Hey, I like this site. It's very creative way to rank thing.

Djungelurban | January 21, 01:02 CET

If there ever were a set of works that I refuse to rank it's Joss stuff. There are some many different ways to appreciate each episode that just about everyone is "the best" in its own way.

GaveUp | January 21, 01:17 CET

I dunno, GaveUp...ranking The Body better than Bad Eggs? Kind of a no-brainer. Though I do agree that there's something good to be found in every single episode. For instance - Bad Eggs had the Gorches. Gotta love the Gorches!

Willowy | January 21, 01:25 CET

Well ranking 'better than' is a somewhat easier task than ranking 'best'. And for as much as Bad Eggs had going against it, I liked it because it felt like a throwback to the old B horror films. Well, and the Gorches.

[ edited by GaveUp on 2006-01-20 23:37 ]

GaveUp | January 21, 01:33 CET

I like looking at the bottom of the list better than the top. It's picky to squabble down there at the bottom, though I do contend that Buffy never sunk below "I Robot, You Jane." The Angel list hits the death nail on the head there at the bottom. However, it's nice to look at both shows and see how few truly sub-par episodes there are. We all have our favorites and our favorite disappointments (my husband would rather be hot-pokered than ever watch "Where the Wild Things Are"), but it's clear that we here are fans of two pretty awesome shows start to finish.

mosie | January 21, 02:15 CET

After voting for what seemed like an age, Angel has about 3 bad episodes, and Buffy has about 20.

cowmuf | January 21, 02:19 CET

Can't believe though that Into the Woods is in 120th place. It's definitely one of the best episodes ever, just outside the top 10. I don't think I'll ever understand all the blind Riley hate.

[ edited by Djungelurban on 2006-01-21 00:21 ]

Djungelurban | January 21, 02:21 CET

And I'd probably come out exactly the reverse . . .

SoddingNancyTribe | January 21, 02:38 CET

I think this is a unique way to vote, and I can't argue with much of it. (although I do agree that INTO THe WOODS is a great episode)

I am with SNT, I think ATS had quite a few more really unwatchable episodes then Buffy, but of course, it's a matter of taste.

spikeylover | January 21, 02:46 CET

Interesting way to rank. Much easier, in some ways, than trying to do approach it all at once.
Still, it produces some odd results! I can't believe that Superstar and Lies My Parents Told Me, for instance, are in the top 10 - ahead of Becoming 2 and The Body. Not that either is a bad episode, just... Top 10? And not those other two?

Some of the pairings were a cinch to vote on. Others - mostly the ones i'd stick down in the middle of the pack, not the greatest, not terrible - a little harder.

acp | January 21, 03:04 CET

I would have agree with SNT as well, though Angel is my preferred show.

I'm surprised Lies My Parents Told Me is so high on the list. Other than with Villains, I can't ever feeling so angry after watching a tv show episode.
Interesting seeing all the results.

ETA: I see acp already brought up sort of the same thing.

[ edited by obsessed on 2006-01-21 01:14 ]

obsessed | January 21, 03:13 CET

I think it would be better to pair for comparison close (according to the current ranking) episodes. The whole thing would then work like the Swiss system in chess competitions.

[ edited by Lince on 2006-01-21 01:18 ]

Lince | January 21, 03:16 CET

I think this is an excellent idea, very easy to vote, and seems like it would be fairly accurate... but I'm very surprised at some of these rankings, how different they are from how I'd rank them. Hush at #6, behind Chosen, Fool For Love, and Storyteller? I also can't believe episodes like Lies My Parents Told Me and Selfless are so highly ranked (hated those episodes), and some other ones I really liked are ranked so low. Although I do agree with the last 2 on the list as probably the worst episodes ever.

Okkay | January 21, 03:26 CET

I had to choose between Beer Bad and Doublemeat Palace.....AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Sunnycide | January 21, 03:28 CET

Interesting way to arrange the voting tho' i'm not sure how else you'd do it since most people couldn't rank 144 episodes in order of preference and listing top 3 or 5 or whatever would be hopelessly skewed and basically useless for the majority of episodes (I think most people's top 10 would be fairly similar for BtVS at least).

