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January 20 2006

The Top Twelve Slashiest Couples in SciFi/Fantasy Fandom. Find out which of our guys from Buffy and Firefly made the list (this thread contains adult themes).

Ridiculous concept. Fan fiction is all well and good, but this is just moronic.
And I think they've read a little too much into the 'Well there was that one time...' comment.
Umm yeah, I don't think "Well there was that one time..." necessarily translates into "they had intercourse". Assume much?
Agreed. At first I thought I must've missed an episode of Buffy or Angel (which is, well, impossible). Only then did it hit me they were probably taking about the "Well there was that one time..." comment.
Well, in the DVD commentary (I think for that episode), Joss said something like "You know, they're two open minded guys. I'm sure at some point they decided to give it a try." Unfortunately, a Google search isn't turning up the exact quote, but I thought it was pretty clear that they were supposed to have had a sexual encounter at one point.
You don't have to read fanfic to appreciate slash. Joss put those references in there on purpose with a wink and a nod for us to enjoy and enjoy I did!
Joss wasn't saying it happened, he was saying "who knows?" (and largely kidding). Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with slash. It's only fanfic, let people's imaginations take them where they may.
Thinking back on it, it seems quite likely that in all their years of vampiring around together, with Dru and Darla, that something might well have happened. The fact that it would have gone against the morals of the day would make it more interesting for them.
That and I'm sure once a person is turned into a vampire, they would lose most if not all of their human inhibitions etc.
I took the references as something may have happened between them but, I just don't imagine them going "all the way". Of course, I could be wrong. It is open to interpretation. :)
They had the "except that one....." comment in PP. It's canon folks. Sorry if you don't like it, but to have it confirmed like that makes it so. It doesn't have to be shown on screen.

In fact, Spangels are easily pleased. We were extremely happy with just having it confirmed on screen and becoming canon.

JW's commentaries have said that of course they did it, they were (his words) "all kinds of deviant" and did people really think they never did. He even said that Spike was Angel's engenue (I've spelt that wrong, sos.) and that they finally found the right girl for Angel, Spike.

Spangel rocks. ;0)
I figure it was all a big four vampire orgy.
I can't read the article, ign is blocked at work. Who is the they we are speaking of?
Well at number 11.

Simon/Mal or Jayne (Firefly/Serenity)
Even though Mal loves Inara, even though Simon loves Kaylee, and even though Jayne loves his grenades, slashers still manage to get boys together. The adorable little doc Simon seems to be evenly paired between Mal and Jayne (the man-skank!), so it’s really hard to pick one over the other. If you were Simon, why would you want to?

And at number 3.

Angel/Spike (Buffy: The Vampire Slayer/Angel)
Opposite personalities? Check. Bitter rivals? Check. Feuding over a similar lover? Double check. High school angst? Triple check. What makes this couplet far more interesting than the ones lower on the list, is that even though Angel and Spike are bitter enemies, they still are almost always on the same side. Whether it’s season 2 of Buffy or season 5 of Angel, they always manage to join together for a gay ol’ time. These two would have been the best of friends if not for Drusilla or Buffy. And, the interesting thing about this couple—they’re the only one on the list to (canonically) have intercourse with one another.

There is NO way that Spike and Angel are supposed to have had actual intercourse. Gimme a break. Someone above mentioned a Vampire orgy with Darla and Dru, that make sense. Maybe some hands went to wierd places. I mean really, the way they feel about each other there is no way they would do that. Thier charactors are not written that way at all. To suggest that is cannon that they went all the way to intercourse?? Thats seems a little overboard. There is nothing to back that up, so how is it cannon?
Wasn't "The Immortal" the only one to have Darla and Dru concurrently? Also, Spike was awfully upset when Angel was messing around with Dru. While orgies(?) might be a big part of the vamp lifestyle. I just think these 4 had too many issues with each other. Especially, Spike and Angel.
Ah, now I see the uproar. I'm not entirely sure it's cannon either. It's a possibility I suppose. There was a period imediately after they were turned when they didn't hate each other, but it was never implicitly stated as such.

I find it odd that IGN of all places has an article about this.
I love the belief that it's not real sex/doesn't count unless it's penetrative intercourse.

This was just a bit of fun, and it would be nice if people could be relaxed enough about sexuality to take it that way. So to speak.

I'd better go now, before I start making jokes about sticks up bums. ;)
Man, how are Clark and Lex only at No. 5 ? Forget fan-fic, I think the show itself is written/played as slash sometimes. I remember one ep. where Clark discovers that Lex, wealthy international playboy that he is, has had one night stands in the past (colour me astonished ;). The actors seemed to have great fun playing it as a jealous lover's tiff.

Re: Spike/Angel. From the few hints in the shows, I think it's fairly clear they had some kind of intimate encounter tho' whether they went all the way or not is pretty hard to tell (the over-enthusiastic orgy explanation seems plausible). Don't really see it being a big deal anyway, vampirism and alternative sexual practices seem to go fairly hand in hand to me.
I see the fascination with slash, but I don't really get it. To me, these guys are, ultimately, heroes. The heroes don't bugger each other in my world. Funny too, that I have absolutely zero trouble with Willow and Tara's relationship. I adore them.

To each his/her (or his/his, her/her) own, I guess! ;)
Personally I always agreed with the author -- God knows where I read it -- who postulated that since Angelus was turned in the era of de Sade and William was turned in the era of masochism, it was quite likely that Angelus used "sex as a weapon" to keep his new little fledge in line. No mutual consent involved. Their sexual relationship was all about power. And this I can quite believe given their rancor/bond towards each other to this day.
I personally love that innuendo on the shows lets people so easily imagine what might have happened out of sight. Not so happy that some get so twitchy about the possibility, although, I realize that even in the real world it's a hot issue that many aren't comfortable with. I agree with quotes from Whedon and JM, that hey, they were deviant, so crossing some lines probably wasn't a big deal to them. Did it really happen? Obviously in canon, 'something' did and like roadrunner mentioned, doesn't have to be the full out deal to have something happen. Of course, the US has had one of it's own leaders define exactly what is sex and what isn't, so it's bound to lead to some confusion! :)

I think in the ep with the Immortal, Spike said something like, "Hey, they never let us do that!" implying that no group romps had happened, but since we also know that Angelus slept with Drusilla, who's to say what other swapping may or may not have occured?

Also, when Spike said, "There was that one time..." Illyria had used the exact word 'intercourse,' and Spike obviously took it to mean something other than what Illyria meant. To me that was a pretty blatant hint on what Spike and Angelus' past activites 'may' have included. Even more interesting to me is how much fanfiction had taken to the slash and that pairing, long BEFORE that comment ever aired.

I love that the shows are good enough that the fans can imagine all sorts of possibilities. While with some of their examples listed I can't quite picture the pairings, I'm not as immersed in those shows/stories as Buffy/Angel and therefore not as aware of the more subtle aspects/hints/clues.

[ edited by Grace on 2006-01-20 17:17 ]
The only thing that surprises me about Spike and Angel is it was only 'that one . . .' Yeah, right. I think Spike must have been about to say 'only that one-hundred thousand times we shagged each other senseless:-) The guys are obviously head over heels about one another. And Mal and Jayne, Clark and Lex . . . mmmmm. I think Spangel should have been higher on the list, though, as we actually have confirmation from their creator that it really did happen.

Willowy, are you saying gayness precludes heroism? Because I'd have to disagree.

Saje, re: Clex, did you see last night's episode? Lex: 'Clark has really nice hair.' My husband just looked at me and rolled his eyes, saying, 'I know, I know.' :-)

[ edited by lynnie on 2006-01-20 17:35 ]
My last comment on this (aren't you glad) For me, I have no problem with the thought of the sex (between Spike & Angel) happening other than it just doesn't seem to fit in with the characters. I also don't think that intercourse is the only "real" type of sex. I can imagine them having some type of "heat of the moment" contact, then jumping back and wondering what the heck they were doing (with him?). I just don't see them actually fully embarking with one another. But, that's just my opinion and I'll stop now ;)
"The heroes don't bugger each other in my world."

Presumably your world is missing quite a lot of historical hero figures then, Willowy, from Alexander the Great onwards.

The heroes in my world are people who stand up to bigotry of any kind.
Okay, first of all: the vampires are deviant, so they're bound to have gay sex (intercourse or no intercourse) argument I'm seeing here strikes me as at least odd. People don't have to be deviant to have gay sex and being deviant doesn't autmatically equal gay sex. I'm sure no one was trying to imply otherwise, but it just stuck me as odd.

Having said that, I don't believe that Spike and Angel had sex. It's just not what those characters are about. Personally I don't tend to see the subtext, which I think is only there if you really want it to be. Spike's comment doesn't make it cannon. He was joking, being playfull. He might have even been serious, but I don't see that as actual confirmation. And even then it might have meant something onesided, for instance. 'Well, there was this one time when I was spying on Angel having sex and found myself liking it'. Or about 100.000 other possibilities. One misty reference, which might have been said jokingly, doesn't make for a definitve sexual relationship between these characters. It doesn't discount it either, but I'd say all options are still open for debate.

I have no problem with gay relationships on any show. I even have no problem with slash fiction. I don't like to read it, because I'm not so much into fantasising about the sexual lives of the male characters on my favorite shows (I don't even do that with the female characters - or well, at least not often ;-)), but that doesn't mean I'm not fine with the fact that it happens.

What I do not believe though, are comments like these:

The guys are obviously head over heels about one another.


Now maybe this was said jokingly and even if it wasn't, everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion, but this I'd have to very much disagree with :-)
In fiction, guys. Fiction. That's just my preference. Since I'm hetero, I like my heroes to want/get the girl. Something wrong with that?
GVH, I see what you're saying about 'deviant' although it just really means to depart from the norm. The word doesn't necessarily have a negative connotation, but it's undeniably associated with badness in common usage.

Re the 'that one' line, I really don't think Spike was joking. He was almost talking to himself when he said that line, and, anyway, it's not like Illyria would get a joke.

Also, I really do think Spike and Angel loved each other. Did you see the episode where Illyria staked Spike? Then the repeat of the scene where Angel jumped in front to save him, and the look on Spike's face when he did? If that isn't love, I don't know what is. They bickered like an old married couple, and certainly had a boatload of issues, but (just my opinion, though backed up by both Joss and the script:-) I think they had more than just a platonic relationship, at least at some point in their acquaintance.

Willowy, I'm also hetero, but I'm just satisfied if my hero gets whomever makes them happy:-)

[ edited by lynnie on 2006-01-20 17:50 ]
Technically Spike and Angel would be bisexual anyway. I love me my heroes be they straight, gay, bi or celibate.

GVH When Spike said that line he said it almost to himself rather than to Illyria. It was an acknowledgement of an intimate time, not said playfully at all.

I'm curious about the approach to the canon thing though. I mean people have said that if Joss says it's canon it's canon, end of story. But in this case Joss says it's canon and people are saying yeah, well, nah, he's kidding around. Can't have it both ways.

In Destiny Angelus was clearly jealous that William wanted to spend time with Dru and not him. That's why he "taught him a leasson" by going with Dru. He was hurt by William's rejection. You can't hurt feelings that don't exist, and his were hurt.

Must say I'm suprised by some comments here. Each to their own and all that but....
I don't get why Spike and Angel having rivalry, or any other issues, would preclude them from physically enjoying each other. Lust wouldn't stop for 'issues', they revel in bloodlust, the kill and the passion of violence together. Feelings don't come into it - want, take, have.

I'm not much for the Spangel love, but I'm suprised Buffy/Faith didn't make it. Slash isn't a purely male thing so why the list all boys?
"People don't have to be deviant to have gay sex and being deviant doesn't autmatically equal gay sex. I'm sure no one was trying to imply otherwise, but it just stuck me as odd. "

You are absolutely right. When I used deviant, I meant that pretty much anything the boys and girls were getting up to as vamps was considered deviant, against what was considered the moral norm for the times, especially 'back in the day.' Sorry if it became confusing and came across as homosexuality equals deviant. Although, even today, homosexuality is still considered that by some. So I suppose it's still on the fringes of what's considered morally okay by the masses. I don't have issues with it; it could be my heroes, my neighbors or me, doesn't matter.

