Whedonesque : Comments on 9323 : The Top Twelve Slashiest Couples in SciFi/Fantasy Fandom.

Ridiculous concept. Fan fiction is all well and good, but this is just moronic.

And I think they've read a little too much into the 'Well there was that one time...' comment.

Umm yeah, I don't think "Well there was that one time..." necessarily translates into "they had intercourse". Assume much?

supersymetry | January 20, 13:51 CET

Agreed. At first I thought I must've missed an episode of Buffy or Angel (which is, well, impossible). Only then did it hit me they were probably taking about the "Well there was that one time..." comment.

GVH | January 20, 14:17 CET

Well, in the DVD commentary (I think for that episode), Joss said something like "You know, they're two open minded guys. I'm sure at some point they decided to give it a try." Unfortunately, a Google search isn't turning up the exact quote, but I thought it was pretty clear that they were supposed to have had a sexual encounter at one point.

gilraen | January 20, 14:25 CET

You don't have to read fanfic to appreciate slash. Joss put those references in there on purpose with a wink and a nod for us to enjoy and enjoy I did!

killinj | January 20, 14:27 CET

Joss wasn't saying it happened, he was saying "who knows?" (and largely kidding). Anyway, I don't see anything wrong with slash. It's only fanfic, let people's imaginations take them where they may.

jam2 | January 20, 14:37 CET

Thinking back on it, it seems quite likely that in all their years of vampiring around together, with Dru and Darla, that something might well have happened. The fact that it would have gone against the morals of the day would make it more interesting for them.

Lioness | January 20, 14:39 CET

That and I'm sure once a person is turned into a vampire, they would lose most if not all of their human inhibitions etc.

Simon | January 20, 14:41 CET

I took the references as something may have happened between them but, I just don't imagine them going "all the way". Of course, I could be wrong. It is open to interpretation. :)

supersymetry | January 20, 14:44 CET

They had the "except that one....." comment in PP. It's canon folks. Sorry if you don't like it, but to have it confirmed like that makes it so. It doesn't have to be shown on screen.

In fact, Spangels are easily pleased. We were extremely happy with just having it confirmed on screen and becoming canon.

JW's commentaries have said that of course they did it, they were (his words) "all kinds of deviant" and did people really think they never did. He even said that Spike was Angel's engenue (I've spelt that wrong, sos.) and that they finally found the right girl for Angel, Spike.

Spangel rocks. ;0)

exoticmushroom | January 20, 14:48 CET

I figure it was all a big four vampire orgy.

spikeylover | January 20, 14:57 CET

I can't read the article, ign is blocked at work. Who is the they we are speaking of?

war_machine | January 20, 14:59 CET

Well at number 11.

Simon/Mal or Jayne (Firefly/Serenity)
Even though Mal loves Inara, even though Simon loves Kaylee, and even though Jayne loves his grenades, slashers still manage to get boys together. The adorable little doc Simon seems to be evenly paired between Mal and Jayne (the man-skank!), so it’s really hard to pick one over the other. If you were Simon, why would you want to?

And at number 3.

Angel/Spike (Buffy: The Vampire Slayer/Angel)
Opposite personalities? Check. Bitter rivals? Check. Feuding over a similar lover? Double check. High school angst? Triple check. What makes this couplet far more interesting than the ones lower on the list, is that even though Angel and Spike are bitter enemies, they still are almost always on the same side. Whether it’s season 2 of Buffy or season 5 of Angel, they always manage to join together for a gay ol’ time. These two would have been the best of friends if not for Drusilla or Buffy. And, the interesting thing about this couple—they’re the only one on the list to (canonically) have intercourse with one another.

Simon | January 20, 15:03 CET

There is NO way that Spike and Angel are supposed to have had actual intercourse. Gimme a break. Someone above mentioned a Vampire orgy with Darla and Dru, that make sense. Maybe some hands went to wierd places. I mean really, the way they feel about each other there is no way they would do that. Thier charactors are not written that way at all. To suggest that is cannon that they went all the way to intercourse?? Thats seems a little overboard. There is nothing to back that up, so how is it cannon?

Saskbuffyfan | January 20, 15:42 CET

Wasn't "The Immortal" the only one to have Darla and Dru concurrently? Also, Spike was awfully upset when Angel was messing around with Dru. While orgies(?) might be a big part of the vamp lifestyle. I just think these 4 had too many issues with each other. Especially, Spike and Angel.

supersymetry | January 20, 15:43 CET

Ah, now I see the uproar. I'm not entirely sure it's cannon either. It's a possibility I suppose. There was a period imediately after they were turned when they didn't hate each other, but it was never implicitly stated as such.

I find it odd that IGN of all places has an article about this.

war_machine | January 20, 15:46 CET

I love the belief that it's not real sex/doesn't count unless it's penetrative intercourse.

This was just a bit of fun, and it would be nice if people could be relaxed enough about sexuality to take it that way. So to speak.

I'd better go now, before I start making jokes about sticks up bums. ;)

roadrunner | January 20, 15:59 CET

Man, how are Clark and Lex only at No. 5 ? Forget fan-fic, I think the show itself is written/played as slash sometimes. I remember one ep. where Clark discovers that Lex, wealthy international playboy that he is, has had one night stands in the past (colour me astonished ;). The actors seemed to have great fun playing it as a jealous lover's tiff.

Re: Spike/Angel. From the few hints in the shows, I think it's fairly clear they had some kind of intimate encounter tho' whether they went all the way or not is pretty hard to tell (the over-enthusiastic orgy explanation seems plausible). Don't really see it being a big deal anyway, vampirism and alternative sexual practices seem to go fairly hand in hand to me.

Saje | January 20, 16:04 CET

I see the fascination with slash, but I don't really get it. To me, these guys are, ultimately, heroes. The heroes don't bugger each other in my world. Funny too, that I have absolutely zero trouble with Willow and Tara's relationship. I adore them.

To each his/her (or his/his, her/her) own, I guess! ;)

Willowy | January 20, 16:05 CET

Personally I always agreed with the author -- God knows where I read it -- who postulated that since Angelus was turned in the era of de Sade and William was turned in the era of masochism, it was quite likely that Angelus used "sex as a weapon" to keep his new little fledge in line. No mutual consent involved. Their sexual relationship was all about power. And this I can quite believe given their rancor/bond towards each other to this day.

Miss Edith | January 20, 16:15 CET

I personally love that innuendo on the shows lets people so easily imagine what might have happened out of sight. Not so happy that some get so twitchy about the possibility, although, I realize that even in the real world it's a hot issue that many aren't comfortable with. I agree with quotes from Whedon and JM, that hey, they were deviant, so crossing some lines probably wasn't a big deal to them. Did it really happen? Obviously in canon, 'something' did and like roadrunner mentioned, doesn't have to be the full out deal to have something happen. Of course, the US has had one of it's own leaders define exactly what is sex and what isn't, so it's bound to lead to some confusion! :)

I think in the ep with the Immortal, Spike said something like, "Hey, they never let us do that!" implying that no group romps had happened, but since we also know that Angelus slept with Drusilla, who's to say what other swapping may or may not have occured?

Also, when Spike said, "There was that one time..." Illyria had used the exact word 'intercourse,' and Spike obviously took it to mean something other than what Illyria meant. To me that was a pretty blatant hint on what Spike and Angelus' past activites 'may' have included. Even more interesting to me is how much fanfiction had taken to the slash and that pairing, long BEFORE that comment ever aired.

I love that the shows are good enough that the fans can imagine all sorts of possibilities. While with some of their examples listed I can't quite picture the pairings, I'm not as immersed in those shows/stories as Buffy/Angel and therefore not as aware of the more subtle aspects/hints/clues.

[ edited by Grace on 2006-01-20 17:17 ]

Grace | January 20, 16:16 CET

The only thing that surprises me about Spike and Angel is it was only 'that one . . .' Yeah, right. I think Spike must have been about to say 'only that one-hundred thousand times we shagged each other senseless:-) The guys are obviously head over heels about one another. And Mal and Jayne, Clark and Lex . . . mmmmm. I think Spangel should have been higher on the list, though, as we actually have confirmation from their creator that it really did happen.

Willowy, are you saying gayness precludes heroism? Because I'd have to disagree.