Also, not to start a holy war or anything but I love 'Lies my Parents Told Me'. I probably wouldn't put it as high as it is (certainly not above 'The Body') but for me it was an excellent way to restore Spike's big badness while keeping him just the right side of the line.

Saje | January 21, 03:32 CET

Curse you, Simon! Does it ever end? I keep swearing that this is the last pair and I'll stop voting, but then I get suckered in by the next batch. Very cool algorithmic way to get to a ranking. I'm digging it. But seriously, is there an end?

And just to throw my two quid in, (not having seen the results of this ranking yet) Lies My Parents Told Me would definitely have to be in my top 5 or 6 episodes. (Along with The Body & Hush.) I can't remember ever seeing more intense television in my life than the Spike/Wood garage fight with the flashbacks. Good God, that was incredible stuff. I remember alternating between holding my breath and muttering "holycrap,holycrap,holycrap,holyCRAP!" Think I'll have to dig that dusty DVD out..

barest_smidgen | January 21, 03:33 CET

I'm surprised Lies My Parents Told Me is so high on the list. Other than with Villains, I can't ever feeling so angry after watching a tv show episode.

I'm not surprised, Lies My Parents Told Me is one of my top 10 favorite episodes. Why the anger?

wrikiwood | January 21, 03:34 CET

Sunnycide, that would be easy (relatively) for me.... I thought Doublemeat was pretty bad in Buffy terms, but Beer Bad? The only BtVS episode I've actively hated, and can hardly bring myself to rewatch. The only thing that redeems it for me is the scene with Parker and Willow.

ETA: on the LMPTM subject, I liked the episode too, so it's not hatred on my end. But for me... better than the body?? Or Becoming 2??? not a chance. It might crack my top 20, and certainly my top 30. But I need room for eps like The Body, OMWF, Passion, Restless, Becoming, Hush, The Wish, Fool for Love, Doppelgangland, etc in my top 10....

[ edited by acp on 2006-01-21 01:37 ]

acp | January 21, 03:34 CET

I also love Lies My Parents Told Me. Probably not top 10 but it would definitely make my top 25.

acp, I ended up choosing "can't decide". They are both in a handful of episodes that I find cringe-worthy. I agree, the Parker-Willow moment is quite good. I try to stay away from these episodes when I try to convince people that Buffy is worth checking out.

Edited to fix grammar... oops.

[ edited by Sunnycide on 2006-01-21 02:05 ]

Sunnycide | January 21, 03:42 CET

Nice list, acp. I'm with you. If i could squeeze Pangs, Lies My Parents Told Me, and something juicy from S5 in to your bunch -- The Gift maybe, that'd be pretty damn close to my rankings. (Of course, 'til I think about it some more and come up with another bunch...)

barest_smidgen | January 21, 03:47 CET

I noticed too that it was kind of not-endy. I just quit after about ten minutes. Also, the worst choice they put up for me was Where the Wild Things Are against Killed By Death. Argh. I can't stand any ep that tortures kids. And both of those rate equally on my 'don't watch anymore' list.

Still, going with the idea that every ep yields something great: WtWTA has Giles singing (yay) and the Scoob's priceless reactions. KBD? Uh...sick Buffy is kooky? Dunno, I'm hard-pressed on that one.

Oh, and Beer Bad? Love it. Never understood why it's so vilified by a lot of us fans. :)

Willowy | January 21, 03:50 CET

Yeah, those are both pretty far down on my list as well, Willowy, and I'd be hard-pressed to choose between them. Also down near the bottom are a few of the early S1 eps where the show hadn't really found its footing - I Robot, You Jane, for instance. THere aren't many of the truly cringe-worthy Buffy eps, but they do exist. And while there's something redeeming in all of them, for the most part I just don't watch them. Beer Bad, for me, is just painful, painful acting and a painful plot, complete with the most obvious metaphor imaginable. I hate seeing Buffy (the character and the show) reduced to that.