In the context of that list, I lean towards the concept that Whedon and company were (or are) writing stories that are trying to fit into today's society, of course sexuality is a topical issue where the lines are sometimes fuzzy.
Just wanted to say kudos to all for keeping this a civil and mostly light-hearted discussion. Keep it up, folks :)

lonefashionablewolf - slash was initially/traditionally (going back to the K/S ladies of Star Trek), boys on boys, so to a purist the lack of femmeslash wouldn't raise an eyebrow.
AtS and BTVS are full of homoerotic references! When Angel is called a "little" fairy by Spanky he merely responds that he isn't little. Doyle is a little attracted by Angel's swirling coat and dark brooding mystery , Xander thinks Spike is sort of compact and well muscled causing Buffy to jokingly suspect that whilst * she* isn't sleeping with him Xander might be, Wes and Angel are mistaken for gay dads, Spike tells Willy that he's taking Angel for dinner and a movie because he's been hurt before ... then there's the St Petersberg handholding and the whole " One time" and Joss's comments in the commentary. It's a slasher's paradise and all good clean fun.

Personally I'd have put them at number one!

West Hollywood here we come!
Just an interesting factoid. According to many articles I've seen on slash fanfic, most of the slash writing is done by hetero women. Fascinating /Spock.
Somewhat agree with GVH - it's the possibilities left open that I love. To hold that Spike and Angel simply shagged each other rotten destroys those possibilities and makes all-too concrete a relationship that is beautifully ambiguous. And "fuzzy," as Grace says.

That said, I think we're told they had an intimate encounter - to me, Spike's line more or less says as much, - and I think it's a little disingenous to think that doesn't mean they had sex. But to read some overpowering lust/love/infatuation into that and a few other scenes seems a little more than the shows as a whole can bear.

Why I don't read fanfic (any kind) is that it tends to make way too explicit what is only implied or hinted at. Every feeling or impulse becomes a sex scene, or a relationship, or melodramatic passion. And, you know, "homoerotic" (and hereto-erotic) references are somewhat in the eye of the beholder, and somewhat in the nod and wink of the writer. When tension or buddiness or whatever between two men has to translate to "they want to shag," it's a little reductive, IMO. Sometimes a cigar is just . . .

The difficulty with saying that it's canon that Angel and Spike had sex (even though I think they did) is that the show doesn't actually tell us that in so many words. And, just a personal view, Joss telling us "this is what I meant by this" in a commmentary or interview, isn't canon - only what is written or shown.

But I'm not going to be upset by others' delight in the idea - it ain't my show. :)
I'm surprised no one has commented on the homerotic subtext (or perhaps lack of) in Firefly.
Wow I'm kinda surprised at some of the uproar and the...well, surprise on this thread. Slash is everywhere. It was years ago when I already came across some Buffy/Faith slash. And no, it's not my thing (I like it when we stick to actual characterization) but if it IS your thing then I can see how it would be fun.

The little thing between Angel and Spike was clearly Joss' little wink to the slashers, showing he's aware of them, but that 'intimate' remark can be taken a million ways if you want to get nitpicky. And if you want to take it sexually my money'd be on the big 4-way. (To me personally it just fits the characters better) The thing is that Angel and Spike were rarely friendly and the times that they were it was still all machismo, so I just can't see how either of them would want to be the 'bottom' so to speak. But that's just my view.

If I was into slash I'd be arguing the other way, obviously;-)

As for the 'vamps are deviants' remark: that doesn't necessarily have to mean homosexuality is deviant in the eyes of that speaker. It can just mean that someone is not gay as a human, and might be very inhibited. Well, then the transformation into evil vamphood might change that and make them more willing to try al kinds of stuff. Including gay sex. Maybe not being really gay would then give gay sex a sense of 'different' and 'unfitting' to their normal personality that would make them enjoy it now, seeking the 'deviant' in that personal sense. Seen like that it's more a comment on vamp nature then any real observation about homosexuality itself.

Anyhoo everybody has their views on characters. To me Angel and Spike have such a bossy big brother/pesky little brother relationship that I can't really feel any sexuality there. Both Buffy and Faith are so frikkin' straight and into guys I can't feel any lesbian vibes. (Which is kinda how I personally prefer them anyways, hehe) But I can totally understand others seeing it differently. Eye of the beholder and all. And what's wrong with that? If you don't like slash, don't read it. If you do, then do.

The only show where I ever really saw big, deliberate 'subtext' between two originally straight characters was in Xena, but even on that show they never *really* went there a 100 %. I think they were aware of their big lesbian following and tried to give many different people what they want and just played the middle. But there are definite little nudges in many shows nowadays, which shows at least writers know their different fandom segments.

(Btw what fascinates me most is how many straight women are into gay men sex.)
Ed - (in re: women being the predominant producers/consumers of male/male slash) I think that , as is so often the case with guys digging on the femmeslash/lesbian pr0n/whatever, on some level its just 'twice the salty goodness' plus 'somethings missing in this picture, and I have that missing something right here in my pants, so let me just step into this scene'.

ETA - I'm with SNT on this. The nod and the fuzziness is what's fun about it. Making it concrete either way kills the magic.
OK, so we know what we're talking about here, I went and transcribed the relevant excerpts. First, from "Power Play":
Illyria: A corrupted ruler on such a path sees treachery and betrayal all around him. He cannot suffer intimates. He will eventually turn against them.
Spike: Guess I don't have to worry about that 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one--
Illyria: Mark me. [etc.]

And from the commentary for "A Hole in the World" (prompted by the "St. Petersburg" wire trick):
Joss: The boys were very comfortable about holding hands. There was no talk about how that was weird.
Amy: We were wondering in the later episode when James tells me, when we see Drogan again, um, when he's like "Well there was that one time" when he's talking about being gay, with Angel...
Joss: Yes, um...
Amy: He was wondering if it was this moment, since you had written both lines, or if it was referencing another point in time.
Joss: You know, um, I just wanna say Angel and Spike, they were hanging out, uh, for years and years and years, they were in, you know, all kinds of deviant, they were vampires... Are we thinking they never...? Come on, people. I'm just sayin'. I'm just sayin'. You know, they're open-minded guys. They may be evil but, you know, they're not bigoted or closed-minded. No, the handholding was, was a deliberate kind of over the top "look how together they are" and yes, inevitably it causes some people to think... but uh, it was, it was mostly about the wire gag, but also [interrupted]
Alexis: Which came as a complete surprise to me, I thought that was a great device.

So that's what was said, for the record.

My take is it's not canon that they had sex (nor is it canon that they didn't). Even when Spike says "Except that one--", it still feels (having just watched it) like he's being Spike and cracking wise, even if he's only talking to the humorless Illyria. So I'm not saying they never did it, but I certainly don't think it's canon from what is said. Even Joss seems to be saying he was just kidding around. I think he deliberately wanted to tease the idea, leave it open-ended, let people use their imagination, and have us discuss it ad nauseam. =)
(Btw what fascinates me most is how many straight women are into gay men sex.)

No more surprising than all the men that love the 'girl on girl' action!
And what, you expect lesbians to be into gay man porn??? :~P
Honestly, what's most fascinating is that every post here tells me more about the poster than about the subject matter. That's what makes fiction grand. I will say a few things:

1)When I called James "the best ingenue Angel ever had" I merely meant that there was enormous acting chemistry between them. After throwing different actresses up against David (sometimes literally) it was gratifying to find someone who brought out passion in David's performance that I'd never seen. I mean, look at Caveman vs Astronauts, for god's sake! David is off the charts hilarious. I learned early on to film those two in one-ers instead of regular coverage because their energy just kept increasing. Others have misinterpreted that quote before.

2)What may or may not have happened is entirely up to the viewer, that's what makes it art. Having said that, I know EXACTLY what happened and it's funny that I'm never going to tell anyone. But did no one see the obvious smoldering passion between the Blue Hand guys? MAN, did you guys miss the boat.

3)In my world, heroes bugger each other senseless. Not all of them, but more than you'd think, and probably not who you're thinking. But seriously, Anybody here care to tell Apollo and the Midnighter how a hero should behave? To their faces?
Thanks for joining in, Joss :) /awaits the Hands of Blue Slash... Always good to have an Authority ref, too.

ETA - for those who don't know:

# Apollo, an openly-gay Superman pastiche with solar-powered abilities. He is married to Midnighter.
# Midnighter, an openly-gay Batman pastiche whose enhancements are intended to make him the world's most dangerous fighter. He is married to Apollo.

see: wikipedia and gay league for more on Apollo/Midnighter.
Ed - I think that, as is so often the case with guys digging on the femmeslash/lesbian pr0n/whatever, on some level its just 'twice the salty goodness' plus 'somethings missing in this picture, and I have that missing something right here in my pants, so let me just step into this scene'.

Zeigeist I couldn't agree more. It's a cultural 'known' that guys are into lesbian sex, but as you point out, they're not REALLY into lesbian sex. What they're into is having sex with two women who also....uh do stuff...to each other. A guy with two real lesbians would probably turn out like with Ross on friends: at first he watches all excited, then after 10 minutes he goes to make a sandwich! Real lesbian sex doesn't include us fellas! That's what makes it *lesbian*!

(Probably why I was never really into it as most of my fellow men are....)

But that still doesn't explain what straight women see in male slash because I don't think they're all automatically picturing the threesome there...

My take is it's not canon that they had sex (nor is it canon that they didn't). Even when Spike says "Except that one--", it still feels (having just watched it) like he's being Spike and cracking wise

Also, he doesn't say anything about sex. He says 'intimate', which probably very deliberatedly can mean many things.

I think it's like that shot of Spike and Buffy in the cellar in 'Chosen'. Joss said that if you want to think they had sex, you can do so, because it's possible. If you want to think they cuddled, you can do so. If you want to think they talked, etc. Some stuff they really leave up to the individual watcher. So everyone, interpret at your heart's delight....
There's a joke here about the gloves the Blue Hand guys wore, but I'm not coming up with it. Thank goodness. ;-)
And then I see The joss has posted while I typed and has already said the same things but like, better and with more authority and stuff.

Happy and redundant at the same time.....;-)
I'm trying to resist the urge to make that joke, jam2, really I am ;)
I'm surprised no one has commented on the homerotic subtext (or perhaps lack of) in Firefly.

That's because Mal/Simon is practically text, especially in the movie. ;) (Though nowhere near the level of say, Scrubs, where JD/Turk is almost supertext. :) )

The long smoldering looks at each other, the way they're always so physically close to each other, the way Mal shoves Simon onto that table...
Ah, confirmation from on high...of...something. Or nothing....
I know I said I would shut up, but this is such a rousing debate. I'm drawn back in. LFW - I don't think that the "lust" ultimately decides everything the vamps do. Spike told Xander he wouldn't bite him and Willow that he would. So there must be some thought and choice in the matter (regarding biting,sex or whatever). Now, I've seriously got to leave this alone and start working :)

ACK, after posting this my screen refreshed and lo and behold there is Joss :0 Now, I know I need to shut up!

[ edited by supersymetry on 2006-01-20 19:28 ]
But that still doesn't explain what straight women see in male slash because I don't think they're all automatically picturing the threesome there...


Ed - Oh, the cliche is that they want to explore the emotional intimacy and vulnerability implicit in such pairings, but we all know that that's secondary to hot salty goodness ;) Plus, that explanation seems a sort of tacit insult as it is often tied up in the idea that these heroes aren't in touch with their own minds/feelings and it just eventually boils over uncontrollably. Not only the heroes in question, but men in general, which I find insulting in the same way as I find the horror archetype of the scared blonde victim girl insulting.