Saje, re: Clex, did you see last night's episode? Lex: 'Clark has really nice hair.' My husband just looked at me and rolled his eyes, saying, 'I know, I know.' :-)

[ edited by lynnie on 2006-01-20 17:35 ]

lynnie | January 20, 16:17 CET

My last comment on this (aren't you glad) For me, I have no problem with the thought of the sex (between Spike & Angel) happening other than it just doesn't seem to fit in with the characters. I also don't think that intercourse is the only "real" type of sex. I can imagine them having some type of "heat of the moment" contact, then jumping back and wondering what the heck they were doing (with him?). I just don't see them actually fully embarking with one another. But, that's just my opinion and I'll stop now ;)

supersymetry | January 20, 16:18 CET

"The heroes don't bugger each other in my world."

Presumably your world is missing quite a lot of historical hero figures then, Willowy, from Alexander the Great onwards.

The heroes in my world are people who stand up to bigotry of any kind.

roadrunner | January 20, 16:32 CET

Okay, first of all: the vampires are deviant, so they're bound to have gay sex (intercourse or no intercourse) argument I'm seeing here strikes me as at least odd. People don't have to be deviant to have gay sex and being deviant doesn't autmatically equal gay sex. I'm sure no one was trying to imply otherwise, but it just stuck me as odd.

Having said that, I don't believe that Spike and Angel had sex. It's just not what those characters are about. Personally I don't tend to see the subtext, which I think is only there if you really want it to be. Spike's comment doesn't make it cannon. He was joking, being playfull. He might have even been serious, but I don't see that as actual confirmation. And even then it might have meant something onesided, for instance. 'Well, there was this one time when I was spying on Angel having sex and found myself liking it'. Or about 100.000 other possibilities. One misty reference, which might have been said jokingly, doesn't make for a definitve sexual relationship between these characters. It doesn't discount it either, but I'd say all options are still open for debate.

I have no problem with gay relationships on any show. I even have no problem with slash fiction. I don't like to read it, because I'm not so much into fantasising about the sexual lives of the male characters on my favorite shows (I don't even do that with the female characters - or well, at least not often ;-)), but that doesn't mean I'm not fine with the fact that it happens.

What I do not believe though, are comments like these:

The guys are obviously head over heels about one another.

Now maybe this was said jokingly and even if it wasn't, everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion, but this I'd have to very much disagree with :-)

GVH | January 20, 16:34 CET

In fiction, guys. Fiction. That's just my preference. Since I'm hetero, I like my heroes to want/get the girl. Something wrong with that?

Willowy | January 20, 16:37 CET

GVH, I see what you're saying about 'deviant' although it just really means to depart from the norm. The word doesn't necessarily have a negative connotation, but it's undeniably associated with badness in common usage.

Re the 'that one' line, I really don't think Spike was joking. He was almost talking to himself when he said that line, and, anyway, it's not like Illyria would get a joke.

Also, I really do think Spike and Angel loved each other. Did you see the episode where Illyria staked Spike? Then the repeat of the scene where Angel jumped in front to save him, and the look on Spike's face when he did? If that isn't love, I don't know what is. They bickered like an old married couple, and certainly had a boatload of issues, but (just my opinion, though backed up by both Joss and the script:-) I think they had more than just a platonic relationship, at least at some point in their acquaintance.

Willowy, I'm also hetero, but I'm just satisfied if my hero gets whomever makes them happy:-)

[ edited by lynnie on 2006-01-20 17:50 ]

lynnie | January 20, 16:48 CET

Technically Spike and Angel would be bisexual anyway. I love me my heroes be they straight, gay, bi or celibate.

GVH When Spike said that line he said it almost to himself rather than to Illyria. It was an acknowledgement of an intimate time, not said playfully at all.

I'm curious about the approach to the canon thing though. I mean people have said that if Joss says it's canon it's canon, end of story. But in this case Joss says it's canon and people are saying yeah, well, nah, he's kidding around. Can't have it both ways.

In Destiny Angelus was clearly jealous that William wanted to spend time with Dru and not him. That's why he "taught him a leasson" by going with Dru. He was hurt by William's rejection. You can't hurt feelings that don't exist, and his were hurt.

Must say I'm suprised by some comments here. Each to their own and all that but....

exoticmushroom | January 20, 16:50 CET

I don't get why Spike and Angel having rivalry, or any other issues, would preclude them from physically enjoying each other. Lust wouldn't stop for 'issues', they revel in bloodlust, the kill and the passion of violence together. Feelings don't come into it - want, take, have.

I'm not much for the Spangel love, but I'm suprised Buffy/Faith didn't make it. Slash isn't a purely male thing so why the list all boys?

lone fashionable wolf | January 20, 17:01 CET

"People don't have to be deviant to have gay sex and being deviant doesn't autmatically equal gay sex. I'm sure no one was trying to imply otherwise, but it just stuck me as odd. "

You are absolutely right. When I used deviant, I meant that pretty much anything the boys and girls were getting up to as vamps was considered deviant, against what was considered the moral norm for the times, especially 'back in the day.' Sorry if it became confusing and came across as homosexuality equals deviant. Although, even today, homosexuality is still considered that by some. So I suppose it's still on the fringes of what's considered morally okay by the masses. I don't have issues with it; it could be my heroes, my neighbors or me, doesn't matter.

In the context of that list, I lean towards the concept that Whedon and company were (or are) writing stories that are trying to fit into today's society, of course sexuality is a topical issue where the lines are sometimes fuzzy.

Grace | January 20, 17:04 CET

Just wanted to say kudos to all for keeping this a civil and mostly light-hearted discussion. Keep it up, folks :)

lonefashionablewolf - slash was initially/traditionally (going back to the K/S ladies of Star Trek), boys on boys, so to a purist the lack of femmeslash wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

zeitgeist | January 20, 17:09 CET

AtS and BTVS are full of homoerotic references! When Angel is called a "little" fairy by Spanky he merely responds that he isn't little. Doyle is a little attracted by Angel's swirling coat and dark brooding mystery , Xander thinks Spike is sort of compact and well muscled causing Buffy to jokingly suspect that whilst * she* isn't sleeping with him Xander might be, Wes and Angel are mistaken for gay dads, Spike tells Willy that he's taking Angel for dinner and a movie because he's been hurt before ... then there's the St Petersberg handholding and the whole " One time" and Joss's comments in the commentary. It's a slasher's paradise and all good clean fun.

Personally I'd have put them at number one!

West Hollywood here we come!

debw | January 20, 17:18 CET

Just an interesting factoid. According to many articles I've seen on slash fanfic, most of the slash writing is done by hetero women. Fascinating /Spock.

Znachki | January 20, 17:24 CET

Somewhat agree with GVH - it's the possibilities left open that I love. To hold that Spike and Angel simply shagged each other rotten destroys those possibilities and makes all-too concrete a relationship that is beautifully ambiguous. And "fuzzy," as Grace says.

That said, I think we're told they had an intimate encounter - to me, Spike's line more or less says as much, - and I think it's a little disingenous to think that doesn't mean they had sex. But to read some overpowering lust/love/infatuation into that and a few other scenes seems a little more than the shows as a whole can bear.

Why I don't read fanfic (any kind) is that it tends to make way too explicit what is only implied or hinted at. Every feeling or impulse becomes a sex scene, or a relationship, or melodramatic passion. And, you know, "homoerotic" (and hereto-erotic) references are somewhat in the eye of the beholder, and somewhat in the nod and wink of the writer. When tension or buddiness or whatever between two men has to translate to "they want to shag," it's a little reductive, IMO. Sometimes a cigar is just . . .

The difficulty with saying that it's canon that Angel and Spike had sex (even though I think they did) is that the show doesn't actually tell us that in so many words. And, just a personal view, Joss telling us "this is what I meant by this" in a commmentary or interview, isn't canon - only what is written or shown.

But I'm not going to be upset by others' delight in the idea - it ain't my show. :)

SoddingNancyTribe | January 20, 17:26 CET

I'm surprised no one has commented on the homerotic subtext (or perhaps lack of) in Firefly.