Barest_Smidgen, Pangs and The Gift would be up there for me too. That was a quick, off-the-top-of-my-head list. There are so many great episodes... Hard to choose!

acp | January 21, 03:56 CET

This is addictive...I can't stop!!!! Sunnycide, I feel your pain. I had to choose between Bad Eggs and Go Fish Shudder! I also think Into the Woods is an excellent episode. Great Riley Spike scenes in that one.

Miss Edith | January 21, 04:00 CET

acp, yep, BB is heavy with the anvil action (ha!), but I just laugh and laugh all the way through it. I guess I just don't take it seriously enough, but it's a hoot to me.

What was really hard was them putting The Prom against Pangs. I adore both so much. And Miss Edith - I feel your pain.

Willowy | January 21, 04:03 CET

This is genius. I should probably be sleeping right now but I just need to know what the next match-up will be...

Grounded | January 21, 04:19 CET

You know what? The only thing this site lacks is that you should be be able to get some kind of an account on the site (optionally of course) and then have it track your choices for you and thus make your very own top list.

Djungelurban | January 21, 04:35 CET

So it doesn't end then? Why didn't I know that. I thought it would end. I won't tell y'all how long my husband and I just spend waiting for an end. Dude, my eyes are falling out of my head.

Two cents for "Beer Bad." It's the first episode, I think, in which Sarah truly was able to show her broad comedic ability. I always laugh when I watch, even if it is a minor episode in the overall mythology of the show.

[ edited by mosie on 2006-01-21 02:43 ]

mosie | January 21, 04:40 CET

Mosie, I have a secret guilty love for Beer Bad, too. Not only for the Willow/Parker interaction, but "Fire Bad Tree Pretty."

cronopio | January 21, 04:43 CET

hmm..sorry
I can't do this.
I know what Buffy episodes were lame---
Unfortunately...two were in Season 7

Him and Same time Same place.

I was fairly disappointed in Same Time Same Place because for the first time...it was obvious....and it was written by Jane...whom I adore! but it seemed like Willow's return to "normalcy" was not "earned" the way so many things in the 'verse were. But then again it was the first time that time was against them....specially since Joss had originally wanted to turn Willow bad much earlier in the show...but Tara changed those dynamics.

Him...was just goofy and I thought it was WAAAAY too predictable...

There were a couple of Season 4 dogs but not so awful that they weren't worth watching.

so...IMHO....
a handful of dogs... over hours and hours of ecstasy...
not too shabby.

Best episodes... Couln't put them in any order.
Yoo much luvin' on too many

hbojo | January 21, 04:43 CET

Exactly, Djungelurban -- that's where I thought it was headed and why I kept going. I thought the cool algorithm was going to rank our choices based on responses and give us a chance to compare our personal list to an aggregate of the rest of the respondents. Boo. And hiss.

barest_smidgen | January 21, 04:45 CET

I notice that, as we all vote, "Band Candy" is moving up the list. Another soft-spot fave of mine. I'd like to see eps like "Normal Again" fall down the list a bit, but might I reiterate that I don't think I've spent this much time on something random and meaningless...ever.

Ironically, I'm doing this in leiu of writing an article for two conferences at which I'm presenting on, yup, Firefly. Joss' work is distracting me from work on Joss' work. I need help.

mosie | January 21, 04:51 CET

Yep, and I know they said random, but I did it for about 30 minutes (hey, I'm a sheep) and I never, ever, ever got The Body, or the Gift, or OMWF, or many others that I love. I did get Homecoming, Go Fish and and Inca MG about 5 times each. So apparently I have only affected the bottom half of the list.

cronopio | January 21, 05:05 CET

Wow! I found this really tedious. I started with the Angel and had to quit after about 3 minutes.

I guess I am not a patient person. I hope it doesn't skew the results.

The one I find really crazy is that Destiny is like number 30.

Destiny is my number one. I just skip the icky desk hump.

Xane | January 21, 05:25 CET

Ooh this is a good way to do it, though sometimes it is hard to choose - usually between the "middle" episodes. My all time favourite and least favourites are fairly well established but there are quite a lot in the middle that keep giving me grief :)
Don't think I could do this with many other shows though, I don't have strong enough feelings about individual episodes of even things like Veronica Mars or BSG which are my current favourite on air shows.