ETA - two by two, glands of blue, anyone?
Oh, the cliche is that they want to explore the emotional intimacy and vulnerability implicit in such pairings, but we all know that that's secondary to hot salty goodness ;)

Um, I don't give a flying fig about men's feelings in slash. I just want 'em to get it on show me some more salty goodness.
Ah, the refreshing wind of honest self-assessment blows through ;)
Wow, Joss' world is almost like Neal Stephenson's world, where historically notable scientists all buggered each other senseless. I still have not forgiven Neal for that whole "umlaut" exchange in Cryptonomicon!
Ah, the refreshing wind of honest self-assessment blows through ;)

Life's too short to lie to yourself! And come on...salty goodness...

But really, my main reason for not wanting to see 'sweet emotion' is that it makes it more realistic for me. I can't even fathom Angel and Spike being kind and tender to each other, but rough, angry action...totally.
Supersymetry: It is all pointless really, but yeah isn't it fun to speculate on this stuff? As to your point, true, true, but let's not forget Spike is a bit of an anomaly in that he kept so much humanity. (Always found it interesting Angel never really eats human food, while Spike does all the time. And boozes of course.)

Plus, that explanation seems a sort of tacit insult as it is often tied up in the idea that these heroes aren't in touch with their own minds/feelings and it just eventually boils over uncontrollably. Not only the heroes in question, but men in general, which I find insulting in the same way as I find the horror archetype of the scared blonde victim girl insulting.

Agreed, zeigeist! We're not all moronic machos, ladies! Besides, does it get any more sensitive than Spike? And he's pretty darn into the ladies as well as kinda macho. (Ah but then there's that darn inner poet;-)

But seriously, Anybody here care to tell Apollo and the Midnighter how a hero should behave? To their faces?

Hah! I missed that one earlier! And well, you could try, but the Midnighter would take your head off.....
Honestly, what's most fascinating is that every post here tells me more about the poster than about the subject matter

Oh dear, oh dear..
Joss, i was going to make a similar comment about Northstar of Alpha Flight/X-Men fame, but you beat me to it with the whole Apollo/Midnighter thing.

I'm hetero and yet in my world i still have no problem dealing with heroes buggering one another. Whatever makes them happy, i guess.
..."I mean, look at Caveman vs Astronauts, for god's sake!"

OT, but can't help it. Seeing Joss talk Buffy/Angel makes me smile. Won't ever get enough of that.
No love For Xander/Angel or Xander/Riley?
Or Simon/Mal?
Or Lorne/Gun?

Please don't hit me and my strange slash love.
I'm hetero and yet in my world i still have no problem dealing with heroes buggering one another. Whatever makes them happy, i guess.

Agreed, but the way you phrased that made me think....it raises the question of whether or not the straight heroic couples on BtVS and AtS did any buggering? Like Buffy and Angel, or... well we KNOW Buffy and Spike must have.....and Xander and Anya, come on....

Ooooh I'm so gonna get slapped down aren't I?;-)
After reading the thread I suddenly realised that I'm totally OK with slash in fanfics but I'd be utterly shocked to see Spike and Angel "doing it" onscreen.
Jebus I go to lunch and I come back to 26 freaking new comments. You folks have been busy.

Though nowhere near the level of say, Scrubs, where JD/Turk is almost supertext.


I was going to say something about those two but you beat me to it. In the first episode this week Turk's "I'm gonna get some sex" dance followed my JD's ass slap was so funny I nearly cried.

Oh speaking of gay superheros, in the Ultimate X-Men, the one most recently penned by Vaughan and soon to be penned by Kirkman, Colossus is gay. It's been hinted at for a while but he just came out of the closet and just started dating Northstar.

[ edited by war_machine on 2006-01-20 19:45 ]
There was once a piece of direction in an Angel script by Minear that read, "Angel eyefucks Lindsey."

I'm taking that as canon, my friends. IT'S CANON.

And agree with Joss that in my world, the heroes bugger each other senseless. Nothing prettier than two pretty boys smooching, I say. Bless the slashers.

Edited to make zeitgeist look crazy.

[ edited by Allyson on 2006-01-20 19:58 ]
zeitgeist - thanks for clearing up my confusion! Although I'm tempted to get a bit stroppy about how slash is just like golf, man.

JustNick - the stranger the better! I'll be setting up the first Phantom Dennis/Mr Gordo archive shortly.
Allyson - so long as thats cannon (boom!) and not canon ;) Also, eyefuck doesn't sound like a happy nice nice term, sounds like Angel was giving him a nasty nasty look.

ETA - you don't need to edit anything to make me look crazy, Allyson :)

lonefashionablewolf - Spangel golf slash you say? Skip to the end... ;) And no hole in one jokes, please.

Its all well and good for the heroes who are so inclined to bugger one another senseless; I think the contrary view expressed here is generally that slash takes characters who aren't so inclined and bends them every which way (figuratively and literally) to have them bugger one another senseless :) Which is fine, but some of us remember that the nod and the wink are just that and are there because of the / already existing, which is where slashers tend to go off track and swear that IT IS SO because of the knowing wink/nod. Seems to me that thats what we call circular logic.
RogueSlayer says,

And what, you expect lesbians to be into gay man porn??? :~P


But some of are ARE into "gay man" porn. :-) !!

I am also ticked off at this "top twelve" list for leaving out the femmeslash. More Buffy/Faith, please.

Blue Hand guys slash == very silly. But speaking of Jeff Ricketts, I think Weatherby/Wesley is vaguely more plausible. Don't tell me those long nights at the (almost all male) Watcher's Academy didn't include some serious fooling around.
Its all well and good for the heroes who are so inclined to bugger one another senseless; I think the contrary view expressed here is generally that slash takes characters who aren't so inclined and bends them every which way (figuratively and literally) to have them bugger one another senseless :) Which is fine, but some of us remember that the nod and the wink are just that, which is where slashers tend to go off track and swear that IT IS SO because of the knowing wink/nod. Thats what we call circular logic.

Yeah I know, I don't care what slash people are into, and they can fill the net with stories about it, but it gets kinda tiresome when they insist that it's all literally intended that way in the show.

(Of course the forementioned straight-couple-buggering is all completley within character. Except I don't think Angel got to do it to Buffy. That was all way too 'sweet sixteen'. Now Spike on the other hand in S6.......;-)

Anyhoosie, winks from writers aside, really, no one ever intended for Spock and Kirk to be seen as gay lovers. No official writer is every going to make Superman and Luthor smooch either. Spike and Angel have both always been in love with women. Have fun with the winks, but yeah....I do think they're just that...winks.

On the other hand, maybe I should start some fiction that says that Tara was really straight and was INTENDED to be by the show. Remember OMWF?? "I want the boys"?? It's all so obvious, people....;-)
Considering text and subtext, nobody's commenting on the look that flashes between Spike and Xander in Beneath You, when Nancy asks if there's anyone there that hasn't slept together. Maybe all that anger and jealousy from Xander over Buffy having sex with Spike was doubly-pointed, so to speak.

And of course there is the pair-up of Xander and Andrew which would give us Xandrew. Or would that be Ander?
Yep, gonna agree - again, yawn, with zeity. Take the Apollo/Midnighter "heroes who bugger each other" motif - they were always gay, prominent, unashamed, damn tough gay men. Great great characters (even though The Authority went a little OTT for me at times). But for heroes who have not previously been gay, it creates dissonance - wait, Angel and Spike both love/lust after/whatever you wanna call it Buffy (not to mention Darla, Dru, etc.), but they have this smouldering subtext going on? Bit hard for me to swallow (ho ho). Certainly there is some fluidity in sexual attraction and so on - but from experience living in big cities in various countries and encountering really a lot of fairly uninhibited people, I've gotta say it's actually pretty rare (which isn't to deny that fictional characters can embrace that which real folk might shy aware from).

I can totally buy uninhibited vampires getting in on once - maybe a few times. But to insist that Angel and Spike, both ensouled, are yearning for one another? I think that's a slash too far. But, again, if the thought floats your boat, it's all cool. And if you want to write that thought down in lurid detail so's others can enjoy - all the better.
Oh, so its the topic of slash that gets Joss to grace us with a visit! It certainly reveals alot more about him than it does about the subject matter! ;)

[ edited by zeitgeist to fix the color of the joss on 2006-01-20 20:21 ]
But some of are ARE into "gay man" porn. :-) !!

Well, I stand corrected and have my horizons broadened all at once! Assumptions are nasty little things...apologies to the lesbian contingency who digs man on man action! Although I gotta ask...is it because it's hot, or because it's funny? If it's cuz it's hot, doesn't that mean yer a little bi? Although I guess 'categories' are a bit subjective here...
In my world, heroes bugger each other senseless.


Aww, my sentiments exactly. Yes, I'm a slash fan and yes, I loves me some Spangel. It's all good clean (ie., dirty) fun.

And in the spirit of good clean fun, I offer this link to an amusing site, a collection of unintentionally funny comic book covers and scenes: Link

[ edited by zeitgeist to link-ify on 2006-01-20 20:22 ]
Chickenbird said (regarding Rogue Slayer's comment):
But some of are ARE into "gay man" porn. :-) !!


Beat me to it, Chickenbird!!
But for heroes who have not previously been gay, it creates dissonance - wait, Angel and Spike both love/lust after/whatever you wanna call it Buffy (not to mention Darla, Dru, etc.), but they have this smouldering subtext going on? Bit hard for me to swallow (ho ho). Certainly there is some fluidity in sexual attraction and so on - but from experience living in big cities in various countries and encountering really a lot of fairly uninhibited people, I've gotta say it's actually pretty rare (which isn't to deny that fictional characters can embrace that which real folk might shy aware from).

In my experience, bisexuality isn't rare at all. And it's all on a sliding (Kinsey) scale anyway. *g*
I know EXACTLY what happened and it's funny that I'm never going to tell anyone.

The number of things that Joss is not telling us is increasing every day. Literally. And I for one don't find it funny. Humph.

edited to add,there is a great series of books by Rosemary Sutcliffe - intended for children, that deal with the Roman invasion of Britain. A couple of the soldiers are clearly a couple. They spur each other onto to great feats of derring do and bravery, wanting to prove worthy of the other. It is very subtlely done but there.

[ edited by Lioness on 2006-01-20 20:43 ]
In my experience, bisexuality isn't rare at all. And it's all on a sliding (Kinsey) scale anyway. *g*

I tend to agree with the Kinsey scale, but I don't think that SNT meant that bisexuality is all that rare. Just that (at least mainly) straight people don't have little experiments that often. (at least that's what I think he meant. I could be way off)

I can totally buy uninhibited vampires getting in on once - maybe a few times. But to insist that Angel and Spike, both ensouled, are yearning for one another? I think that's a slash too far.

Seconded. Just like the eternal thing about Batman and Robin. No they're not gay, because they've never been written to be gay. They've both always been straight. Ever. But if I'm supposed to buy those romantic pairings I can think of a couple more. Okay, let's go nuts...

-Ever noticed the glances between Oz and Principal Snyder? Smoldering, people!

-Jimmy Olsen was really Perry White's 'boy'....

-All that raw sexual tension between Tom & Jerry was palpable.

-Leia clearly loved the time she spent as Jabba's sex slave. She merely killed him so Han wouldn't find out.

-We all know Treepio is gay, but did you know Artoo was bi??

-The Japanese ghost lady from the Grudge clearly had sexual intentions with Sarah's character. All that sexy 'here-I-come' crawling...

-Han and Chewie were 'partners' in more ways than one. (Their favorite game was 'Walk the Dog'...)

-The Balrog was only masking his true feelings for Gandalf.

Hey I got a million of'em;-)
a collection of unintentionally funny comic book covers and scenes


Okay, I am officially amused by those ;-)

Whats more, I pretty much agree with all that zeitgeist and SNT said in their last posts on this subject. Saves me the trouble of forming thoughts and opinions on my own. Gotta love the lazy.
If it's cuz it's hot, doesn't that mean yer a little bi?

One could argue that we're all bi to one degree or another. I leave it up to individuals to define themselves, but I imagine a lesbian would consider herself no less of one just for getting voyueristic pleasure out of watching two gay men get it on.
BTW, just to scar everybody in this thread: I've read Blue Hand slash. I've read Reaver slash. I've read Reaver/Blue Hand slash. Be grateful I can't dig up the links offhand. ;)
Yeah, EdD's interpretation of what I meant was pretty spot-on.