Simon | January 20, 17:27 CET

Wow I'm kinda surprised at some of the uproar and the...well, surprise on this thread. Slash is everywhere. It was years ago when I already came across some Buffy/Faith slash. And no, it's not my thing (I like it when we stick to actual characterization) but if it IS your thing then I can see how it would be fun.

The little thing between Angel and Spike was clearly Joss' little wink to the slashers, showing he's aware of them, but that 'intimate' remark can be taken a million ways if you want to get nitpicky. And if you want to take it sexually my money'd be on the big 4-way. (To me personally it just fits the characters better) The thing is that Angel and Spike were rarely friendly and the times that they were it was still all machismo, so I just can't see how either of them would want to be the 'bottom' so to speak. But that's just my view.

If I was into slash I'd be arguing the other way, obviously;-)

As for the 'vamps are deviants' remark: that doesn't necessarily have to mean homosexuality is deviant in the eyes of that speaker. It can just mean that someone is not gay as a human, and might be very inhibited. Well, then the transformation into evil vamphood might change that and make them more willing to try al kinds of stuff. Including gay sex. Maybe not being really gay would then give gay sex a sense of 'different' and 'unfitting' to their normal personality that would make them enjoy it now, seeking the 'deviant' in that personal sense. Seen like that it's more a comment on vamp nature then any real observation about homosexuality itself.

Anyhoo everybody has their views on characters. To me Angel and Spike have such a bossy big brother/pesky little brother relationship that I can't really feel any sexuality there. Both Buffy and Faith are so frikkin' straight and into guys I can't feel any lesbian vibes. (Which is kinda how I personally prefer them anyways, hehe) But I can totally understand others seeing it differently. Eye of the beholder and all. And what's wrong with that? If you don't like slash, don't read it. If you do, then do.

The only show where I ever really saw big, deliberate 'subtext' between two originally straight characters was in Xena, but even on that show they never *really* went there a 100 %. I think they were aware of their big lesbian following and tried to give many different people what they want and just played the middle. But there are definite little nudges in many shows nowadays, which shows at least writers know their different fandom segments.

(Btw what fascinates me most is how many straight women are into gay men sex.)

EdDantes | January 20, 17:31 CET

Ed - (in re: women being the predominant producers/consumers of male/male slash) I think that , as is so often the case with guys digging on the femmeslash/lesbian pr0n/whatever, on some level its just 'twice the salty goodness' plus 'somethings missing in this picture, and I have that missing something right here in my pants, so let me just step into this scene'.

ETA - I'm with SNT on this. The nod and the fuzziness is what's fun about it. Making it concrete either way kills the magic.

zeitgeist | January 20, 17:51 CET

OK, so we know what we're talking about here, I went and transcribed the relevant excerpts. First, from "Power Play":

Illyria: A corrupted ruler on such a path sees treachery and betrayal all around him. He cannot suffer intimates. He will eventually turn against them.
Spike: Guess I don't have to worry about that 'cause Angel and me have never been intimate. Except that one--
Illyria: Mark me. [etc.]

And from the commentary for "A Hole in the World" (prompted by the "St. Petersburg" wire trick):

Joss: The boys were very comfortable about holding hands. There was no talk about how that was weird.
Amy: We were wondering in the later episode when James tells me, when we see Drogan again, um, when he's like "Well there was that one time" when he's talking about being gay, with Angel...
Joss: Yes, um...
Amy: He was wondering if it was this moment, since you had written both lines, or if it was referencing another point in time.
Joss: You know, um, I just wanna say Angel and Spike, they were hanging out, uh, for years and years and years, they were in, you know, all kinds of deviant, they were vampires... Are we thinking they never...? Come on, people. I'm just sayin'. I'm just sayin'. You know, they're open-minded guys. They may be evil but, you know, they're not bigoted or closed-minded. No, the handholding was, was a deliberate kind of over the top "look how together they are" and yes, inevitably it causes some people to think... but uh, it was, it was mostly about the wire gag, but also [interrupted]
Alexis: Which came as a complete surprise to me, I thought that was a great device.

So that's what was said, for the record.

My take is it's not canon that they had sex (nor is it canon that they didn't). Even when Spike says "Except that one--", it still feels (having just watched it) like he's being Spike and cracking wise, even if he's only talking to the humorless Illyria. So I'm not saying they never did it, but I certainly don't think it's canon from what is said. Even Joss seems to be saying he was just kidding around. I think he deliberately wanted to tease the idea, leave it open-ended, let people use their imagination, and have us discuss it ad nauseam. =)

jam2 | January 20, 17:52 CET

(Btw what fascinates me most is how many straight women are into gay men sex.)

No more surprising than all the men that love the 'girl on girl' action!
And what, you expect lesbians to be into gay man porn??? :~P

Rogue Slayer | January 20, 17:58 CET

Honestly, what's most fascinating is that every post here tells me more about the poster than about the subject matter. That's what makes fiction grand. I will say a few things:

1)When I called James "the best ingenue Angel ever had" I merely meant that there was enormous acting chemistry between them. After throwing different actresses up against David (sometimes literally) it was gratifying to find someone who brought out passion in David's performance that I'd never seen. I mean, look at Caveman vs Astronauts, for god's sake! David is off the charts hilarious. I learned early on to film those two in one-ers instead of regular coverage because their energy just kept increasing. Others have misinterpreted that quote before.

2)What may or may not have happened is entirely up to the viewer, that's what makes it art. Having said that, I know EXACTLY what happened and it's funny that I'm never going to tell anyone. But did no one see the obvious smoldering passion between the Blue Hand guys? MAN, did you guys miss the boat.

3)In my world, heroes bugger each other senseless. Not all of them, but more than you'd think, and probably not who you're thinking. But seriously, Anybody here care to tell Apollo and the Midnighter how a hero should behave? To their faces?

joss | January 20, 18:00 CET

Thanks for joining in, Joss :) /awaits the Hands of Blue Slash... Always good to have an Authority ref, too.

ETA - for those who don't know:

# Apollo, an openly-gay Superman pastiche with solar-powered abilities. He is married to Midnighter.
# Midnighter, an openly-gay Batman pastiche whose enhancements are intended to make him the world's most dangerous fighter. He is married to Apollo.

see: wikipedia and gay league for more on Apollo/Midnighter.

zeitgeist | January 20, 18:01 CET

Ed - I think that, as is so often the case with guys digging on the femmeslash/lesbian pr0n/whatever, on some level its just 'twice the salty goodness' plus 'somethings missing in this picture, and I have that missing something right here in my pants, so let me just step into this scene'.

Zeigeist I couldn't agree more. It's a cultural 'known' that guys are into lesbian sex, but as you point out, they're not REALLY into lesbian sex. What they're into is having sex with two women who also....uh do stuff...to each other. A guy with two real lesbians would probably turn out like with Ross on friends: at first he watches all excited, then after 10 minutes he goes to make a sandwich! Real lesbian sex doesn't include us fellas! That's what makes it *lesbian*!

(Probably why I was never really into it as most of my fellow men are....)

But that still doesn't explain what straight women see in male slash because I don't think they're all automatically picturing the threesome there...

My take is it's not canon that they had sex (nor is it canon that they didn't). Even when Spike says "Except that one--", it still feels (having just watched it) like he's being Spike and cracking wise

Also, he doesn't say anything about sex. He says 'intimate', which probably very deliberatedly can mean many things.

I think it's like that shot of Spike and Buffy in the cellar in 'Chosen'. Joss said that if you want to think they had sex, you can do so, because it's possible. If you want to think they cuddled, you can do so. If you want to think they talked, etc. Some stuff they really leave up to the individual watcher. So everyone, interpret at your heart's delight....

EdDantes | January 20, 18:03 CET

There's a joke here about the gloves the Blue Hand guys wore, but I'm not coming up with it. Thank goodness. ;-)

jam2 | January 20, 18:04 CET

And then I see The joss has posted while I typed and has already said the same things but like, better and with more authority and stuff.

Happy and redundant at the same time.....;-)

EdDantes | January 20, 18:06 CET

I'm trying to resist the urge to make that joke, jam2, really I am ;)

zeitgeist | January 20, 18:07 CET

I'm surprised no one has commented on the homerotic subtext (or perhaps lack of) in Firefly.

