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January 27 2006

Garth Ancier credits Buffy and Angel while saying "Bye" to The WB. In a mee-moe to The WB employees about to be fired, Garth Ancier mentions Buffy and Angel as two accomplishments of the network.

Please try not to feel sick when you read some of the other shows Mr. Ancier cites as highlights of The WB's history. The same website says on another page that they might change the name from The CW, even though it looks like they already have a logo.

Please try not to feel sick when you read some of the other shows Mr. Ancier cites as highlights of The WB's history.

While none of those shows are "Angel" or "Buffy", he has legitimate reason to cite all of them as highlights for The WB. Just be glad our faves weren't forgotten!
And another one bites the dust.
We’re pretty sure that Star’s Hollow isn’t actually a show, but on a busy day like this, we’ll give Ancier a little slack for making stuff up while he was on a roll.

Um, I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point....
I was surprised to read about "Jamie, Steve, and the Mowry twins." All the other shows/people mentioned were at least somewhat important to the network.
No love for Unhappily Ever After and the Wayans Bros, Mr. Ancier? Hmph!
I'm still recovering from that WB Thank You Angel promo that they aired after Not Fade Away.
Steve Harvey show at one point was one of their more successful comedies in the earlier years of the WB; as well as Sister Sister. I agree the Wayans Bros. were overlooked, but you can't name everyone.

Buffy deserves far more credit, because it came on when the network had only a Monday and Wednesday night; 7th Heaven and a bunch of comedies. Buffy hits with its 2nd Season and critical acclaim and very good viewership put the WB on the map. It was even given its own nite...."New Tuesday"
Buffy was on after 7th Heaven on Monday when it premiered wasn't it? I don't know who followed Buffy in S2 and S3.

Other than 7thH, WB had no drama hits before Buffy and considering they were both premiered in the same season, WB will always be The "When's Buffy(on)?" network, at least for me.

When Buffy premiered on WB I was only 12 and it scared the bejezus out of me. I caught a few random episodes here and there but I wasn't really into live-action TV so I didn't catch anymore for a few more years. Its funny how what I thought the plot of the show was, was really so far off what it actually was. Back in '97 I thought Angel was one of The Master's followers who had decided to help Buffy and fight against the evil, I thought Spike was one of The Master's top warriors, I thought the show was primarily a horror series. Boy was I wrong!

I'm just glad I got into the show years later(2001) and was able to watch the show on a more consistent basis and get sucked into the plot. Buffy will always be the benchmark for how I grade other shows. And when I think about it this great show allowed me to get sucked into other series. If not for Buffy I would've probably never got into Wonderfalls, Firefly, Angel, The OC(yes, Whedon shows got me there because I had other Buffy-watching friends who loved the show. If not for them I would've been prejudiced against a soapy teen show. After all I still have not watched Dawson's Creek), Alias(which lead me to Felicity and Lost), Smallville, or subpar material like Dark Angel, and Charmed. Hell, when I think about it Buffy is what made me want to watch serialized television with grand epic stories lasting for several seasons instead of stand-alone sitcoms that don't require much of any dedication. I thank Mr.Whedon for showing me just how good television can be.

I'm still recovering from that WB Thank You Angel promo that they aired after Not Fade Away.

What was that?
Nice of him to state the obvious, i suppose.

Simon, i know what you mean. That promo was the most insipid, pointless, insulting and empty of any real feeling minute or so of television i have ever had the displeasure to watch. It was bad enough that the WB had the nerve to include it in the first place but why Sky One left it in on their broadcast i will never understand.

Out of interest, is it left as part of the final episode on the DVDs or has Joss had that insult to our intelligence removed?
Its not on the DVD because its not part of the episode(unlike say the previously on's, which were left out of Buffy and Angel dvds until Angel season 5 which only had 3 that year.)
That's good to know! I had a nasty feeling that, seeing as how it had been left tacked on to the episode for the UK showing (a fact i still don't reall understand, why would Sky One viewers care to see that?) it might have managed to survive to the DVD too.
I'm still recovering from that WB Thank You Angel promo that they aired after Not Fade Away.

Thankfully, I didn't see that till well after I'd first watched Not Fade Away. My wife and I turned off the television as the credits were rolling. We were so overwhelmed by what we'd just seen that we couldn't bear the thought of some breezy promo for whatever that would was actually even worse than that, eh, Simon?!
I'm still recovering from that WB Thank You Angel promo that they aired after Not Fade Away.