FWIW, I definitely agree that a continuum (rather than dichotomy) of sexual attraction exists (although I have a great deal of doubt about Kinsey's research more generally), but, yep, I think people are fixed at some point on that continuum - they're not sliding up and down it like manic hockey pucks (in that sense, I think the term "sliding scale" is a bit misleading).

So if you're bi and somewhere near the middle, of course you act on those desires. If you're toward the straight or gay edges, you're not going to be acting on bisexual impulses much at all. ('Course, if you can find something to inhibit your natural impulses - really strong drugs, suddenly turning into an amoral vamp, - the field is probably a bit more open.)

Anyway, that's my empirical take. More data is always welcomed. :)
Okay, now that's just downright disturbing. Reaver slash? Reaver/Blue Hand slash? That's just, I dunno, wrong.

So, explain to me again why you actually read it. Ah well, to each their own, I guess ;-)
One could argue that we're all bi to one degree or another.

Back the sliding scale, which I do agree with!
OK, everyone take a breath. One-two, one-two. Personally, I got a good chuckle from this thread. I will never understand 'Slash' fiction. But, I must admit the thought of Kirk and Spock "doing it" leaves me in tears.

People, it's just an article. Please remember the room you're in.
I know I just skipped a bunch of the later posts here, but wanted to thank whoever posted the quotes of what was actually said...in my memory I swore that Illyria said intercourse (I took it as verbal intercouse, discourse, etc.). Wow! Guess I know where my mind is! LOL.

I agree with all who think the magic is in the wondering and supposing, not the knowing!
Word, MadH - still, I think this is one of the calmer and more thoughtful discussion we've had, thanks to our fine members. :)
I agree with you, SNT, I'm enjoying this discussion a lot. Although it may have something to do with the fact that we are discussing (mostly) fictional characters.
Spike is a bit of an anomaly in that he kept so much humanity. (Always found it interesting Angel never really eats human food, while Spike does all the time. And boozes of course.)
EdDantes

Good point EdDantes. I noticed that about Spike but never thought about it in those terms.

It's been a while since I saw "Power Play", but I remember that when I saw it, I took Spike's remark as wisecracking. But I think it says something that he's comfortable wisecracking in that way. Spike's always seemed more flexible in his sexual identity, willing to play with the idea of "manliness", like in "School Hard" he tells Buffy he likes weapons because they make him feel all manly, then immediately drops his, or the famous "I'm love's bitch, but man enough to admit it" line. Angelus seems more rigidly macho, the domineering alpha male. He dominates and humiliates Spike, but he does it through possessing Dru sexually. I can see Spike presoul being into sexual experimentation - hell, he even likes his blood "hot and spicey", while for Angelus the high kicks seem to be in the murder and mayhem area.
My Spike love overcame my original aversion to slash. When I ran out of good Spuffy, and started disliking Buffy anyway, I started reading the Spangel. First by skimming the sex scenes, then I was seduced.

Now I prefer it. Spangel Fiction tends to be deeply emotional. More about the thoughts than the physical act. And kinky.

And I have noticed a lot of lesbian Spangel fans. There seems to be an enormous number of lesbian Spike fans period. I once read an essay, can't remember where or by who, that basically said Spike was like a really butch dyke.
Spike was like a really butch dyke


Really? That idea amuses me greatly. Anyone have a reference?
still, I think this is one of the calmer and more thoughtful discussion we've had

Yeah, Madh are you seeing some angry yelling and fighting that I'm missing? Looks like a perfectly friendly thread to me.

Maybe a little TOO friendly even....*nudge nudge wink wink*;-)

It's been a while since I saw "Power Play", but I remember that when I saw it, I took Spike's remark as wisecracking. But I think it says something that he's comfortable wisecracking in that way.

Interesting. I didn't get the idea he was wisecracking. I just felt he didn't mean 'intimate' as in the physical since physycial intimacy wasn't really the topic at hand to begin with. But I really just saw the writers giving the slash fans a nice little nod.

Angelus seems more rigidly macho, the domineering alpha male. He dominates and humiliates Spike, but he does it through possessing Dru sexually. can see Spike presoul being into sexual experimentation -

I pretty much agree with all of that. Like I said earlier, my main problem is that I just don't see either soulless Spike or Angelus willingly being the other guy's 'bottom'. If they had wild moments, I think they'd still both want to be the top.

And yeah, given their history, I think that for Angelus, at least half the fun in doing Dru was pissing Spike off;-)
I know I just skipped a bunch of the later posts here, but wanted to thank whoever posted the quotes of what was actually said...in my memory I swore that Illyria said intercourse (I took it as verbal intercouse, discourse, etc.). Wow! Guess I know where my mind is! LOL.

You're not completely imagining it, Grace. Earlier in the same episode, Illyria says to Spike that she and Wesley are "no longer having intercourse", Spike is like "Huh?!?", and Illyria explains that Wesley won't talk to her. So you remembered right, but it referred to a different relationship.

ETA: Ditto on enjoying the civility of this thread. I think it's going on and on because people find it an interesting discussion (and because Joss posted), not because they're pissed off or anything.

BTW, slightly OT, I encourage people to peruse the main "Examples of Superdickery" gallery on that site. It's hilarious (for example).

[ edited by jam2 on 2006-01-20 21:24 ]
Okay, now that's just downright disturbing. Reaver slash? Reaver/Blue Hand slash? That's just, I dunno, wrong.

So, explain to me again why you actually read it. Ah well, to each their own, I guess ;-)

Well, for one thing, they were written by my friends. Which probably says alot about me. :-P But more importantly, just for the shear... I don't know. Horror factor? Maybe it's some kind of latent masochism where we want to see just how much we can scar ourselves mentally.
Spike was like a really butch dyke


Yeah, but is there a huge difference between a "really butch dyke" and, you know, a man (apart from which bits dangle where) ? That's not meant to be insulting i'm actually curious (and woefully uninformed).

I haven't read any slash (let alone Spangel) but to me the only plausible Spike/Angel slash would be quite violent and animalistic, a battle for dominance, basically a fight played out as sex. Whether they did it or not in the canon, I just don't see tenderness coming into it (look how the Spike/Buffy sex was and he loved her).

I've read Reaver/Blue Hand slash. Be grateful I can't dig up the links offhand. ;)


Not sure I ever want to know what constitutes reaver on reaver action. I think i'd be trying to bury those links deeper, not dig 'em up. Possibly with some salting of the earth ;).

As an aside, I heard or read somewhere that men like girl on girl because it means they can enjoy sex without putting their beer down ;).
I once read an essay, can't remember where or by who, that basically said Spike was like a really butch dyke.




Hmm, maybe you're thinking of the Arwen Spicer essay from Slayage #7, "Love's Bitch, but Man Enough to Admit It: Spike's Hybridized Gender" which can be found at the Slayage website
Whether they did it or not in the canon, I just don't see tenderness coming into it (look how the Spike/Buffy sex was and he loved her).

He was actually quite tender with the Buffy Bot, it was the real Buffy that initiated the rough sex, to which he happily went along.
There's one thing I haven't seen anyone consider re: Angel/Spike, though it might not be the funny that Joss hinted at. Could Angelus have raped Spike as a way of asserting his dominance over him? Angelus seemed to like to humiliate Spike by doing everything to degrade and defile him. Angelus did this because that was the be-all and end-all of his existence. He had sex with Dru at a time he most likely knew he would be caught by Spike, to let him know who was the alpha dog in the pack and make him feel lower than dirt. Violent, aggressive male prisoners will rape other male prisoners to assert their dominance, not because they like sex with men. Angelus got off on destroying people's psyches, and while not a prisoner, he wore aggression like a stink on feces.
Well, I feel my name requires me to post in this thread.

Posted.

Also. I think they did it seven ways to Sunday!
One could argue that we're all bi to one degree or another. I leave it up to individuals to define themselves, but I imagine a lesbian would consider herself no less of one just for getting voyueristic pleasure out of watching two gay men get it on.


That pretty much sums it up. Watching two gay men get it on, reading about them getting it on, writing about them getting it on ... the possibilities are endless! And that makes us (or at least me) no less likely to enjoy a good Buffy/Faith story. It's all good, people.

On another topic, Joss says (about David and James),
I merely meant that there was enormous acting chemistry between them.


Shall I take that as license to mean I'm allowed to read real-person slash about David and James? ;-) ;-) ACTING chemistry people, ACTING.
Hey, guys, I had classes this morning. Anything interesting happen while I...wha the...?
killinj: That's a good point. I wonder tho' if that was him trying to be Ken to his mental image of Barbie Buffy ? It didn't feel like the real pre-soul Spike to me.

Nebula1400: That's sort of what I was implying above. In some male animals (e.g. rams, some apes) it seems homosexual rape is used in exactly this way i.e. as a means of asserting authority and, in a sense, ownership of the dominated male (tho' this idea is a bit controversial).

chickenbird: It strikes me that there's an asymmetry regarding same sex coupling. It seems perfectly plausible that a lesbian could happily enjoy watching gay male sex, gay female sex or hetero sex and have no 'identity' issues. This may also be true of hetero women but if a hetero man found himself enjoying gay male porn I think he'd have serious worries regarding his sexuality. As you say it should be all good and folk should set their sail to whatever tack they like, just seems like there may be a social disparity there.
There's one thing I haven't seen anyone consider re: Angel/Spike, though it might not be the funny that Joss hinted at. Could Angelus have raped Spike as a way of asserting his dominance over him?

You mean just in this thread, right?
Saje says,
...but if a hetero man found himself enjoying gay male porn I think he'd have serious worries regarding his sexuality.


I didn't wanna mention it, but yeah, he might. Or if he were secure enough in his sexuality he might not have any serious worries. If he's "metro" enough, or something.
I wonder tho' if that was him trying to be Ken to his mental image of Barbie Buffy ? It didn't feel like the real pre-soul Spike to me.

Possibly, although I think if real life Buffy had approached him in a tender and romantic way with regards to sex, he would have reciprocated in kind. It just happened that she first engaged him sexually in a violent way and that informed how he responded throughout the rest of their sexual relationship. Pre-soul, he did attempt to be more tender towards her and she refused his advances. Also, I think he was quite tender and romantic towards Dru.
A quote from Joss' commentary to "A Hole In The World"...

[Over Angel and Spike arguing]"I've never seen a more intense or beautiful romance. We finally found the right girl for Angel... I'm SORT OF kidding."
My apologles. I haven't been able to get anything right these past few months. Please forgive me. I'll work on it. And no problem with the criterion. It was fair. I just can't feel anything within myself.
Punkinpuss it wasn't the Slayage Site essay. This essay was written recently on someone's live journal. It was really good. Interesting and funny. I wish I had a clue where to begin. I often jump from one Live Journal link to another. I probably started from Darker Spike but who knows?

As far as not being able to see Spike or Angel as a "bottom."
Please. I think Spike could be said to be a submissive with both Buffy and Dru. People are often the opposite in sex from what they are in real life.
Joss So that's how you spell ingenue. *slaps forehead* I knew that. Honest. *whistles innocently*

Agreed, JM and DB had, I believe, the best chemistry with each other, better than they did with anyone else. And it's exactly that that opens up the possibilities for all sorts of avenues of thought. They hate each other with intense passion and long to be rid of each other. And yet, they always gravitate back together one way or another. Why? Coincedence or destiny? Again, more options open up to us the viewers.

And why can't they ever kill each other? I mean Angel really should have staked both Spike and Lawson in the submarine episode. He was souled, they weren't and he knew they would kill people. He felt guilt over Lawson and gave him a free pass. But why did he spare Spike?

Yes, I'm a Spangel. Yes, two good looking men together is imo hot. But the Spike and Angel relationship, on any level, is just endlessly fascinating to me. Their pairing can and is seen in many different ways, as lovers, siblings, father/child. I love looking at their relationship and finding yet more layers to it.

At the Halloween Con both DB and JM agreed that despite their outward antagonism, deep down there is a love between Spike and Angel. They didn't specify what kind of love and I don't think it matters. Again, be it a sexual, familial or comrades in arms love, it is I believe there.