That's because Mal/Simon is practically text, especially in the movie. ;) (Though nowhere near the level of say, Scrubs, where JD/Turk is almost supertext. :) )

The long smoldering looks at each other, the way they're always so physically close to each other, the way Mal shoves Simon onto that table...

KernelM | January 20, 18:07 CET

Ah, confirmation from on high...of...something. Or nothing....

Rogue Slayer | January 20, 18:07 CET

I know I said I would shut up, but this is such a rousing debate. I'm drawn back in. LFW - I don't think that the "lust" ultimately decides everything the vamps do. Spike told Xander he wouldn't bite him and Willow that he would. So there must be some thought and choice in the matter (regarding biting,sex or whatever). Now, I've seriously got to leave this alone and start working :)

ACK, after posting this my screen refreshed and lo and behold there is Joss :0 Now, I know I need to shut up!

[ edited by supersymetry on 2006-01-20 19:28 ]

supersymetry | January 20, 18:11 CET

But that still doesn't explain what straight women see in male slash because I don't think they're all automatically picturing the threesome there...

Ed - Oh, the cliche is that they want to explore the emotional intimacy and vulnerability implicit in such pairings, but we all know that that's secondary to hot salty goodness ;) Plus, that explanation seems a sort of tacit insult as it is often tied up in the idea that these heroes aren't in touch with their own minds/feelings and it just eventually boils over uncontrollably. Not only the heroes in question, but men in general, which I find insulting in the same way as I find the horror archetype of the scared blonde victim girl insulting.

ETA - two by two, glands of blue, anyone?

zeitgeist | January 20, 18:13 CET

Oh, the cliche is that they want to explore the emotional intimacy and vulnerability implicit in such pairings, but we all know that that's secondary to hot salty goodness ;)

Um, I don't give a flying fig about men's feelings in slash. I just want 'em to ~~get it on~~ show me some more salty goodness.

Rogue Slayer | January 20, 18:15 CET

Ah, the refreshing wind of honest self-assessment blows through ;)

zeitgeist | January 20, 18:16 CET

Wow, Joss' world is almost like Neal Stephenson's world, where historically notable scientists all buggered each other senseless. I still have not forgiven Neal for that whole "umlaut" exchange in Cryptonomicon!

Mort | January 20, 18:18 CET

Ah, the refreshing wind of honest self-assessment blows through ;)

Life's too short to lie to yourself! And come on...salty goodness...

But really, my main reason for not wanting to see 'sweet emotion' is that it makes it more realistic for me. I can't even fathom Angel and Spike being kind and tender to each other, but rough, angry action...totally.

Rogue Slayer | January 20, 18:20 CET

Supersymetry: It is all pointless really, but yeah isn't it fun to speculate on this stuff? As to your point, true, true, but let's not forget Spike is a bit of an anomaly in that he kept so much humanity. (Always found it interesting Angel never really eats human food, while Spike does all the time. And boozes of course.)

Plus, that explanation seems a sort of tacit insult as it is often tied up in the idea that these heroes aren't in touch with their own minds/feelings and it just eventually boils over uncontrollably. Not only the heroes in question, but men in general, which I find insulting in the same way as I find the horror archetype of the scared blonde victim girl insulting.

Agreed, zeigeist! We're not all moronic machos, ladies! Besides, does it get any more sensitive than Spike? And he's pretty darn into the ladies as well as kinda macho. (Ah but then there's that darn inner poet;-)

But seriously, Anybody here care to tell Apollo and the Midnighter how a hero should behave? To their faces?

Hah! I missed that one earlier! And well, you could try, but the Midnighter would take your head off.....

EdDantes | January 20, 18:21 CET

Honestly, what's most fascinating is that every post here tells me more about the poster than about the subject matter

Oh dear, oh dear..

spikeylover | January 20, 18:23 CET

Joss, i was going to make a similar comment about Northstar of Alpha Flight/X-Men fame, but you beat me to it with the whole Apollo/Midnighter thing.

I'm hetero and yet in my world i still have no problem dealing with heroes buggering one another. Whatever makes them happy, i guess.

Buffysmglover | January 20, 18:25 CET

..."I mean, look at Caveman vs Astronauts, for god's sake!"

OT, but can't help it. Seeing Joss talk Buffy/Angel makes me smile. Won't ever get enough of that.

Willowy | January 20, 18:35 CET

No love For Xander/Angel or Xander/Riley?
Or Simon/Mal?
Or Lorne/Gun?

Please don't hit me and my strange slash love.

JustNick | January 20, 18:39 CET

I'm hetero and yet in my world i still have no problem dealing with heroes buggering one another. Whatever makes them happy, i guess.

Agreed, but the way you phrased that made me think....it raises the question of whether or not the straight heroic couples on BtVS and AtS did any buggering? Like Buffy and Angel, or... well we KNOW Buffy and Spike must have.....and Xander and Anya, come on....

Ooooh I'm so gonna get slapped down aren't I?;-)

EdDantes | January 20, 18:39 CET

After reading the thread I suddenly realised that I'm totally OK with slash in fanfics but I'd be utterly shocked to see Spike and Angel "doing it" onscreen.

Moscow Watcher | January 20, 18:42 CET

Jebus I go to lunch and I come back to 26 freaking new comments. You folks have been busy.

Though nowhere near the level of say, Scrubs, where JD/Turk is almost supertext.

I was going to say something about those two but you beat me to it. In the first episode this week Turk's "I'm gonna get some sex" dance followed my JD's ass slap was so funny I nearly cried.

Oh speaking of gay superheros, in the Ultimate X-Men, the one most recently penned by Vaughan and soon to be penned by Kirkman, Colossus is gay. It's been hinted at for a while but he just came out of the closet and just started dating Northstar.

[ edited by war_machine on 2006-01-20 19:45 ]

war_machine | January 20, 18:43 CET

There was once a piece of direction in an Angel script by Minear that read, "Angel eyefucks Lindsey."

I'm taking that as canon, my friends. IT'S CANON.

And agree with Joss that in my world, the heroes bugger each other senseless. Nothing prettier than two pretty boys smooching, I say. Bless the slashers.

Edited to make zeitgeist look crazy.

[ edited by Allyson on 2006-01-20 19:58 ]

Allyson | January 20, 18:50 CET

zeitgeist - thanks for clearing up my confusion! Although I'm tempted to get a bit stroppy about how slash is just like golf, man.

JustNick - the stranger the better! I'll be setting up the first Phantom Dennis/Mr Gordo archive shortly.

lone fashionable wolf | January 20, 18:52 CET

Allyson - so long as thats cannon (boom!) and not canon ;) Also, eyefuck doesn't sound like a happy nice nice term, sounds like Angel was giving him a nasty nasty look.

ETA - you don't need to edit anything to make me look crazy, Allyson :)

lonefashionablewolf - Spangel golf slash you say? Skip to the end... ;) And no hole in one jokes, please.

Its all well and good for the heroes who are so inclined to bugger one another senseless; I think the contrary view expressed here is generally that slash takes characters who aren't so inclined and bends them every which way (figuratively and literally) to have them bugger one another senseless :) Which is fine, but some of us remember that the nod and the wink are just that and are there because of the / already existing, which is where slashers tend to go off track and swear that IT IS SO because of the knowing wink/nod. Seems to me that thats what we call circular logic.

zeitgeist | January 20, 18:57 CET

RogueSlayer says,

And what, you expect lesbians to be into gay man porn??? :~P

But some of are ARE into "gay man" porn. :-) !!

I am also ticked off at this "top twelve" list for leaving out the femmeslash. More Buffy/Faith, please.

Blue Hand guys slash == very silly. But speaking of Jeff Ricketts, I think Weatherby/Wesley is vaguely more plausible. Don't tell me those long nights at the (almost all male) Watcher's Academy didn't include some serious fooling around.

chickenbird | January 20, 19:05 CET

Its all well and good for the heroes who are so inclined to bugger one another senseless; I think the contrary view expressed here is generally that slash takes characters who aren't so inclined and bends them every which way (figuratively and literally) to have them bugger one another senseless :) Which is fine, but some of us remember that the nod and the wink are just that, which is where slashers tend to go off track and swear that IT IS SO because of the knowing wink/nod. Thats what we call circular logic.