Paul_Rocks | January 21, 06:49 CET

Well, I worked on this for about 20 minutes and then read the comments where I find out it actually never ends, and now I need some Tylenol.
Willowy, I too disliked Killed By Death. A throwaway plot with the cousin who was never mentioned before and never will be again and putting it right after Jenny’s death all add up to blah. Still, I can give you several great scenes:
Willow trying to distract the security guards with the invisible frogs.
Xander and Angel showdown.
The last scene with the kids telling Joyce what snacks to bring up, and the bloody picture drawn by the boy from the hospital.
Cordelia's "Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass."
And I the no-dialogue scene of Cordelia bringing Xander Krispy Kreme.
Beer Bad was harmless in its badness, and thus kinda fun. Unlike, say, Wrecked, which was bad in the ‘ruined a bit of the show for me’ sort of way.
I don’t know why obsessed was angry after watching LMPTM, but I could guess: though the Wood and Spike fight was a great spectacle visually, the end with Spike being so flippant about Nikki’s death, and his taking back her coat in front of her son, left me yuckied. And as we were getting so near the end of the show, I just wanted all the Scoobies to put all their issues with one another out in the open, deal with them, and become a unit with the little time we had left to enjoy them as one. Instead, we get Giles going behind Buffy’s back, and the episode ends with Buffy slamming the door in Giles’ face. Then Empty Places, Touched… so much conflict and distance that them coming together at the end was not very sweet for me.

nai elske | January 21, 06:49 CET

Aw nai elske -- no love for Touched? That episode contains what is for me probably the single greatest monologue in the entire series! You know the one I mean: Spike on his knees, Buffy crying, their first honest interaction... "You're the One!" Absolutely beautiful and beautifully acted.

Miss Edith | January 21, 07:02 CET

LOL, this reminds me of the site www.kittenwars.com

I spent an age on that website voting.

non sequitur | January 21, 08:22 CET

Yeah, I found a similiar site like this one more than a year ago called Celebrity Battles, so the concept isn't new to me. But I this site ranks Buffy episodes which gives it another leve l of enjoyment (even though ranking hot girls is fairly pleasant aswell).

[ edited by Djungelurban on 2006-01-21 06:45 ]

Djungelurban | January 21, 08:43 CET

Miss Edith, again I concur. That monologue of Spike's is golden.

And I absolutely LOVE just prior where he gives the assembled Scoobies a tongue lashing for their disloyalty, then kicks it with Faith a bit (literally), then makes a grand exit, sniffs the air, and finds Buffy.

Touched has some of my favorite moments from season 7. Gahhh! Can I just say how much I'm loving the BtVS discussion? It's been sooo long!

Willowy | January 21, 09:36 CET

Having just rewatched the entire 7 years consecutively for the first time, what struck me is how much fun stuff there is even in the episodes I remember as not having liked all that much the first time. Beer Bad is pretty lame, but it does have the great Xanderisms "questing for fire", and "cave-slayer" and the scene of Buffy twirling on the seat is priceless.

barboo | January 21, 10:06 CET

It's too damn hard! I'm finding it really hard to measure early eps I love against ones from seasons 5-7, just because they're coming from such disparate places, and evoke different things in me.

And also that every ep has a super-special moment that I love. There are a few I tend to skip past; Inca Mummy Girl, Where the Wils Things Are, Hells Bells, Lies my Parents Told Me. Even those get a re-watch every now and then.

Plus, they made a mistake - Wesley doesn't first appear in Revelations, it's Gwen Post. Ha! Fools!

lone fashionable wolf | January 21, 16:31 CET

I can’t believe I clicked on the link to Celebrity Battles (I've learned, and closed it on the first: Mike Piazza vs. Ursula Aberto).
Didn’t like Touched for the exact reasons you guys did. This was one of the first episodes I saw, and I loved Spike’s speech. But after I got the DVDs and started watching in order, I realized there shouldn’t have been one in the first place. I know a lot of you really like s7; for me it was Buffy being stupid and then the Scoobies being stupid (and then in this episode, righteous Spike rescuing them all from their stupidity). We had the group fractured enough times over the years, I thought this would be the season to bring them back together, but instead we got more discord.
Hmm… strangely, this discussion has got me wanting to watch Beer Bad.

nai elske | January 21, 20:23 CET

I find this really fascinating. I too find it very hard to rank Buffy and Angel episodes. They are generally either perfect, very good, good or, very occasionally, poor. But you have to remember that when you decide an episode is "poor", it is on the Joss scale, which is higher than the bar set by normal TV. Most episodes are usually at least "very good" in my opinion.