And that is why I campaigned for a S6 to happen. To see more of this amazing pairing, both characters and actors. *sniffle* I miss the boys. *pouts*
Possibly, although I think if real life Buffy had approached him in a tender and romantic way with regards to sex, he would have reciprocated in kind. It just happened that she first engaged him sexually in a violent way


I think this is a bit revisionist. Their relationship was initiated in violence, pure and simple. Spike trying to kill Buffy (although there was always an interesting attraction, I agree), Buffy trying to stake Spike, or wondering why she hadn't. And when they achieved a fragile detente in "Becoming Part II" or "Lover's Walk", they still pummelled *each other*, not just Buffy waling on poor lil' Spike. And, frankly, he seemed to enjoy it. In that context, I don't think there was a hope in hell that they were suddenly going to have tender kitten sex. And, more generally, I just don't see it as Buffy being the aggressor, and Spike the victim. Not at all. Their relationship continually had a shifting balance of power - which is one thing I love about it.

And there was that time Spike smacked the Buffybot across the room - he wasn't always that gentle towards it.

the Spike and Angel relationship, on any level, is just endlessly fascinating to me. Their pairing can and is seen in many different ways, as lovers, siblings, father/child. I love looking at their relationship and finding yet more layers to it


And this I absolutely agree with.

Madhatter - please don't worry about it. We always welcome and value any and all comments coming from the great Whedonesquer you are. :)
Wasn't "The Immortal" the only one to have Darla and Dru concurrently? Also, Spike was awfully upset when Angel was messing around with Dru. While orgies(?) might be a big part of the vamp lifestyle. I just think these 4 had too many issues with each other. Especially, Spike and Angel.

Yes, but do you think that after the Immortal did have them concurrently, that Angelus would have let that stand? I mean, there were years after that this could have occurred.

The moment Angelus saw Spike in season two, he kissed him on his forehead. And Darla/Drusilla? Come on--Slash central...They may have issues, but it doesn't mean they didn't boink.

The only one I would wonder about is Darla/Spike, (although I think it would have been hot as hell if they did.)
Isn't super cool that Joss actually reads these posts? This gives me a lot of hope that when he makes the next Buffyverse project it will be what the majority of us want. By reading this website he is in tune with his fans. I like that a lot.
Madhatter, just be sure to pass around a little of whatever it is you've got there! ;) - kidding! We all loves ya.
Thank you, SoddingNancyTribe. I'm OK.
SNT Cheers petal! :0)

Spike and Buffy, I must say that I didn't care for how she'd beat up on him prior to S6, when he had the chip and couldn't even defend himself, let alone fight her. Guess that's why I was never a Spuffy.

In fact I was never a shipper until S5 of Ats. Weird huh. The power of the Spangel raises it's head. LOL! :0)
He felt guilt over Lawson and gave him a free pass. But why did he spare Spike?


Really complex to get into, but IMO, its tied up in his guilt over turning Spike loose in the first place and the fact that staking Spike would be in some way to him be denial of the possibility of his own redemption.

At the Halloween Con both DB and JM agreed that despite their outward antagonism, deep down there is a love between Spike and Angel. They didn't specify what kind of love and I don't think it matters.


I think they didn't specify because they thought it was obvious how they meant it. Familial (brothers and father/son), comrades, and though they won't admit it they share an even deeper bond being two ensouled vamps/Champions seeking redemption.
zeitgeist Thanks for your comments. Was Angel even bothered about redemption at that point? Arrrrg, yet more questions that could have been answered in S6. *sobs silently*
I think this is a bit revisionist.

How is it revisionist? The first time they had sex they were being violent with each other, which I'm not denying was common between them, and she initiated sex. There were times when Spike tried to be comforting, rather than confrontational and Buffy angrily pushed him away everytime. I believe if she had responded positively to his efforts to be nice, he would have continued act accordingly as best as he could.

Also, I'm not suggesting that Spike would always tender with her or anyone else for that, nobody is, but that he had the capacity within him even pre-soul and that he was actually predisposed to playing the romantic. It wasn't against his nature at all.

[ edited by killinj on 2006-01-20 23:13 ]
exoticmushroom - I believe that he was, yes (not so actively as later on of course). Completely with you re: S6. It would have been glorious! :)
Nebula1400 -- That's what I was intimating a long way back when I mentioned the essay that commented on Angelus being a Sadist and Spike a bit of a masochist. I think if anything ever did happen between them, it would be all about the dominance, not the love and the tenderness. Angelus simply wasn't a tender guy. And William/Spike learned from him how to hide his own tender streak.
The day we Get SereniLlama and Werewolf Oz slash will be the day the first creepy slash fic is ever written.
In terms of S6 and other unknowns (Firefly eps etc), I always wonder whether Joss would ever write anything for them for his own enjoyment, to take them on the paths they won't be going down on tv (sob!). I guess he doesn't have much time but he created these characters who became so real to us (I imagine to him in some ways too - maybe more, I don't know), maybe he sometimes misses them like we do.
killinj, I may have come off a bit harsh. More specifically I suppose I meant to say "with the benefit of hindsight," rather than "revisionist."

My point was that the violence between Spike and Buffy had always been there, that Spike had a tendency - as did Buffy to some extent, - to swing wildly from tenderness or passivity to rage, and that, at the time they began a sexual relationship, there was just no realistic possibility that Buffy would approach it in the spirit of tenderness.

I agree that "if she had responded positively to his efforts to be nice, he would have continued act accordingly as best as he could." My point is that she had no reason to respond in that way, and that some of your comments seem to attribute some blame to her in that regard that I think is unjustified. Plus the fact that, you know, the whole torn out of heaven/slight wish to not be alive/not feeling thing may have made it hard for her to reach out.

My take on the Season Six relationship is that both Buffy and Spike were in the grip of powers beyond their control, and that each of them was using the other in sex.
SNT - my "if she had responded positively to his efforts to be nice" was exactly that - a "what if" - not in anyway suggesting that it would or could have happened that way. Nor am I assigning blame to Buffy or saying she was the only aggressor in the relationship. I was simply providing evidence of Spike following his romantic instincts in an effort to counter what I interpreted as your supposition that Spike didn't have it in him pre-soul to be a more tender romantic as opposed to just into the rough stuff.
Well, I guess I read too much into your words - and I think you might have read too much into mine in finding a supposition about Spike that I hadn't intended. But cool that we've reached a place of agreement. I think.
I do think that they might have been intimate one time or so. But i don't think that Angelus raped or forced Spike.
I believe there would have been mutual agreement.
Becuse i believe that would that have happend, Spike would take his revenge on Angel now that they are more of equal strength.

As for not dusting Spike in the submarine,1) it would have been a tough fight, 2)Angel would not be fighting the good fight for another 50 or 60 years until Sunnydale, where he gets a purpose.
Yeah, I was beginning to think that perhaps we were missing each other points and that we probably had more in agreement with each other than where our diverting trains of thought were leading us.
I was actually surprised to read this thread and find out that so many people didn't see the slashy subtext abound in the Whedonverse. You learn new things everyday at Whedonesque. :)

Add me to the list of people who's shocked that Buffy/Faith didn't rate the list (I remember watching "Who Are You?" with a friend, she certainly thought the moment with Faith in the tub was overtly sexual enough for her to stare at me in shock and ask, "Are they allowed to show that?!"). Or that this thread hasn't seen any mentions of Faith and Lilah - I could swear the script for "Five by Five" advised the actors to "keep the lesbian subtext very sub," not to mention the, "You don't know how many guys have promised [to get me off]." "I'm certain you won't be disappointed in our performance," exchange between those two.

Though didn't Joss encourage from early on to Bring Your Own Subtext? While some people here seem to go either way on whether sexual acts between characters did or did not take place canonically, the beauty of so many Whedonverse relationships is that they are so rich with many kinds of subtext that you can interpret them however you like. It's no surprise that Buffy/Faith and Angel/Spike are so popular in slashfic; the relationships are so rich to explore, and everyone can see them differently.
Saskbuffyfan, I wouldn't hold your breath for Joss to ever give us "what the majority of us want," even though he reads our posts. He only gives us what we really need.

[ edited by spikeangellover on 2006-01-21 00:52 ]
"the beauty of so many Whedonverse relationships is that they are so rich with many kinds of subtext that you can interpret them however you like."


I totally agree! And the beauty of Whedonesque is that we can have such interesting and civil debates!
Saskbuffyfan, I wouldn't hold your breath for Joss to ever give us "what the majority of us want," even though he reads our posts. He only gives us what we really need.


Would also be wary of assuming anything about the opinions of the majority of fandom from posts in any specific thread on any specific site. Also, remember that Bring Your Own Subtext means that you are doomed to never get validation of your particular subtext in some cases, and also means that there are bound to be folks who take diametrically opposed views. The great thing is that we can all talk about it fairly lightheartedly and have a great time doing so. The Joss(tm) definitely gives us what we need, however, as spikeangellover astutely points out :)
I have been a comic book fan for about 25 years and I have always found that entire industry to be unique because the comic enthusiasts could interact with the professional talent to a greater degree than any other area of entertainment. If you want to meet an artist, chances are they will be at a convention soon. If you really like a comic, you can write the author an email or go to their personal website. (I have only written to two comics pros and in both cases I got a personal response a few minutes later! For the curious it was Brian Bendis and Michael Gaydos) Similarly, by embracing the fans and the ‘Verse, I believe the Buffy/Angel/Firefly/Serenity professionals have created a similar environment for fans to have these exciting personal experiences. I mean come on, how cool is it to hear Joss chime in with his opinions?

Now back on topic…and maybe a question for the more experienced Slash fans, would you consider demon on demon action to be Slash? For example, The Gentlemen (Hush) decide to have an orgy. Is that slash or just gross?
Oooh, alexreager, I'll go with "just gross" on that one.
For example, The Gentlemen (Hush) decide to have an orgy. Is that slash or just gross?


Given their slow-moving, floaty tendencies, I'd probably say it's "tantric."

[ edited by Kristen at TimMinearNet on 2006-01-21 01:26 ]
Given their slow-moving, floaty tendencies, I'd probably say it's "tantric."

Ah, well, in that case they should probably invite Sting. ;)
Just saw this thread (amazing that I missed it before!). Interesting reading all the comments (especially Joss's), and seeing how civil it stayed.

But... In all these comments, has no one mentioned Xander and Spike?? (I skimmed near the end, so might have missed it). Definitely the pair with the biggest subtext I saw, and my own personal favorite pairing. Especially when Spike was living in Xander's basement. Love Buffy and Faith too. But I agree with several above - slash is all in the subtext and insinuation, not in the gory details, with everything spelled out....
I think Xander/Spike has been mentioned but I just can't believe no-one has brought up the Giles/Cheese Man possibilities. Talk about sizzle ;).

(actually, interestingly Giles hasn't been mentioned at all that I can find. Too dignified/stuffy/British ?)
Giles and Wesley, Giles and Angel..No. Not working for me either. Maybe Giles/Book?
Oh, there is an abundance of Giles slash out there. For us older, more discriminating lecherettes :)

And eddy? Giles/Wesley is hands-down the most popular.

[ edited by cronopio on 2006-01-21 01:51 ]
So these guys have murdered, raped and killed at a whim, devoured orphanages of children killed parents in front of their children, turned Holtz's daughter into a vampire and left her for him to have to kill, etc.
...and some of us say, -But No! No way would they stoop so low as to do THAT!!!

Personally, I thought Spike was just wisecracking, but, does it matter?
It's left to interpretation, and I'm glad.
...and some of us say, -But No! No way would they stoop so low as to do THAT!!!


I don't believe that anyone put it that way (I'd remember 'cause I would've had to warn them ;)). No one was saying it was evil or low, they said it wasn't in character.
Exactly, zeitgeist. Anyone that knows me knows that i have no problem with homosexuality (especially my gay friends, funnily enough) and i'm generally a really openminded person when it comes to sexuality, or anything else for that matter. If you enjoy it and you aren't hurting anyone else (unless they are asking you to, hehe) then it's fine by me.