Yeah I know, I don't care what slash people are into, and they can fill the net with stories about it, but it gets kinda tiresome when they insist that it's all literally intended that way in the show.

(Of course the forementioned straight-couple-buggering is all completley within character. Except I don't think Angel got to do it to Buffy. That was all way too 'sweet sixteen'. Now Spike on the other hand in S6.......;-)

Anyhoosie, winks from writers aside, really, no one ever intended for Spock and Kirk to be seen as gay lovers. No official writer is every going to make Superman and Luthor smooch either. Spike and Angel have both always been in love with women. Have fun with the winks, but yeah....I do think they're just that...winks.

On the other hand, maybe I should start some fiction that says that Tara was really straight and was INTENDED to be by the show. Remember OMWF?? "I want the boys"?? It's all so obvious, people....;-)

EdDantes | January 20, 19:09 CET

Considering text and subtext, nobody's commenting on the look that flashes between Spike and Xander in Beneath You, when Nancy asks if there's anyone there that hasn't slept together. Maybe all that anger and jealousy from Xander over Buffy having sex with Spike was doubly-pointed, so to speak.

And of course there is the pair-up of Xander and Andrew which would give us Xandrew. Or would that be Ander?

barboo | January 20, 19:09 CET

Yep, gonna agree - again, yawn, with zeity. Take the Apollo/Midnighter "heroes who bugger each other" motif - they were always gay, prominent, unashamed, damn tough gay men. Great great characters (even though The Authority went a little OTT for me at times). But for heroes who have not previously been gay, it creates dissonance - wait, Angel and Spike both love/lust after/whatever you wanna call it Buffy (not to mention Darla, Dru, etc.), but they have this smouldering subtext going on? Bit hard for me to swallow (ho ho). Certainly there is some fluidity in sexual attraction and so on - but from experience living in big cities in various countries and encountering really a lot of fairly uninhibited people, I've gotta say it's actually pretty rare (which isn't to deny that fictional characters can embrace that which real folk might shy aware from).

I can totally buy uninhibited vampires getting in on once - maybe a few times. But to insist that Angel and Spike, both ensouled, are yearning for one another? I think that's a slash too far. But, again, if the thought floats your boat, it's all cool. And if you want to write that thought down in lurid detail so's others can enjoy - all the better.

SoddingNancyTribe | January 20, 19:14 CET

Oh, so its the topic of slash that gets Joss to grace us with a visit! It certainly reveals alot more about him than it does about the subject matter! ;)

[ edited by zeitgeist to fix the color of the joss on 2006-01-20 20:21 ]

killinj | January 20, 19:15 CET

But some of are ARE into "gay man" porn. :-) !!

Well, I stand corrected and have my horizons broadened all at once! Assumptions are nasty little things...apologies to the lesbian contingency who digs man on man action! Although I gotta ask...is it because it's hot, or because it's funny? If it's cuz it's hot, doesn't that mean yer a little bi? Although I guess 'categories' are a bit subjective here...

Rogue Slayer | January 20, 19:16 CET

In my world, heroes bugger each other senseless.

Aww, my sentiments exactly. Yes, I'm a slash fan and yes, I loves me some Spangel. It's all good clean (ie., dirty) fun.

And in the spirit of good clean fun, I offer this link to an amusing site, a collection of unintentionally funny comic book covers and scenes: Link

[ edited by zeitgeist to link-ify on 2006-01-20 20:22 ]

punkinpuss | January 20, 19:17 CET

Chickenbird said (regarding Rogue Slayer's comment):

But some of are ARE into "gay man" porn. :-) !!

Beat me to it, Chickenbird!!

m'cookies actual | January 20, 19:19 CET

But for heroes who have not previously been gay, it creates dissonance - wait, Angel and Spike both love/lust after/whatever you wanna call it Buffy (not to mention Darla, Dru, etc.), but they have this smouldering subtext going on? Bit hard for me to swallow (ho ho). Certainly there is some fluidity in sexual attraction and so on - but from experience living in big cities in various countries and encountering really a lot of fairly uninhibited people, I've gotta say it's actually pretty rare (which isn't to deny that fictional characters can embrace that which real folk might shy aware from).

In my experience, bisexuality isn't rare at all. And it's all on a sliding (Kinsey) scale anyway. *g*

KernelM | January 20, 19:32 CET

I know EXACTLY what happened and it's funny that I'm never going to tell anyone.

The number of things that Joss is not telling us is increasing every day. Literally. And I for one don't find it funny. Humph.

edited to add,there is a great series of books by Rosemary Sutcliffe - intended for children, that deal with the Roman invasion of Britain. A couple of the soldiers are clearly a couple. They spur each other onto to great feats of derring do and bravery, wanting to prove worthy of the other. It is very subtlely done but there.

[ edited by Lioness on 2006-01-20 20:43 ]

Lioness | January 20, 19:33 CET

In my experience, bisexuality isn't rare at all. And it's all on a sliding (Kinsey) scale anyway. *g*

I tend to agree with the Kinsey scale, but I don't think that SNT meant that bisexuality is all that rare. Just that (at least mainly) straight people don't have little experiments that often. (at least that's what I think he meant. I could be way off)

I can totally buy uninhibited vampires getting in on once - maybe a few times. But to insist that Angel and Spike, both ensouled, are yearning for one another? I think that's a slash too far.

Seconded. Just like the eternal thing about Batman and Robin. No they're not gay, because they've never been written to be gay. They've both always been straight. Ever. But if I'm supposed to buy those romantic pairings I can think of a couple more. Okay, let's go nuts...

-Ever noticed the glances between Oz and Principal Snyder? Smoldering, people!

-Jimmy Olsen was really Perry White's 'boy'....

-All that raw sexual tension between Tom & Jerry was palpable.

-Leia clearly loved the time she spent as Jabba's sex slave. She merely killed him so Han wouldn't find out.

-We all know Treepio is gay, but did you know Artoo was bi??

-The Japanese ghost lady from the Grudge clearly had sexual intentions with Sarah's character. All that sexy 'here-I-come' crawling...

-Han and Chewie were 'partners' in more ways than one. (Their favorite game was 'Walk the Dog'...)

-The Balrog was only masking his true feelings for Gandalf.

Hey I got a million of'em;-)

EdDantes | January 20, 19:41 CET

a collection of unintentionally funny comic book covers and scenes

Okay, I am officially amused by those ;-)

Whats more, I pretty much agree with all that zeitgeist and SNT said in their last posts on this subject. Saves me the trouble of forming thoughts and opinions on my own. Gotta love the lazy.

GVH | January 20, 19:42 CET

If it's cuz it's hot, doesn't that mean yer a little bi?

One could argue that we're all bi to one degree or another. I leave it up to individuals to define themselves, but I imagine a lesbian would consider herself no less of one just for getting voyueristic pleasure out of watching two gay men get it on.

killinj | January 20, 19:42 CET

BTW, just to scar everybody in this thread: I've read Blue Hand slash. I've read Reaver slash. I've read Reaver/Blue Hand slash. Be grateful I can't dig up the links offhand. ;)

KernelM | January 20, 19:44 CET

Yeah, EdD's interpretation of what I meant was pretty spot-on.

FWIW, I definitely agree that a continuum (rather than dichotomy) of sexual attraction exists (although I have a great deal of doubt about Kinsey's research more generally), but, yep, I think people are fixed at some point on that continuum - they're not sliding up and down it like manic hockey pucks (in that sense, I think the term "sliding scale" is a bit misleading).

So if you're bi and somewhere near the middle, of course you act on those desires. If you're toward the straight or gay edges, you're not going to be acting on bisexual impulses much at all. ('Course, if you can find something to inhibit your natural impulses - really strong drugs, suddenly turning into an amoral vamp, - the field is probably a bit more open.)

Anyway, that's my empirical take. More data is always welcomed. :)

SoddingNancyTribe | January 20, 19:49 CET

Okay, now that's just downright disturbing. Reaver slash? Reaver/Blue Hand slash? That's just, I dunno, wrong.

So, explain to me again why you actually read it. Ah well, to each their own, I guess ;-)

GVH | January 20, 19:50 CET

One could argue that we're all bi to one degree or another.

Back the sliding scale, which I do agree with!