I just find it interesting actually looking at some of the lower rated episodes. In the Angel section for example, "First Impressions" was about #101 I think (the site is currently down so I'm not 100% sure).

I absolutely adored that episode! Sure it obviously wasn't supposed to be the most epic, profound episode, but there was plenty of entertaining characterisation and most of all, a lot of hysterical humour. I think Charisma Carpenter is hilarious in this, and J August Richards is also great, bouncing off Cordy's enthusiastic helping with weary sarcasm- "Paging 'Mrs About-to-be-thrown-out-of-a-moving-vehicle". And I found Cordy meeting Gunn's friend hysterical. And let's not forget Angel in that pink helmet.

It's episodes like that, which would often by overlooked against something like "Not Fade Away" or "Hero", which astound me, because usually there is an episode that has so many entertaining features.

Razor | January 21, 23:16 CET

For BtVS, it's 'The Gift'. That episode still rips my soul apart. For AtS, must go with 'Are You Now or Have You Ever Been'. A good look at Angel's backstory and its darkness. I'm getting tears just thinking of those two episodes.

Madhatter | January 21, 23:25 CET

lone fashionable wolf, I agree, the series changes so dramatically after the high school years, it's a little like comparing oh, chocolate ice cream with creme brulee (why should apples and oranges always get the credit).

That said, if I really had to pick one episode that I would rank as the epitome of Buffydom, I would go with Graduation Day Part 2. It's got Oz, Faith, Wesley, and the Mayor who was the best ever Buffy villain. It's got Principal Snyder being eaten, one of my favorite moments in television history. It's got the culmination of the Angel/Buffy heartbreak in multiple ways. It's got Cordelia jumping into Jonathan's arms, or was it the other way around? As a major finale I like it better than the Chosen because our guys defeat the evil entirely through Buffy's clever plan, rather than a magic amulet that just happens to fall into their hands (from an evil law firm on a different network no less). I love the fact that after being the weirdo loner, Buffy gets the entire friggin' graduating class fighting together with her.

But most of all, I love that they blow up the high school, because that is just the absolute most perfect ending there could possibly be to the first three years of Buffy.

barboo | January 22, 02:45 CET

You make a good case, barboo, yet GD2 will always be second best to me as far as season enders.

Nothing can beat the agony on top of agony that is Becoming 2. And through it all, our hero(ine) never stops, wavers yes, but just for a moment. Buffy loses Kendra, gets accused of murder, gets expelled, becomes estranged with her mother, protects her friends, KILLS the love of her life, and saves the world.

THEN, heart-breakingly leaves town with a duffle as big as her little self, and overalls thirteen sizes too large, with Sarah Mclachlan attempting (and succeeding) to make us bawl our eyes out.

Absolutely perfect ender.

Willowy | January 22, 03:04 CET

Willowy,
Not to forget Willow and her resolve face, Spike's reasons for loving the world, Spike and Joyce's chat (I was always sorry that we didn't get to see even more scenes with Joyce and Spike over the years, they had such great comic chemistry). And the operatic intensity of Angel and Buffy's swordfight, the moment when he taunts her that she has nothing left (truer than he realizes) and she tells him she has herself, and stops his blade with her hands - oh yeah, I like that one a lot too.

barboo | January 22, 04:24 CET

Interesting discussion! If I were to rank them, I'd probably go: Grave, The Gift, Chosen, Becoming II, Grad II, Prophecy Girl, Primeval.

I think I put Grave first because it so beautifully and simply wraps up everyone's experiences from that past year. It has the Yellow Crayon speech, the salvation of Willow, Sarah McGlaughlin's lovely song, Spike getting a soul, Anya comforting Giles, Andrew and Jonathan running off to Mexico to be Mexicoan...many things I love.

