyMichael. My flubber ups often involved something I refer to as foot-in-mouth disease.

killinj | December 13, 19:44 CET

Didn't someone say opinions are the spice of life? No, I guess not, but they should have. ;-)

newcj | December 13, 21:19 CET

I suffer from foot-in-mouth disease more than I would like to admit, too. =P

I just hope if they do a Spike movie, they do it right.

What am I saying? This is Joss Whedon. Of course it will be done right. =P

SyFyMichael | December 13, 21:54 CET

December 11 2005