Rogue Slayer | January 20, 19:50 CET

OK, everyone take a breath. One-two, one-two. Personally, I got a good chuckle from this thread. I will never understand 'Slash' fiction. But, I must admit the thought of Kirk and Spock "doing it" leaves me in tears.

People, it's just an article. Please remember the room you're in.

Madhatter | January 20, 19:52 CET

I know I just skipped a bunch of the later posts here, but wanted to thank whoever posted the quotes of what was actually said...in my memory I swore that Illyria said intercourse (I took it as verbal intercouse, discourse, etc.). Wow! Guess I know where my mind is! LOL.

I agree with all who think the magic is in the wondering and supposing, not the knowing!

Grace | January 20, 19:52 CET

Word, MadH - still, I think this is one of the calmer and more thoughtful discussion we've had, thanks to our fine members. :)

SoddingNancyTribe | January 20, 19:53 CET

I agree with you, SNT, I'm enjoying this discussion a lot. Although it may have something to do with the fact that we are discussing (mostly) fictional characters.

Lioness | January 20, 19:56 CET

Spike is a bit of an anomaly in that he kept so much humanity. (Always found it interesting Angel never really eats human food, while Spike does all the time. And boozes of course.)
EdDantes

Good point EdDantes. I noticed that about Spike but never thought about it in those terms.

It's been a while since I saw "Power Play", but I remember that when I saw it, I took Spike's remark as wisecracking. But I think it says something that he's comfortable wisecracking in that way. Spike's always seemed more flexible in his sexual identity, willing to play with the idea of "manliness", like in "School Hard" he tells Buffy he likes weapons because they make him feel all manly, then immediately drops his, or the famous "I'm love's bitch, but man enough to admit it" line. Angelus seems more rigidly macho, the domineering alpha male. He dominates and humiliates Spike, but he does it through possessing Dru sexually. I can see Spike presoul being into sexual experimentation - hell, he even likes his blood "hot and spicey", while for Angelus the high kicks seem to be in the murder and mayhem area.

barboo | January 20, 19:56 CET

My Spike love overcame my original aversion to slash. When I ran out of good Spuffy, and started disliking Buffy anyway, I started reading the Spangel. First by skimming the sex scenes, then I was seduced.

Now I prefer it. Spangel Fiction tends to be deeply emotional. More about the thoughts than the physical act. And kinky.

And I have noticed a lot of lesbian Spangel fans. There seems to be an enormous number of lesbian Spike fans period. I once read an essay, can't remember where or by who, that basically said Spike was like a really butch dyke.

Xane | January 20, 19:58 CET

Spike was like a really butch dyke

Really? That idea amuses me greatly. Anyone have a reference?

SoddingNancyTribe | January 20, 20:01 CET

still, I think this is one of the calmer and more thoughtful discussion we've had

Yeah, Madh are you seeing some angry yelling and fighting that I'm missing? Looks like a perfectly friendly thread to me.

Maybe a little TOO friendly even....*nudge nudge wink wink*;-)

It's been a while since I saw "Power Play", but I remember that when I saw it, I took Spike's remark as wisecracking. But I think it says something that he's comfortable wisecracking in that way.

Interesting. I didn't get the idea he was wisecracking. I just felt he didn't mean 'intimate' as in the physical since physycial intimacy wasn't really the topic at hand to begin with. But I really just saw the writers giving the slash fans a nice little nod.

Angelus seems more rigidly macho, the domineering alpha male. He dominates and humiliates Spike, but he does it through possessing Dru sexually. can see Spike presoul being into sexual experimentation -

I pretty much agree with all of that. Like I said earlier, my main problem is that I just don't see either soulless Spike or Angelus willingly being the other guy's 'bottom'. If they had wild moments, I think they'd still both want to be the top.

And yeah, given their history, I think that for Angelus, at least half the fun in doing Dru was pissing Spike off;-)

EdDantes | January 20, 20:10 CET

I know I just skipped a bunch of the later posts here, but wanted to thank whoever posted the quotes of what was actually said...in my memory I swore that Illyria said intercourse (I took it as verbal intercouse, discourse, etc.). Wow! Guess I know where my mind is! LOL.

You're not completely imagining it, Grace. Earlier in the same episode, Illyria says to Spike that she and Wesley are "no longer having intercourse", Spike is like "Huh?!?", and Illyria explains that Wesley won't talk to her. So you remembered right, but it referred to a different relationship.

ETA: Ditto on enjoying the civility of this thread. I think it's going on and on because people find it an interesting discussion (and because Joss posted), not because they're pissed off or anything.

BTW, slightly OT, I encourage people to peruse the main "Examples of Superdickery" gallery on that site. It's hilarious (for example).

[ edited by jam2 on 2006-01-20 21:24 ]

jam2 | January 20, 20:15 CET

Okay, now that's just downright disturbing. Reaver slash? Reaver/Blue Hand slash? That's just, I dunno, wrong.

So, explain to me again why you actually read it. Ah well, to each their own, I guess ;-)

Well, for one thing, they were written by my friends. Which probably says alot about me. :-P But more importantly, just for the shear... I don't know. Horror factor? Maybe it's some kind of latent masochism where we want to see just how much we can scar ourselves mentally.

KernelM | January 20, 20:27 CET

Spike was like a really butch dyke

Yeah, but is there a huge difference between a "really butch dyke" and, you know, a man (apart from which bits dangle where) ? That's not meant to be insulting i'm actually curious (and woefully uninformed).

I haven't read any slash (let alone Spangel) but to me the only plausible Spike/Angel slash would be quite violent and animalistic, a battle for dominance, basically a fight played out as sex. Whether they did it or not in the canon, I just don't see tenderness coming into it (look how the Spike/Buffy sex was and he loved her).

I've read Reaver/Blue Hand slash. Be grateful I can't dig up the links offhand. ;)

Not sure I ever want to know what constitutes reaver on reaver action. I think i'd be trying to bury those links deeper, not dig 'em up. Possibly with some salting of the earth ;).

As an aside, I heard or read somewhere that men like girl on girl because it means they can enjoy sex without putting their beer down ;).

Saje | January 20, 20:30 CET

I once read an essay, can't remember where or by who, that basically said Spike was like a really butch dyke.

Hmm, maybe you're thinking of the Arwen Spicer essay from Slayage #7, "Love's Bitch, but Man Enough to Admit It: Spike's Hybridized Gender" which can be found at the Slayage website

punkinpuss | January 20, 20:35 CET

Whether they did it or not in the canon, I just don't see tenderness coming into it (look how the Spike/Buffy sex was and he loved her).

He was actually quite tender with the Buffy Bot, it was the real Buffy that initiated the rough sex, to which he happily went along.

killinj | January 20, 20:36 CET

There's one thing I haven't seen anyone consider re: Angel/Spike, though it might not be the funny that Joss hinted at. Could Angelus have raped Spike as a way of asserting his dominance over him? Angelus seemed to like to humiliate Spike by doing everything to degrade and defile him. Angelus did this because that was the be-all and end-all of his existence. He had sex with Dru at a time he most likely knew he would be caught by Spike, to let him know who was the alpha dog in the pack and make him feel lower than dirt. Violent, aggressive male prisoners will rape other male prisoners to assert their dominance, not because they like sex with men. Angelus got off on destroying people's psyches, and while not a prisoner, he wore aggression like a stink on feces.

Nebula1400 | January 20, 20:37 CET

Well, I feel my name requires me to post in this thread.

Posted.

Also. I think they did it seven ways to Sunday!

Spangel | January 20, 20:38 CET

One could argue that we're all bi to one degree or another. I leave it up to individuals to define themselves, but I imagine a lesbian would consider herself no less of one just for getting voyueristic pleasure out of watching two gay men get it on.

That pretty much sums it up. Watching two gay men get it on, reading about them getting it on, writing about them getting it on ... the possibilities are endless! And that makes us (or at least me) no less likely to enjoy a good Buffy/Faith story. It's all good, people.

On another topic, Joss says (about David and James),

I merely meant that there was enormous acting chemistry between them.