I do debate my ordering of Chosen and Becoming II simply because of the Joyce/Spike scene (well and also cuz I don't think Joss quite managed to "buy back" Buffy's right to sleep in Spike's arms after getting "Angel breath" in Chosen). That J/S scene can still make me howl with laughter and they said barely two words to each other! I agree, it's a pity they didn't mine that relationship for more gold during the series' run.

If you're not allergic to fanfic and want a really neat take on Joyce/Spike relationship (non-slash, don't worry!) go here.

[ edited by Miss Edith on 2006-01-22 04:22 ]

Miss Edith | January 22, 06:08 CET

Oh, Miss Edith, you had to go there ;) OK (at the moment, I virtually guarantee it'll have changed by tomorrow),

Enjoyment:
Chosen, Grad 2, The Gift, Once More ..., The Prom/Lies My Parents...

Best (technically etc.):
The Body, Hush, Once More ..., Restless, Normal Again

The part in Grad 2 where the parents run away in panic and the kids throw off their robes and stand to fight is, for me, pretty much perfect Buffy. Reckon you'd be hard pressed to find a more apt way to symbolise the handing over of the generational baton than that.

Saje | January 22, 06:38 CET

Isn't Touched the one with Kennedy's tongue? I'm still traumatized...

Ilana | January 22, 14:51 CET

Willowy,

I have to agree that "Becoming" is brilliant all the way through...definitely in my top 5 episodes.

Ilana | January 22, 14:53 CET

Now Saje if we were gonna go faves overall that'd be a whole 'nother kettle of shrimp ;-) But I am curious how everyone else ranks all seven of the season finales and why (you'll note that I went with Primeval as S4's finale rather than Restless cuz it really was the finale to the arc of the season). Restless is awesome on its own but is more like a "series up to this point plus foreshadowing" finale to me. What do you all think?

Miss Edith | January 22, 17:49 CET

Ah, that makes things marginally easier (I was wrong by the way, it didn't take until tomorrow ;).

Best to worst (IMO):

The Gift - the whole episode is good but Buffy's sacrifice is just beautifully handled - what could so easily have turned to schmaltz never feels less than genuinely emotional - and the accompanying score is fantastic.

Chosen - because if 'Not Fade Away' was the perfect way to end Angel then this must be the Buffy equivalent, rousing, sad and hopeful in just the right measures. If the show as a whole had A Message then this was it writ large.

Graduation Day 2 - see above and also the mayor being so well acted and written and the same for the Buffy/Faith dream sequence.

Becoming 2 - nice action with a pretty gut wrenching performance by SMG at the end and arguably Spike's first steps on the long path towards daylight (and also everything that Willowy said).

Primeval - good for the 'You Only Live Twice' pitched battles, the Matrix homage and the way the show chose to portray the clash between science, or at least technology, and magic (and also cos it's the one before 'Restless', whaddya mean that's cheating ? ;). Not so good cos it seems a little deus ex-ish (tho' my memories of season 4 are a bit patchy) and I thought the 'Riley-bot' idea (and its resolution) was maybe a bit daft.

Grave - great for the Buffy rebirth metaphor and Dawn getting a chance to not be totally annoying and also for everyone finally seeing the Xand-man as the incredibly brave saviour of worlds that he's been all along (albeit in his own inimitable fashion) and, of course, for the yellow crayons. Not so great because tho' it's a lovely sentiment, 'All you need is love' ? Maybe a little bit pat (clearly you need a careful mix of love and extreme violence ;).

Prophecy Girl - it was the show's first attempt at a season finale and tho' it has good bits (we see early signs that it'll be Buffy's friends, in part, that as far as slaying goes make her the best there ever was) it also has her walking down the path in her white dress with the very loud over the top theme music which, for me, was the first (only ?) truly cringe-worthy moment on the show. The episode as a whole is maybe just a little bit too much what you're expecting.

But to be honest I enjoy them all to some extent. As others have noted pretty much every episode has something to be enjoyed.

Saje | January 22, 20:32 CET