Because you were surprised they made the effort? Me, too! But, as opposed to VampireWithAGun, I actually thought it was a nice thing to do (just as they thanked Buffy as it left the WB).

Yes, they cancelled Angel, but you have to give them credit for even renewing the show for a fifth season at all - and allowing Joss & co plenty of time to wrap things up. The 5th season actually remade the show into something I loved again, so it went out on top.

Credit where credit is due - I took the thanks sincerely.
Keith G, I found it gratuitous and hypocritical, a cruel slap in the face of us fans.
We're pretty sure that Star's Hollow isn't actually a show, but on a busy day like this, we’ll give Ancier a little slack for making stuff up while he was on a roll.

Um, I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point....

For what it's worth, I agree. Garth was referencing the names of the towns in which the characters reside, not the names of their shows.

While I wretch wince at the thought of watching an entire episode of 7th Heaven or Reba, I think it is fair to say that those shows helped The WB get as far as it did.

Of the current WB/UPN shows, the only ones I'm attached to are Gilmore Girls, Veronica Mars, and, to a lesser extent, Smallville; as long as they survive the transition, I don't care what they call the new network!
ChosenOne5376: to be fair, "New Tuesday" was also used to launch Dawson's Creek. If I recall, "Surprise" aired on a Monday in Buffy's original slot, then the next night the WB premiered their first Tuesday programming with "Innocence" and the debut of "Dawson's Creek." I actually have a promotional postcard for the Buffy two-parter/Dawson's premiere somewhere. Aww, "New Tuesday." Brings back memories. There was a time I was the WB's bitch, watching Buffy, Angel, Dawson and Felicity, so I do have some nostalgia now that the network is going away/merging with UPN.
Credit were credit is due!
Sorry, Keith G, but there was nothing sincere in what the WB did throughout the whole of the cancellation of Angel and the "Thank You Angel" promo was nothing more than a poor excuse for a desperate public relations attempt.

Didn't fool me then and it still annoys me now.
ChosenOne... (I'm backing up a bit here), I think eddy's "humph!" is well-deserved. While shows like Buffy ultimately made the network a mainstream success, it was black-created, starred, and run shows that launched it. The WB took Fox's model and appealed to what they considered a "niche" market (minorities) and made it seem as if they were interested in developing provocative shows. On the back of that, they built "mainstream" shows (read "white"), and when those went, they ditched minority-run programming, often only keeping such shows on with white show runners. The hypocrisy of these two networks and their supposed "support" of minority led programming is widely considered in the industry as spit in the eye of true creative diversity on television.

So if Ancier (who, I admit, I can't stand) wants to give due, he should recognize where the netlet got its start, if only to have thrown it aside when something more appealing came along.
OK, playing the devil's avatar (SP), I wish to remind everyone that the WB gave Joss a shot to air his little show known as Buffy the Vampire Slayer. The rest is history. In that sense, lets give them some credit.
Didn't fool me then and it still annoys me now.

The WB greenlighted both Buffy and Angel. They renewed Angel after season four when they could have easily dumped it then and there without a satisfying resolution. They announced cancellation early enough in Season 5 that Joss & team could plan a suitable finale.

The worst thing the WB did in relation to the cancellation was suggest they would make TV movies - trying to keep the audience on side. The "Thank You Angel" promo was well-made and something most TV series never get.
I agree with Vampire with a Gun, it was a desperate attempt to curry favor with the fan base after the damage had been irredeemably done.

The thank you, even if it was sincere (which I doubt) is still meaningless. I mean, who the hell cares? Did it really, honestly make anybody feel better about things?
The thank you, even if it was sincere (which I doubt) is still meaningless. I mean, who the hell cares? Did it really, honestly make anybody feel better about things?

Was it supposed to make anyone feel better? No. It was thanks to the series for everything it had done. It was recognition for five years of great television, as was the Buffy message (and that left under even more controversial circumstances).

I'm sure even Joss has said he appreciated the sentiment - and he lost his job!
I'm sure even Joss has said he appreciated the sentiment - and he lost his job!

You totally sure about that, Keith G? Maybe I'm wrong, but...I dunno.

But, hey, I may be wrong.