Shall I take that as license to mean I'm allowed to read real-person slash about David and James? ;-) ;-) ACTING chemistry people, ACTING.

chickenbird | January 20, 20:41 CET

Hey, guys, I had classes this morning. Anything interesting happen while I...wha the...?

billz | January 20, 21:04 CET

killinj: That's a good point. I wonder tho' if that was him trying to be Ken to his mental image of Barbie Buffy ? It didn't feel like the real pre-soul Spike to me.

Nebula1400: That's sort of what I was implying above. In some male animals (e.g. rams, some apes) it seems homosexual rape is used in exactly this way i.e. as a means of asserting authority and, in a sense, ownership of the dominated male (tho' this idea is a bit controversial).

chickenbird: It strikes me that there's an asymmetry regarding same sex coupling. It seems perfectly plausible that a lesbian could happily enjoy watching gay male sex, gay female sex or hetero sex and have no 'identity' issues. This may also be true of hetero women but if a hetero man found himself enjoying gay male porn I think he'd have serious worries regarding his sexuality. As you say it should be all good and folk should set their sail to whatever tack they like, just seems like there may be a social disparity there.

Saje | January 20, 21:06 CET

There's one thing I haven't seen anyone consider re: Angel/Spike, though it might not be the funny that Joss hinted at. Could Angelus have raped Spike as a way of asserting his dominance over him?

You mean just in this thread, right?

Allyson | January 20, 21:11 CET

Saje says,

...but if a hetero man found himself enjoying gay male porn I think he'd have serious worries regarding his sexuality.

I didn't wanna mention it, but yeah, he might. Or if he were secure enough in his sexuality he might not have any serious worries. If he's "metro" enough, or something.

chickenbird | January 20, 21:19 CET

I wonder tho' if that was him trying to be Ken to his mental image of Barbie Buffy ? It didn't feel like the real pre-soul Spike to me.

Possibly, although I think if real life Buffy had approached him in a tender and romantic way with regards to sex, he would have reciprocated in kind. It just happened that she first engaged him sexually in a violent way and that informed how he responded throughout the rest of their sexual relationship. Pre-soul, he did attempt to be more tender towards her and she refused his advances. Also, I think he was quite tender and romantic towards Dru.

killinj | January 20, 21:23 CET

A quote from Joss' commentary to "A Hole In The World"...

[Over Angel and Spike arguing]"I've never seen a more intense or beautiful romance. We finally found the right girl for Angel... I'm SORT OF kidding."

Haunt | January 20, 21:24 CET

My apologles. I haven't been able to get anything right these past few months. Please forgive me. I'll work on it. And no problem with the criterion. It was fair. I just can't feel anything within myself.

Madhatter | January 20, 21:25 CET

Punkinpuss it wasn't the Slayage Site essay. This essay was written recently on someone's live journal. It was really good. Interesting and funny. I wish I had a clue where to begin. I often jump from one Live Journal link to another. I probably started from Darker Spike but who knows?

As far as not being able to see Spike or Angel as a "bottom."
Please. I think Spike could be said to be a submissive with both Buffy and Dru. People are often the opposite in sex from what they are in real life.

Xane | January 20, 21:26 CET

Joss So that's how you spell ingenue. *slaps forehead* I knew that. Honest. *whistles innocently*

Agreed, JM and DB had, I believe, the best chemistry with each other, better than they did with anyone else. And it's exactly that that opens up the possibilities for all sorts of avenues of thought. They hate each other with intense passion and long to be rid of each other. And yet, they always gravitate back together one way or another. Why? Coincedence or destiny? Again, more options open up to us the viewers.

And why can't they ever kill each other? I mean Angel really should have staked both Spike and Lawson in the submarine episode. He was souled, they weren't and he knew they would kill people. He felt guilt over Lawson and gave him a free pass. But why did he spare Spike?

Yes, I'm a Spangel. Yes, two good looking men together is imo hot. But the Spike and Angel relationship, on any level, is just endlessly fascinating to me. Their pairing can and is seen in many different ways, as lovers, siblings, father/child. I love looking at their relationship and finding yet more layers to it.

At the Halloween Con both DB and JM agreed that despite their outward antagonism, deep down there is a love between Spike and Angel. They didn't specify what kind of love and I don't think it matters. Again, be it a sexual, familial or comrades in arms love, it is I believe there.

And that is why I campaigned for a S6 to happen. To see more of this amazing pairing, both characters and actors. *sniffle* I miss the boys. *pouts*

exoticmushroom | January 20, 21:31 CET

Possibly, although I think if real life Buffy had approached him in a tender and romantic way with regards to sex, he would have reciprocated in kind. It just happened that she first engaged him sexually in a violent way

I think this is a bit revisionist. Their relationship was initiated in violence, pure and simple. Spike trying to kill Buffy (although there was always an interesting attraction, I agree), Buffy trying to stake Spike, or wondering why she hadn't. And when they achieved a fragile detente in "Becoming Part II" or "Lover's Walk", they still pummelled *each other*, not just Buffy waling on poor lil' Spike. And, frankly, he seemed to enjoy it. In that context, I don't think there was a hope in hell that they were suddenly going to have tender kitten sex. And, more generally, I just don't see it as Buffy being the aggressor, and Spike the victim. Not at all. Their relationship continually had a shifting balance of power - which is one thing I love about it.

And there was that time Spike smacked the Buffybot across the room - he wasn't always that gentle towards it.

the Spike and Angel relationship, on any level, is just endlessly fascinating to me. Their pairing can and is seen in many different ways, as lovers, siblings, father/child. I love looking at their relationship and finding yet more layers to it

And this I absolutely agree with.

Madhatter - please don't worry about it. We always welcome and value any and all comments coming from the great Whedonesquer you are. :)

SoddingNancyTribe | January 20, 21:44 CET

Wasn't "The Immortal" the only one to have Darla and Dru concurrently? Also, Spike was awfully upset when Angel was messing around with Dru. While orgies(?) might be a big part of the vamp lifestyle. I just think these 4 had too many issues with each other. Especially, Spike and Angel.

Yes, but do you think that after the Immortal did have them concurrently, that Angelus would have let that stand? I mean, there were years after that this could have occurred.

The moment Angelus saw Spike in season two, he kissed him on his forehead. And Darla/Drusilla? Come on--Slash central...They may have issues, but it doesn't mean they didn't boink.

The only one I would wonder about is Darla/Spike, (although I think it would have been hot as hell if they did.)

spikeylover | January 20, 21:48 CET

Isn't super cool that Joss actually reads these posts? This gives me a lot of hope that when he makes the next Buffyverse project it will be what the majority of us want. By reading this website he is in tune with his fans. I like that a lot.

Saskbuffyfan | January 20, 21:50 CET

Madhatter, just be sure to pass around a little of whatever it is you've got there! ;) - kidding! We all loves ya.

Willowy | January 20, 21:51 CET

Thank you, SoddingNancyTribe. I'm OK.

Madhatter | January 20, 21:53 CET

SNT Cheers petal! :0)

Spike and Buffy, I must say that I didn't care for how she'd beat up on him prior to S6, when he had the chip and couldn't even defend himself, let alone fight her. Guess that's why I was never a Spuffy.

In fact I was never a shipper until S5 of Ats. Weird huh. The power of the Spangel raises it's head. LOL! :0)

exoticmushroom | January 20, 21:53 CET

He felt guilt over Lawson and gave him a free pass. But why did he spare Spike?

Really complex to get into, but IMO, its tied up in his guilt over turning Spike loose in the first place and the fact that staking Spike would be in some way to him be denial of the possibility of his own redemption.

At the Halloween Con both DB and JM agreed that despite their outward antagonism, deep down there is a love between Spike and Angel. They didn't specify what kind of love and I don't think it matters.

I think they didn't specify because they thought it was obvious how they meant it. Familial (brothers and father/son), comrades, and though they won't admit it they share an even deeper bond being two ensouled vamps/Champions seeking redemption.

zeitgeist | January 20, 22:06 CET

zeitgeist Thanks for your comments. Was Angel even bothered about redemption at that point? Arrrrg, yet more questions that could have been answered in S6. *sobs silently*

exoticmushroom | January 20, 22:11 CET

I think this is a bit revisionist.

How is it revisionist? The first time they had sex they were being violent with each other, which I'm not denying was common between them, and she initiated sex. There were times when Spike tried to be comforting, rather than confrontational and Buffy angrily pushed him away everytime. I believe if she had responded positively to his efforts to be nice, he would have continued act accordingly as best as he could.