If i actually thought that it was likely, based on what i'd observed in Angel and Spike over the years, that they might have ended up in bed together then that would be fine. However, in truth i saw nothing but a little innuendo and the occasional witty one-liner thrown around concerning their relationship. Nothing at all that would lead me to believe they really jumped in the sack together. Neither one of them ever showed any sexual attraction to any other guy on the show, in fact they both clearly very much enjoyed the opposite sex. Why would they be attracted to each other?

So if anyone reading this thread gets the impression that any of us (and i think i can speak for the majority here) have a problem with Angel and Spike being sexually intimate with one another, it's not about the act itself, just about how realistic we feel it would have been for it to have happened, considering how well we know the two vampires usual sexual preferences.
Coming late to the party, (so, what else is new?) but add me to the list of folks who are super-impressed by both the thought-provoking dialogue, and generous civility demonstrated above. You insightful, diverse, funny and fun smarty-pants are the reason I'm here, and what makes the black a premiere example of how the scary 'inter-web' can be used for thoughtful good. Kudos to you all.

And this? "Ah, well, in that case they should probably invite Sting." I laughed so hard, the water came out my nose.
And eddy? Giles/Wesley is hands-down the most popular.


Really? I'm certainly no slash expert by a long shot, but I would've placed my money on Giles/Ethan being the most popular pairing, since it's pretty obvious (not that I think there's anything there, but I don't think there's anything there in all these slash pairings - or other heterosexual non-canon pairings - so that's really not saying anything ;-)).
I seem to remember that Angel/Wes was a huge ship back in the first three seasons of Angel. They would have been a good couple. Especially the Dark Wes and Gray Angel versions.
Nobody at all has mentioned the Ben/Glory autoslash...
Gill - It should always be assumed ;)
I'm one of the fans that did see the Spangel subtext, loud & clear - and enjoyed it immensely.

And still do :)
I have to agree that the Xander/Spike moment in the Bronze in reaction to the question Nancy asks "Is there anyone here who hasn't slept with everyone?" and they look quickly at each other and away, is delightful. Do I believe it is anything but a shoutout to the shippers? No. But it was fun.
A quick mention here that anyone who meets me, who finds out my screen name here, assumes that it's a shoutout to the Spangel ship. Actually, it was, at the time of registration, just an attempt to squish into one name my favorite two characters. How naive was I (and to admit that at my advanced age)? Not that the Spangel angle isn't quite interesting, to say the least.
Great conversation folks - pretty civil and very extensive. Even the few misunderstandings were handled well.

As for me, my main complaint about the article that spawned our discussion is that it was solely focused on the male/male origins of the term slash. Ah the limitations of using Wikipedia as a reference source. While the author did predicate the article with that assumption, it really left too much out.

I don't think that I see the SpAngel sub-text in the shows, but it is a free country and you're welcome to see what you want or to fantasize. Heck, I'm not a fan of either Bangel or Spuffy, but that doesn't stop me from being a BtVS fan.

If I can offer my thoughts on the attraction of homosexual sexuality to a straight person of the opposite gender, it is that for me it means that there won't be parts that I don't want to see getting in the way of the parts that I do. If that's a bit vague, well I'm trying to be fairly discrete, so to put it another way - as a straight man I like looking at women, so a lesbian scene just means more women to look at.
First, I gotta say I just love you all. No where else in my world can I partake in a conversation that debates the plausibility of two totally fictional characters having sex. Yes, I know my world's no fun. That's why I play here.

Kudos for the civility of the conversations as well.

With that said, I also agree that valid points can me made for either side of the argument. Once again, Joss is the master at giving just enough to let people form their own conclusions.

But for the record, I say they did!

Pick your scenario. A dominant Angel subjects Spike to a "I'll show you who's boss" buggering or a the girls aren't here so what the hell. I don't find either too far fetched.
FWIW, I definitely agree that a continuum (rather than dichotomy) of sexual attraction exists (although I have a great deal of doubt about Kinsey's research more generally), but, yep, I think people are fixed at some point on that continuum - they're not sliding up and down it like manic hockey pucks (in that sense, I think the term "sliding scale" is a bit misleading).


Whereas I tend to think "sliding scale" is the perfect term for it given there's no hard and fast rules about how someone fits onto the 0-6 scale.

0- Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual
1- Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2- Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3- Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4- Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5- Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6- Exclusively homosexual

How do you define "incidentally homo/heterosexual"? And if you are bisexual (to which most people would assume equals "3"), there might be different times in your life when one side or the other dominates your perspective. For example: If you spend a number of years engaged mostly in heterosexual relationships and only occasionally engage in homosexual sex, you might be a "1". Later you may spend years in an equal number of homosexual and straight relationships - making you a "3". You might also "swing" to the other end of the scale :-)

Much of it is how a person indentifies, too. I know men who identify as gay that have had sex with women - and not merely in the "I'm a confused teenager" portion of their lives. And vice versa.

What I tend to see is that very few people indentify themselves as bisexual (which is another long discussion about a prejudice that gay and straight people can share), but most people are somewhere between 1 and 5 on the scale.

Or at least most people I know.

Which brings me to my thoughts on slash - and I mainly don't read it because fan fic doesn't interest me. I used to think that I disliked it because it wasn't canon but now I don't think slash violates canon any more than a fan fic story suggesting Xander likes to build model railways in his basement (worst fan fic idea evah!)
When it comes to fanfic I'm always looking for some really great sex scenes, the more explicit the better. I love reading erotic Spuffy and N17 Spike/Wes stories. I have no problem with Spangel but imo, Spes is just dead sexier.
I take off for a few hours and there are 57 more messages on here - and they aren't all short ones!

There's one thing I haven't seen anyone consider re: Angel/Spike, though it might not be the funny that Joss hinted at. Could Angelus have raped Spike as a way of asserting his dominance over him?

You mean just in this thread, right?


Yes, Willowy. At least I think so.... At least in terms of Joss's hint that there was something funny behind it...

Isn't super cool that Joss actually reads these posts? This gives me a lot of hope that when he makes the next Buffyverse project it will be what the majority of us want. By reading this website he is in tune with his fans. I like that a lot.


I would rather Joss not do what the majority of us want. I'm far more interested in Joss giving us something totally unexpected, because that's one of the things I love most about his work.
Whoops, Nebula1400, that wasn't moi. I do agree with you on loving the unexpected, though. A big Whedon trademark, that.

Query: Is it still unexpected when we expect that from him?
There are so many slash overtones running around Middle Earth, it’s hard to limit it to one couple.

!! They aren't slash overtones, Middle Earth is a different universe and the people are different. Sam and Frodo's talks about letting him carry the ring and help Frodo were just about Friendship, not about Sam loving Frodo or some other crap. Also the relationship between Legolas/Gimli and the scene with Aragorn/Boromir's death, was just about Aragorn assuring Boromir that he wasn't a bad person, and Legolas and Gimli were just friends, and that was accepted, in our society it would seem weird if they were so happily together etc. Not sure if I really got my point across, but the main thing I meant to say is that they weren't put there to be slash overtones, just to show the differences between our Universes/Worlds.

The whole section on Wolverine/Cyclops seems like it was [snipped], that buys comics for the pictures. And the Mal/Simon/Jayne post, seemed like [snipped]. Also the Clark/Lex section was full of stupid opinions and a lot of stupid and odd jokes were found throughout. I don't agree with that page much at all...

[ edited by SoddingNancyTribe on 2006-01-21 08:37 ]
It's been such a nice discussion here. I'm not sure that resorting to the word "retard" adds anything to our discourse.
So I got a chance to read through this thread this morning and then went back to working, writing my thoughts in pieces when I could. The crisis that won't go away came back and a guy who just doesn't want to believe what I am telling him calls me back again and won't get off the phone. I am late to pick up my son from after care and get us both to Tae kwon Do, but I figure I'll paste my thoughts before I leave work. Lo and Behold 77 messages have been added. WTH?

So here I am hours later finally caught up. ( Joss just had to post 5 minutes after I went back to work and I missed all the fun.) My thoughts seem fairly redundant. A little extra here or there. I'll attempt a summary.

1. Since "Destiny" I figured some sexual activity based on establishing Angel's dominance had taken place right at the beginning of the relationship. Not necessarily intercourse and probably not in a classic adult rape scenario. More Angelus manipulating him into submitting in some way that was meaningful to him like a charismatic cult leader might do with his followers. The flashback screamed abusive father/son relationship to me. With the line about wanting to shed the blood of innocents with another man not making him a deviant, sex is definitely in play.

2. I thought the "intimate" line was a wink from Joss, but also serious with in the context. I could see there having been some moment that Spike would consider particularly intimate at some time later in the relationship. I would see Spike as having more embarrassment about intimacy with Angel than sex with him.

3. I do not think they are pining for each other, and I don't think they ever have. It is a complex relationship with a deep bond that keeps Angel from staking Spike for similar reasons that he avoids staking Dru. They are his metaphorical children and he feels responsible for what they are.

4. I'm a straight woman who never even thought of gay porn as being a turn on. Interestingly the first porn I saw was hetero porn that I was taken to by gay men. Whatever this may have to do with anything, they didn't seem like they were suffering through it just on my account. ;-)

5. I agree, the thing I love about Joss's work is the light touch and ambiguity. The, you know, art stuff. I have read little to no fan fic or novels of TV shows for many MANY years. I am sure there is wonderful stuff out there, but it is not what I am interested in.

And whatever other people said, I agree with some of you and others, well, not really. But good for everybody for thinking way too much about this stuff and coming here to discuss it. A certain percentage of people must dream while awake or the dreams might not be exercised and ready to go when those who only dream when they are asleep are ready for them. After all that day dreaming we wouldn't want to explode from the pressure of all these ideas churning inside and have them burst into the regular world without warning. It could be dangerous. We are all doing a public service for ourselves and others.

You should pat yourself on the back now. Mods and Admins use both hands...pat your back and rub your stomach?

Believe it or not this was shorter than the original.

Sorry, bed now.

...I thought I was caught up, but now some more has been posted. What is a word like "retard" doing here. My mom taught special class. It is an ugly hurtful word that I had hoped people had become sensitive enough to stop using. I guess I was wrong. (sigh)

Not as nice thoughts as before to go to bed with...
Sorry all for letting that post stand unexamined for a while.

SeReNiTy_88, that kind of language is not acceptable on this board. Strong opinions are fine; strong language is fine, if not directed at individuals and exercised with some thought; strong language that is directed at individuals, and is an offensive usage into the bargain, is not fine.

And BTW, using the word "stupid" without any argument or support, is unhelpful, adds nothing to the discussion, and will probably receive few if any responses. Thanks.
I'm not actually that big on slash, but I don't see how it could be considered horribly out of character for Spike and Angel (or at least Angelus) to have had sex. Yes, they're both attracted to women. Having sex with someone of the same gender, especially "except the one" time, doesn't mean that you're gay, or even necessarily bisexual. Just watch "Destiny" again, where Angelus meets Spike for the first time, and tell me that Angelus doesn't come off as massively bi-curious. Angelus has had two women for awhile, so now he's wondering what it's like with a man. Suuuuuure he's just talking about drinking the blood of innocents, yep, that's why he asks Spike if he thinks that makes him a deviant. Angelus has been a vamp for a century, and is looking to try something new. Enter Spike. After those scenes in Destiny, can anyone honestly say that he didn't try out the new, impressionable, very handsome fledgling vamp, who was also curious about this big new world that he'd just entered? And that could explain why Spike keeps calling him "poofter," "nancy-boy," etc. in modern times, if he remembers Angel initiating sex. But that doesn't mean that Angel/Angelus is actually homosexual or bisexual, just Spikeasexual. And he wouldn't be the only guy who's a little gay for Spike.
What a fantastic thread to come home to after a loooong day. Thanks to all for the fascinating discussion, and as always I'm impressed by the way potentially inflammatory topics are handled with such exquisite care here.

As a huge fan of ST:TOS, I watched the original episodes and then the reruns throughout the '70's without the first awareness of what "subtext" was (thank you, Joss. That was your gift). But long before I saw my first xeroxed copy of "Spock Enslaved" in a Maryland SF bookstore, I definitely became aware of the depth of feeling Kirk and Spock shared with one another and was deeply, profoundly moved by it. It never made any difference to me what the bonds between the two of them might have been called -- whether that be undying loyalty borne of respect, affectionate friendship or mutual attraction of an unspecified nature -- in my eyes it still expressed itself as love. Did I think they were gettin' it on? No (though it would have been entirely OK with me if they were, as long as it was what they both wanted).

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think love as an elemental force is fluid, not solid, and infinitely more varied and complex than our human understanding can grasp. By its very nature it can't help but resist being confined to the boxes that we try cramming it into. The same with so many other pairings in the 'verse. Intended or not, the subtext is there, and in Angel and Spike's case it wasn't even sub. I can totally see the love there, even in their moments of rage -- because those moments of rage betrayed their depth of caring. Whether that makes me a "slasher" or not, I don't know. More boxes, bah. I just know what I've seen, and felt, and I'm convinced there's more than jokes behind Angel and Spike's history with one another, even without confirmation one way or the other.

Only indifference could be more telling, and there was never a moment of that, not from the instant William and Angelus first met. Think that smoldering fist Angelus held in the sunlight was only about asserting his macho bad-assness? Um... Take a look at Spike's face there -- not so much fear as the dawn of thrilled adoration. He knew what was about to happen, what meeting Angelus meant for his future trajectory, and he walked willingly toward it. (Being aware your life is about to change, drastically and inexorably, would generally scare the crap out of anyone -- but there are those who live for having the crap scared out of them. I'd say Angel was one of those from the beginning, and maybe Spike didn't realize he was until that moment.)

Not to say there wasn't tremendous antagonism in their chemistry together. Steel and flint could't help but make sparks, and an incredible rivalry, because each had finally met someone who could match the other's intensity. How could they have kept their hands off one another during those hundred+ years they spent together? (I know I couldn't.) As vampires, invisible in so many ways to the rest of the world, the only mirror they ever had that would have showed them any reflection was one another. (And what a pretty reflection it was! ;) Imagine the loneliness, that feeling of immeasurable inner void that even violence and the most depraved carnality couldn't fill. Even without a soul there had to be a need to be touched, to crave warmth in the absence of sun. (Angel, S2: "I just want to feel something besides the cold.") Bi-sexuality aside, Spike and Angel lived to the fullest because they had nothing to lose. When death is the worst thing that can happen to you and you "live" though it, accepting that you're evil and damned, what could possibly hold you back from experiencing anything else the world (and someone else) might have to offer?

I don't mean romance, because that and love are two different things. I never saw A/S as a hearts 'n' flowers kinda couple, but love? Hell yes. And hate. That's what made their fire together so palpable and real. It wasn't just brotherly affection that made Angel spare Spike on the sub (hee!) -- or ego, or shame. It was that among the four vampires, Spike had become (or maybe had always been?) the only one who could ever really come close to genuinely, truly understanding him, and understanding breeds love. Because it's possible that a man might not get everything he needs from a woman, even if he is predominately het, and certainly likely not if he isn't. Love doesn't care about gender, and Angel and Spike got something (un)life-sustaining from one another that no one else could give them, creating a connection that existed through death, then lasted though passionate agony for the same woman and beyond. If that isn't love, then what is? Jealousy, power-tripping, gamesmanship, petty squabbling, mockery, death threats, torture, sure, there was that. But if the core of their relationship was truly based on loathing, they wouldn't have ended up together after everything they'd been through.

My quibbles with slash, if I have any, are that so much I've sampled has been unsatisfyingly executed on a variety of levels. I also can't summon much enthusiasm for the hardcore descriptive stuff (where it's nothing but fleshiness for its own sake) or the goopy and (to me) implausibly romantic stuff at the opposite end of the spectrum. But give me a well-written story with realistic characterizations, where the definitions of love are more open and there's an honest, nuanced exploration of what feelings and attraction between two people (of whatever gender) can mean, and I'm all about it. I prefer the m/m dynamic, though there's some terrific Tara/Willow stories out there. I've read Spangel fic that left me ruminating and fantasizing for weeks. And Wes/Angel? Even without concrete evidence of more than shared glances passing between them, it remains my favorite UST-fic pairing, and one of the most sublimely written, heart-breaking relationships between two men I've ever seen on TV. (Seriously, the feeding scene in "Deep Down" alone...!)

Currently I'm rewatching AtS S5 for the first time since it was axed. Oh, for S6!

[ edited by Wiseblood on 2006-01-21 10:37 ]
There are so many comments here....I agree with a lot that has already been said, so will not repeat.

Just remember folks, these two guys hung together, lived together for eighteen years before Angel's ensoulment. There has to be depth, nuance and layers to the relationship that's only been hinted at. It's those depths that make the pairing interesting on so many levels.

So sex or no sex, does it really matter?
Okay, let me get this straight: I go to school for 7 hours, play practice for 2.5 and then I go see Brokeback Mountain when we are having our own slashy debate? Let me put in my two sense: I think it's almost ignorant to think that vampires don't swing both ways. I mean, does anyone remember Penn? Angel sired him, not Darla or Dru. And siring isn't exactly the most innocent of actions. Also, in "Sleeper", we see that Spike sired a whole group--men and women included. Obviously he was under the influence of TF, but it still happened. Also, lots of people have said that Spike and Angel don't like each other enough to have been lovers. Has anyone thought that maybe THAT'S the reason they don't like each other? So yeah, I think they've been together and more than just one time. Of course, I also think Buffy and Spike made love the night before they entered the Hellmouth. But isn't that the beauty of Joss' work? When he doesn't tell us, we decide for ourselves.
Well, I guess I read too much into your words - and I think you might have read too much into mine in finding a supposition about Spike that I hadn't intended. But cool that we've reached a place of agreement. I think.

I figured it out SNT, I was responding to someone else's post who made the comment about Spike, then you saw my post and responded to it as if I were making a completely different argument. I got confused thinking it was all part of the same discussion.
MySerenity, whilst i'm not going to suggest that there is nothing at all intimate in the act of siring, i really have never considered it to be a sexual act either. As far as when a vampire feeds on a human, i see that as a predatorial act regardless of the sex of the vamp and victim. The difference in siring, as you no doubt know, is that the victim must then feed on the blood of the vampire. However that does not necessarily have to be seen in a sexual way either. Look how Wes fed blood to Angel in Deep Down, allowing him to drink from his wrist. There was nothing sexual about that. Who is to say how the vampire feeds the victim during siring. I would imagine it would totally depend on the situation and the two individuals involved.

No, i really don't think that a vampire choosing to sire another vampire of the same sex is any indicator of them also choosing to get horizontal with their own gender too.
Well vampires are demons (allbeit the lowest of the low) so strictly speaking human sexuality doesn't come into it. They are a different species. Vampires with souls, on the other hand, are a completely different story.
Look how Wes fed blood to Angel in Deep Down, allowing him to drink from his wrist. There was nothing sexual about that.

Wow. My personal take is just the opposite. I thought it was intensely erotic, and it's certainly a slasher favorite. Isn't it grand that we're all so different?
See, I didn't read anything sexual into the Wes/Angel feeding either. Being completely honest I feel that that particular scene was actually actively devoid of anything erotic, but I figured that some would bring their own subtext to that :)

Isn't it grand that we're all so different?


Absolutely! Part of what makes things so fun and interesting around here.
Oops, killinj, I think that may have been me. Sorry to be the cause of confusion ;).

Having slept on it tho' I think you're right in that Spike was uncommonly (uniquely ?) able to exhibit tenderness and empathy even pre-soul (tho' I think he would find it hard to maintain especially if he wasn't getting exactly what he wanted). Which leads to the interesting question raised above (by EdDantes possibly among others - long thread hard to keep track ;) as to how Spike managed to keep so much of his humanity ? Is it even possible for an unsouled vampire to feel real love and affection, or is there just an inconsistency in Spike's characterisation ?
Saje, keep in mind Angel's indication in Doppelganger that vampires retain many of the characteristics of the humans they were. Then it all makes sense.
SNT, I find it amazing you guys can keep up with all these posts in the amazing time frame you do...or at all. I am always in awe of how on top of everything the mods and admins are here. Is it magic? No, I know better. Technology mixed with hard work. Thanks all. (I'm right, it's not really magic, right?)

Interesting thoughts. Wiseblood, I agree with your assessment of the scene of their first meeting in "Destiny." There is so much going on there I could agree with three or four people who all have slightly different interpretations. ;-) One of the things I thought I saw when Angelus gives William his invitation into his little group (The word harem keeps coming to mind, but that implies a little too much sexuality.) with all sorts of implications of things William would have never considered in life, was that moment of consideration before the realization that it all sounds good. It reminded me of the moment when William's mother had started to say that she hated to be cruel, but then realized it was no longer true. William also realized that something he would never have considered in life sounded exciting and he was ready to dive in with both feet.

Love is a tough word. I think there is a very strong bond between them and they are connected in different ways during their relationship. Each of them found something different about the other to connect to over the years as each of them changed. I am not sure I am convinced "love" really describes it, but it might have to suffice. :-D

I also didn't see the erotism in the Wes Angel feeding scene, but then I usually don't see Christ symbols either, unless I'm beaten over the head with them. What I saw was Wesley doing something that he would never have considered at one time, mainly as penance for his sins against Angel, and getting a small amount of peace from it. Now that I think of it there may be a Christ symbol in there somewhere. ;-)
Saje, i believe it has been stated by a number of the show's writers (maybe even Joss, although hopefully he will set me straight if i'm wrong here) that Spike has always been written as something of an anomoly among vampire, in that he took a lot more of his human feeling and emotion into his vampire existence than is usually possible for a being without a soul.

If anything does happen with a future Spike project i would love to see whoever ends up writing it elaborate on what it was that made Spike different and why he held on to so much of what many would describe as his humanity when turned into a demon.
cronopio: That's right, I remember that but I always thought of it as informing the traits they have as a demon rather than the vampire retaining aspects of humanity. E.g. Dopplegang Willow was 'kinda gay' but she was also fundamentally cruel and evil, something real Willow wasn't. I could, therefore, see Spike using the sensitivity he had as a human to, for instance, torture someone more effectively or faking tenderness to trap prey but I guess I just can't see how a vampire could have genuine tenderness and empathy and still be as evil as we know unsouled vamps to be (i.e. gayness and evil or shortness and evil are not mutually exclusive whereas, to me, genuine tenderness/empathy and evil are).

ETA: Ah, VWaG, I didn't know that. Yeah, it'd be really interesting to see that developed further. Hope springs eternal ... ;)

[ edited by Saje on 2006-01-21 19:33 ]
I think that the intense grief we wittnessed Spike expressing at the end of "The Gift" was not just him faking his emotions for some nefarious plan of some kind. Or when he brought flowers to Buffy's house after Joyce's death, he was not just using his sensitivity to trap the scoobs.

I think I could come up with numerous other examples of Spike exhibiting aspects of humanity that no other vampires, except souled Angel, were ever depicted as being capable of - but I think this thread is already getting pretty long!
Saje, in my mind it always sprang from from what I saw Joss's vampires to be. A stripped down version of the person with a demon pulling his/her strings. The human looses their conscience, and their moral inhibitions and are left with their desires. The demon uses those desires to instigate evil. Angelus desired power over other people and committed evil acts that involved domination and manipulation.

Spike desired the love of others, especially women, so his evil acts were often to get the approval and respect of the person of his desire, at first Dru, then Angelus and Dru. (I think Darla's respect was way too unlikely for him to even try. I'm with the person above who can see things happening with any combination of the four except Darla and Spike.)

That is why I don't see him as having kept so much more of his humanity than other vampires, just more of a type of humanity that made him more likely to be able to express things that other vampires could not when put in the rather unique circumstances in which Spike ended up. Another possibility is that either his demon was just not quite as strong as some of the others or that the demon let the humanity have more control once the chip had been in his head long enough to give the human part a chance to grow stronger.