Also, I'm not suggesting that Spike would always tender with her or anyone else for that, nobody is, but that he had the capacity within him even pre-soul and that he was actually predisposed to playing the romantic. It wasn't against his nature at all.

[ edited by killinj on 2006-01-20 23:13 ]

killinj | January 20, 22:12 CET

exoticmushroom - I believe that he was, yes (not so actively as later on of course). Completely with you re: S6. It would have been glorious! :)

zeitgeist | January 20, 22:13 CET

Nebula1400 -- That's what I was intimating a long way back when I mentioned the essay that commented on Angelus being a Sadist and Spike a bit of a masochist. I think if anything ever did happen between them, it would be all about the dominance, not the love and the tenderness. Angelus simply wasn't a tender guy. And William/Spike learned from him how to hide his own tender streak.

Miss Edith | January 20, 22:22 CET

The day we Get SereniLlama and Werewolf Oz slash will be the day the first creepy slash fic is ever written.

JustNick | January 20, 22:25 CET

In terms of S6 and other unknowns (Firefly eps etc), I always wonder whether Joss would ever write anything for them for his own enjoyment, to take them on the paths they won't be going down on tv (sob!). I guess he doesn't have much time but he created these characters who became so real to us (I imagine to him in some ways too - maybe more, I don't know), maybe he sometimes misses them like we do.

lone fashionable wolf | January 20, 22:33 CET

killinj, I may have come off a bit harsh. More specifically I suppose I meant to say "with the benefit of hindsight," rather than "revisionist."

My point was that the violence between Spike and Buffy had always been there, that Spike had a tendency - as did Buffy to some extent, - to swing wildly from tenderness or passivity to rage, and that, at the time they began a sexual relationship, there was just no realistic possibility that Buffy would approach it in the spirit of tenderness.

I agree that "if she had responded positively to his efforts to be nice, he would have continued act accordingly as best as he could." My point is that she had no reason to respond in that way, and that some of your comments seem to attribute some blame to her in that regard that I think is unjustified. Plus the fact that, you know, the whole torn out of heaven/slight wish to not be alive/not feeling thing may have made it hard for her to reach out.

My take on the Season Six relationship is that both Buffy and Spike were in the grip of powers beyond their control, and that each of them was using the other in sex.

SoddingNancyTribe | January 20, 22:39 CET

SNT - my "if she had responded positively to his efforts to be nice" was exactly that - a "what if" - not in anyway suggesting that it would or could have happened that way. Nor am I assigning blame to Buffy or saying she was the only aggressor in the relationship. I was simply providing evidence of Spike following his romantic instincts in an effort to counter what I interpreted as your supposition that Spike didn't have it in him pre-soul to be a more tender romantic as opposed to just into the rough stuff.

killinj | January 20, 22:52 CET

Well, I guess I read too much into your words - and I think you might have read too much into mine in finding a supposition about Spike that I hadn't intended. But cool that we've reached a place of agreement. I think.

SoddingNancyTribe | January 20, 23:02 CET

I do think that they might have been intimate one time or so. But i don't think that Angelus raped or forced Spike.
I believe there would have been mutual agreement.
Becuse i believe that would that have happend, Spike would take his revenge on Angel now that they are more of equal strength.

As for not dusting Spike in the submarine,1) it would have been a tough fight, 2)Angel would not be fighting the good fight for another 50 or 60 years until Sunnydale, where he gets a purpose.

sethsky | January 20, 23:25 CET

Yeah, I was beginning to think that perhaps we were missing each other points and that we probably had more in agreement with each other than where our diverting trains of thought were leading us.

killinj | January 20, 23:35 CET

I was actually surprised to read this thread and find out that so many people didn't see the slashy subtext abound in the Whedonverse. You learn new things everyday at Whedonesque. :)

Add me to the list of people who's shocked that Buffy/Faith didn't rate the list (I remember watching "Who Are You?" with a friend, she certainly thought the moment with Faith in the tub was overtly sexual enough for her to stare at me in shock and ask, "Are they allowed to show that?!"). Or that this thread hasn't seen any mentions of Faith and Lilah - I could swear the script for "Five by Five" advised the actors to "keep the lesbian subtext very sub," not to mention the, "You don't know how many guys have promised [to get me off]." "I'm certain you won't be disappointed in our performance," exchange between those two.

Though didn't Joss encourage from early on to Bring Your Own Subtext? While some people here seem to go either way on whether sexual acts between characters did or did not take place canonically, the beauty of so many Whedonverse relationships is that they are so rich with many kinds of subtext that you can interpret them however you like. It's no surprise that Buffy/Faith and Angel/Spike are so popular in slashfic; the relationships are so rich to explore, and everyone can see them differently.

meimi | January 20, 23:46 CET

Saskbuffyfan, I wouldn't hold your breath for Joss to ever give us "what the majority of us want," even though he reads our posts. He only gives us what we really need.

[ edited by spikeangellover on 2006-01-21 00:52 ]

spikeangellover | January 20, 23:49 CET

"the beauty of so many Whedonverse relationships is that they are so rich with many kinds of subtext that you can interpret them however you like."

I totally agree! And the beauty of Whedonesque is that we can have such interesting and civil debates!

supersymetry | January 20, 23:56 CET

Saskbuffyfan, I wouldn't hold your breath for Joss to ever give us "what the majority of us want," even though he reads our posts. He only gives us what we really need.

Would also be wary of assuming anything about the opinions of the majority of fandom from posts in any specific thread on any specific site. Also, remember that Bring Your Own Subtext means that you are doomed to never get validation of your particular subtext in some cases, and also means that there are bound to be folks who take diametrically opposed views. The great thing is that we can all talk about it fairly lightheartedly and have a great time doing so. The Joss(tm) definitely gives us what we need, however, as spikeangellover astutely points out :)

zeitgeist | January 21, 00:13 CET

I have been a comic book fan for about 25 years and I have always found that entire industry to be unique because the comic enthusiasts could interact with the professional talent to a greater degree than any other area of entertainment. If you want to meet an artist, chances are they will be at a convention soon. If you really like a comic, you can write the author an email or go to their personal website. (I have only written to two comics pros and in both cases I got a personal response a few minutes later! For the curious it was Brian Bendis and Michael Gaydos) Similarly, by embracing the fans and the ‘Verse, I believe the Buffy/Angel/Firefly/Serenity professionals have created a similar environment for fans to have these exciting personal experiences. I mean come on, how cool is it to hear Joss chime in with his opinions?

Now back on topic…and maybe a question for the more experienced Slash fans, would you consider demon on demon action to be Slash? For example, The Gentlemen (Hush) decide to have an orgy. Is that slash or just gross?

alexreager | January 21, 00:14 CET

Oooh, alexreager, I'll go with "just gross" on that one.

spikeangellover | January 21, 00:18 CET

For example, The Gentlemen (Hush) decide to have an orgy. Is that slash or just gross?

Given their slow-moving, floaty tendencies, I'd probably say it's "tantric."

[ edited by Kristen at TimMinearNet on 2006-01-21 01:26 ]

Kristen R | January 21, 00:25 CET

Given their slow-moving, floaty tendencies, I'd probably say it's "tantric."

Ah, well, in that case they should probably invite Sting. ;)

killinj | January 21, 00:30 CET

Just saw this thread (amazing that I missed it before!). Interesting reading all the comments (especially Joss's), and seeing how civil it stayed.

But... In all these comments, has no one mentioned Xander and Spike?? (I skimmed near the end, so might have missed it). Definitely the pair with the biggest subtext I saw, and my own personal favorite pairing. Especially when Spike was living in Xander's basement. Love Buffy and Faith too. But I agree with several above - slash is all in the subtext and insinuation, not in the gory details, with everything spelled out....

acp | January 21, 00:31 CET

I think Xander/Spike has been mentioned but I just can't believe no-one has brought up the Giles/Cheese Man possibilities. Talk about sizzle ;).

(actually, interestingly Giles hasn't been mentioned at all that I can find. Too dignified/stuffy/British ?)

Saje | January 21, 00:41 CET

Giles and Wesley, Giles and Angel..No. Not working fo

January 20 2006