In any case, I agree that if Buffy had rewarded Spike for tenderness, she would have gotten as much of it as he could have given. It would have probably been a kind of twisted tenderness, but his actions would definitely taken a different turn. Buffy was setting the rules in the relationship and he was willingly playing the game of her choosing. A friend of mine who has been in the mental health field for years and who has trained animals her whole life is driven crazy when she sees Buffy and the Scoobies throwing away chances to encourage the behavior they want from Spike. This is an extreme example.

Of course IMO, it is understandable why the traumitized Buffy of season 6 cannot or does not want to see that there is another way for this relationship to go. Admittedly, as Spike would have been only trying to give Buffy what she wanted so she would give him the love and repect he was always looking for, there would have always been limited possibilities unless he got his soul back, but what idiot would do something like that on purpose? Yeah, you guessed it, one whose main desire was to have the love of the object of his desire and thought that would get it for him. What can I say? It makes sense to me.

Oh, and can a thread be too long? ;-)
Another thing to consider in the story or other art forms: it doesn't have be intentional in order for it to be meaningful. Often times good writers create stories where even they don't see all the layers, symmetries, metaphors, imagery, etc. Joss's story about the trunk scene between Mal & Inara is a good example (in the Visual Companion Book for "Serenity").

Ergo, how we interpret these stories says more about ourselves, and if we care to listen, about others, too. And now if you'll excuse me, I have to go download some more gay porn fanfic.
I heart punkinpuss.
if the writers always meant fans to see unsouled Spike as an evil creature then they were certainly leading us down the garden path from INTERVENTION to TABULA RASA.

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-01-21 23:20 ]
cronopio said
I heart punkinpuss.

Me too.
And spikeylover...and gay porn fanfic ;)
Even prior to Btvs the very act of a vampire's bite, the penetration, has been viewed as sexual. If it can be viewed that way when it involves a man...pire and a woman I see no reason to not view it the same way if they are of the same sex.

I believe that this may have been a contributing factor to changing Spike's sire from Angelus to Drusilla. The act is a metaphor, or at least can be, for sexual intercourse. I can see the network not wanting to see Angelus siring Spike, given the heat JW got over the Willow/Tara kiss. Lesbianism seems to be more acceptable to the suits than gay sex, I guess. Shame that.
Even prior to Btvs the very act of a vampire's bite, the penetration, has been viewed as sexual.

Whereas in the Buffyverse, it is not the only way vampires can have sex. (The original mythology had the bite being a substitute form of penetration because, presumably, a vampire didn't have enough blood to get it up :-) But as Joss has said before - if vampires in the Buffyverse didn't get erections, the series would have lasted about twelve episodes.

And clearly Angel and Darla had regular intercourse to produce Connor... I guess. Can someone explain how that worked again? ;-)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it pre-ordained? Connor was a mystical conception because he was destined to impregnate Cordelia so Jasmine could come forth.

Wasn't that the deal?
First of all great thread. I agree on many things but, I, too, won´t repeat all of them, cause that would be just boring. But I´m on the Angel and Spike could have had sex side, cause:
1. I think it fits the characters and
2. We are talking Vampires here and not humans and therefore the whole sexual dynamic is somewhat different anyway.(at least to me)
For me there were a lot slashy undertones in all Joss shows but most of them are open to interpretation and I think its good that way.

@exoticmushroom: I think you are right with that two women cause less uproar than two men, thats one thing I experienced, too. ( in fandom and i real life) And honestly that leaves me puzzled, cause to me there´s no difference. Maybe someone here has an idea why gay men are different to the public than gay women?
Maybe someone here has an idea why gay men are different to the public than gay women?


Because historically women's sexuality wasn't taken seriously as they were second class citizens. Back in olden times if people did know about lesbianism, the percieved wisdom was that it was just a phase a girl went through. And to some extent the classic male chauvinist view that "all a girl needs is the right man and she'll be fine" still seems to hold true today. In certain cases there were people (for example Queen Victoria) who refused to believe that lesbianism even existed. And if women openly came out as lesbians, they were burnt at the stake as witches. That as many thought, would put them in their place.

Back then men were the dominant sex. Men set the rules and men were supposed to procreate and start a family. Gay men threatened these "rules" and were demonised as a result. That I think is why gay men are different to the public than gay women. Because gay men threatened the natural order of society and women didn't because they didn't matter in the grand scheme of things. And today, unfortunately those views are still here but they are no where as prevalent as they once were.

In decades to come, the view that a person is different because of their sexuality and should be discriminated as a result will be seen in the same light as the idea that the sun goes round the earth.
Leading us down the garden path? Now, Spikeylover, when would Joss ever do a thing like that?

In decades to come, the view that a person is different because of their sexuality and should be discriminated as a result will be seen in the same light as the idea that the sun goes round the earth.


Well said, Simon, and great explanation all around. I've been sitting here trying to figure out the best way to summarise these very same points. I think I would have rambled; you were much more precise.

The portrayal of gay women on television and in film is probably more prevelant because of who writes and produces television - men. Men continue to think they can control a woman's sexuality under the same old impression that all they need is a good man OR every woman is two drinks away from women-on-women action.

Compare these two timelines of kisses: Women kissing Women and Men kissing Men from AfterEllen.com and AfterElton.com respectively.

The first woman-on-woman kiss on U.S. television was 15 years ago on "L.A. Law" and through most of the 90s TV shows found reasons for girls to kiss - as a ratings stunt. Compare that to men-on-men action, where the first kiss was in 1997 on "Oz", barely 10 years ago. (Notice that "Oz" held the gay male fort for three years before "Queer as Folk" and "Will & Grace" came along.)

In the seven years that W&G have been on, I believe there has only been two male-on-male kisses, one between Will and Jack and the other between Will and one of his rare boyfriends. Only the gay male characters on HBO and Showtime got any regular action ("Oz", "Queer as Folk" and "Six Feet Under" are all gone.)

Woman-on-Woman kissing (as opposed to kissing lesbians, which is much rarer) continues to be a ratings stunt - although the advent of "The L Word" at least redresses that balance a little. Man-on-Man kissing is rare and never used as a ratings stunt (well, maybe on "Desperate Housewives" :-)

Note the Willow/Tara kisses are included in the timeline as well as Inara's kiss on "Firefly". I'll be in my bunk.
Oh, I've tried so hard to be restrained, as this post is getting so very long. But...

Here it is: One dick good. Two dicks better.

Yes, there is a huge difference between f/f and m/m. Picked up a stroke mag lately? They are full of f/f. It's mainstream at this point, because men like it. BECAUSE MEN LIKE IT.

M/M? More covert. And there are all kinds of pseudopsychological reasons about why. You wanna know my reason? ME, a heterosexual chick who loves slash?

Here it is: One dick good. Two dicks better.

If that's too explicit, I trust our mods will let me know.

[ edited by cronopio on 2006-01-22 03:24 ]

[ edited by cronopio on 2006-01-22 03:33 ]
OK.... posts I was going to respond to are now buried so deep, I can't find them anymore!

This is one of the best discussions I've ever seen here.

Here it is: One dick good. Two dicks better.

Except if they're both on the same guy. Then that's just weird and he's got twice the problem while in sweat pants.
ROTFL x 6, Nebula1400.
anindoorkitty: Yep, as you seem to be re-iterating, Spike certainly is an interesting anomaly among vampires. Hopefully we'll get to find out why sometime.

Simon said...

the view that a person is different because of their sexuality and should be discriminated as a result will be seen in the same light as the idea that the sun goes round the earth.


Let's hope so. Tho' the pessimist in me would bet my last pound that we'll have found something else to persecute each other over by then.

Nebula1400: Lol. And if you think it's hard to hit the bowl at night with one imagine it with two, err, diverging opinions ;)

Good thread everyone, controversial and civil are such a rare combination these days ;).
"Good thread everyone, controversial and civil are such a rare combination these days ;)."

As this thread passes into yesterday's news, I wanted to add my own kudos to all as well. This was a wonderful thread, full of well thought out and thought provoking commentary, loved it!
@Simon: Thank you for your answer and yes it sadly makes sense. I do hope the same as you, cause humanity has sure passed the middle ages!

@Keith G : I did some thinking why this thing was so particular strange to me and when I read your answer about the kisses on TV I think I knew why. It´s because here in Germany its exactly the other way around: The first gay kiss they showed on TV was a male/male kiss in the soap "Lindenstrasse" ín 1990. I was 9 years old back then, but I do still remember because it caused much uproar here. As for the first female gay kiss, I really can´t remember but nowadays there are surely more lesbian relationsships on german TV as male gay ones ( if any at all), so I think they picked up on the US trend. Anyway off to bed cause it´s 5 in the morning here! Yuck!

edited to add the year- sheesh me= sleepy

[ edited by Kessie on 2006-01-22 06:00 ]
In decades to come, the view that a person is different because of their sexuality and should be discriminated as a result will be seen in the same light as the idea that the sun goes round the earth.

Not so much having the Intelligent Design v. Evolution problem on your side o' the pond, are you?
Kessie wrote:
I did some thinking why this thing was so particular strange to me and when I read your answer about the kisses on TV I think I knew why. It´s because here in Germany its exactly the other way around: The first gay kiss they showed on TV was a male/male kiss in the soap "Lindenstrasse" ín 1990.


Well because the discussion was about U.S. television (as it usually is around here, not surprisingly), that's where my focus was. I live in Australia and the tendency these days is to be somewhat conservative on television - or use girl-on-girl action as a stunt as well.

But Australia showed men kissing men and women kissing women and full frontal nudity of both genders on television back in the 70s. It's acknowledged in queer circles that a character on the Australia series "Prisoner" (known elsewhere as "Cell Block H") was the first regular lesbian character on a TV series in the world.

In the early 80s our TV got conservative in these regards (though HBO series all show on our free-to-air networks unedited, except for "Deadwood" - although I suspect that has to do with a cable net getting the rights first).
LOL when Allyson said:
Not so much having the Intelligent Design v. Evolution problem on your side o' the pond, are you?


Did you have to bring it up, Allyson? Maybe if we didn't tell them, that embarassing fact might have gone unnoticed over there..? ;)
Add me to the list of "good job on civil and interesting discussion, y'all!" :-)

Yeah, it might be hard to believe overseas, but the results of the last American election might have been because some people were so afraid that men would be able to marry men that they voted for some very hate-based laws, and maybe let it sway their choice of who to vote into office. I'd rather live in the world Simon sees:
In decades to come, the view that a person is different because of their sexuality and should be discriminated as a result will be seen in the same light as the idea that the sun goes round the earth.

Xander: Sometimes I think about two women doing a spell... and then I do a spell by myself.
Just an interesting factoid. According to many articles I've seen on slash fanfic, most of the slash writing is done by hetero women. Fascinating /Spock.

From my experience even married women write slash. I don't have time to read much of it, but I was impressed with what I have read.
I'm surprised no one has commented on the homerotic subtext (or perhaps lack of) in Firefly

I am starting to devote some of my art to slash pairing in Firefly. Does that make you feel fetter? :)

There is a thriving world of slash fan fiction and slash fan art, I was surprised how much until I joined the ranks. Now and then I do offer up piece of slash fan art of Joss characters. All I can say is all good, all fun and not to be taken to seriously.
There is a thriving world of slash fan fiction and slash fan art

Do you have any links to slash fan art?
Now, to think of something good to write in reply #200: Oh, I know! "This thread is a lot more fun to read than the one about the plan to try to license Firefly rights!" More on the topic, I would guess slash fanfic is exactly the same as any other shipping fanfic: some really well done, some not as well done, some not worth reading. Like Patpaws said, "all good, all fun and not to be taken seriously!"
Do you have any links to slash fan art?

Funny, you should ask. I have an adult group featuring characters from Buffy/Angel/Firefly.

I will be launching an adult fan art site shortly, featuring, of course, Buffy/Angel/Firefly. There are some fine art manipulators out there and Joss has given us such great characters to work with. While this may not be everyone's cup of tea, it's always fun to share.

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