But I still found it totally devoid of sincerity and in poor taste.
Yeah, as far as i'm concerned i can only speak for myself in the matter and even if Joss did appreciate the sentiment (although how serious he was when he said that, assuming he did, would depend on just how firmly his tongue was in his cheek at the time) i can't ignore everything else that was said and done during those few months.

I frankly don't feel the need to thank them for having given the greenlight to Buffy and Angel. Networks take chances on new shows all the time. If they didn't then they would have nothing but a lot of adverts to fill their schedules with. Thanks to making the choice to go ahead with Buffy and Angel they pretty much made their name as a network. Can you imagine where they would have been if Buffy hadn't played a factor? It may not have been their only success but it was their biggest and the one that carried them for a good few years. The WB got just as much benefit out of Buffy as anyone so i see no reason to thank them especially for that. It wasn't as if they kept it on the air to do us any favours.

The cancellation of Angel was only announced early because Joss asked for an answer, not because they chose to do so. Who is to say that any of us would have known until it was too late if Joss hadn't asked? Not that finding out early did us much good, but still! I'm not going to thank them for something they had no choice about.

Then you had all the excuses thrown our way as to why Angel wasn't coming back. "We want a fresh look to the schedule so we are ending some of our older shows". Yeah, if by older shows you mean just Angel. "We need to free up some space for some exciting new series we have in development". Well, Angel finished two years ago and, short of Supernatural, i'm still waiting for any of their shows, old or new, to be remotely exciting.

Sorry, Keith G, but the WB made too many mistakes in the way they handled axing Angel and told us too many lies and excuses for me to ever take that Thank You promo as being remotely sincere. They fumbled the ball with the fans and thought that would be enough to make everyone forgive and forget. Guess they were very wrong about that.
Here's a question: If the WB truly was trying to be sincere, what do you think they would have differently? If they hadn't made that Thank You promo, would you feel like they were being more sincere?
I think I blocked out my anger to WB for axing Angel a long time ago, not because I forgave them, but because I had to get on with life, but man I took the cancelation hard, because it was for stupid reasons we now know weren't proper reasons, but when you really like a show, and it's doing well, which it was, dumb decisions make you angry.

If Garth Ancier, wanted to say somehing, he should of said "it was our mistake we canceled Angel, we shouldn't of had" etc.

[ edited by SeanValen on 2006-01-29 17:17 ]
Vampire Dan, the truth of the matter is that they didn't need to do anything at all. Shows end all the time, either because they have reached their natural conclusion or, more often, the network axes them. How many times does the network in question feel it necessary to create a Thank You promo to mark the occasion? Pretty much never. In fact most shows don't even get the consideration of their final episodes being aired.

So why do it for Angel? Not because they felt obliged to, by any means. It was because they knew they needed to play every possible card they could in order to repair the damage done to the WB's reputation over the previous months. They knew that they were looking at some serious knock on effects over cancelling Angel and the PR machine had to go into overdrive.

The Thank You promo was nothing more than a part of the need they had to try and appease as many fans as possible in order to stop them abandoning the other WB series that they have been watching. Not doing anything wouldn't have helped in making them seem anymore sincere by that point but at least they wouldn't have been seen as being incredibly hypocritical.

If they had truly felt that much appreciation to Angel, not to mention what Joss had done for the WB overall, then they wouldn't have cancelled the show in the first place whilst keeping every single other series they aired on for another year.

I'm not blind to the business and financial issues that helped the decision be made but ultimately all axed television series end because of money and ratings and they don't get a big thank you after the final episode. The only reason that Angel did was because they knew they had to be seen to care about the opinions of the thousands of Angel fans that worked their hardest to try get a sixth season made. That wasn't a sincere gesture of gratitude, it was a public relations stunt that didn't work.
Maybe the Thank You promo was The WB's attempt to keep Angel viewers from turning their back on The WB, but I don't really see anything wrong with that. Of course I'm extremely angry and upset that Angel was cancelled, and I think that the WB made a horrible mistake in doing so. But the fact that they gave us a Thank You promo, which as far as I know has never been done after the ending of any other television series, shows that they were aware of how much anger they had caused amongst the fandom and were sorry they had done so. I honestly think that the WB has always regretted cancelling Angel; look where they have landed up since!
As a PR professional, I can pretty much guarantee you that the WB hired some external firm to help with the firestorm of protest and anger over the announcement of the cancellation. I can even hear the message development meeting:

"You need to apologize without actually apologizing...people are generally quick to forgive if you don't seem arrogant, and maybe a congratulatory promo after the show ends might calm some of the fanbase down...hey, it can't hurt, and might help...have to work on the tone, though, 'cos you don't want to look like you're doing this out of weakness....we've done a SWOT (strengths, weakenesss, opportunity, threat) analysis of the situation, and you're low on strength, high on weakness, and your only opportunity that we see is a virtually cost-free thank you promo saluting everybody involved...there's no threat--hell, people already want to blow up the network!, but there's some potential upside...not much, let's go into this realistically, now, okay?! But there is possible good, and, hey, could things get any worse with these people? We strongly suggest something along these lines...."
LOL! Chris inVirginia, i'd imagine that you pretty much transcribed the exact conversation that went on at that meeting. Very funny! :)

Vampire Dan, i'm absolutely certain that they regret what they did now and i'm sure that they know they made a big mistake in getting rid of a show with such a dedicated audience. But does that make the Thank You promo more sincere or simply more desperate?

All it proved to me was that they didn't care enough to listen to us whilst there was still time to change their minds but were more than aware of just how dangerous to their viewing figures the choice was going to be. If they wanted to be sincere then they could have sincerely come to their senses and given us a sixth season of Angel rather than trying to get away with a thirty second promo to make the problem go away.
I find it hilarious (and somewhat troubling) that nearly two years after the cancellation people are still saying they are angry and upset. You know if they'd renewed it for season 6 and 7 it'd almost be over now anyway!

VampireWithAGun - you say you don't give the WB any credit for greenlighting the shows in the first place and yet as far as the cancellation is concerned you give them no way out! They didn't do what you wanted, so they are wrong. They thanked the show (as they should have, as they did with Buffy) and you insist on an ulterior motive; yet you also say The WB had Buffy/Angel to thank for their entire network existing. So the right thing to do was worship at the altar of Buffy/Angel, but thank them - no that's just insincere!
Had they renewed it for seasons 6 and 7 then nobody would mind it nearly being over now as that would have been as Joss had wanted it to end. Story completed, no problem. None of us wanted it to go on indefinately and certainly not beyond the point where Joss believed the story was told. However, that hadn't happened at the end of the fifth season.

As for the fact i don't think they were being sincere, it isn't to do with the fact they cancelled Angel, in itself. It is how they did it and how they dealt with everyone involved that i have a problem with.

Fox cancelled Firefly. It sucked and i wish they hadn't done so but at least they were sincere in how they acted. They didn't try to make out that it was because they felt Firefly had reached it's "natural conclusion" or tell us that they wanted to clean house with some of their older series (whilst renewing every single other series they had). The WB did nothing but make excuses, pass the blame and, in some cases, just outright lie to us throughout the entire affair and yet now i'm supposed to believe that the Thank You promo was anymore sincere than anything else they said and did at the time? I don't think so!
The WB did nothing but make excuses, pass the blame and, in some cases, just outright lie to us throughout the entire affair

I'm sorry, I didn't realise you actually worked for Mutant Enemy...

They lied to you? How so? There was a show and then there wasn't a show.

What excuses did they make? Who did they pass the blame to?
If you read my previous posts, Keith G, you will see exactly what i was talking about regarding the excuses and lies. And what does whether or not i work for Mutant Enemy have anything to do with the matter? I'm talking about the way they dealt with the fans who worked hard to try and save the show.

They lied to us on many occasions, giving "reasons" why they had no choice but to cancel Angel. That they "considered that the story was now told" or that they "needed to end some of their older shows to make room for the new look they were planning for the new season". I won't go on because all of this i have said before, further up the thread.

The point being that at no point in all the months that the Angel fans worked to save the show did we ever get a straight answer from the WB. They constantly tried to make themselves look like the innocent party or disguise the true financial reasons of this behind lies they believed would make agree with what they were doing, just so we wouldn't abandon the rest of their schedule. The promo was simply a last desperate grasp at appeasing as many Angel fans as they could so that they would stick around for the next Angel-less season.

Note to the WB. You want to look sincere? Don't treat your fanbase like children and simply tell the truth that you don't want to pay for the show anymore. We won't like it any better when the show ends but at least you will have been honest about your decisions and not wrapped them up in excuses to make yourself look better.

Then again, it's a little too late for the WB to learn to be sincere about anything isn't it! ;)
Keith G: I'm sorry, I didn't realise you actually worked for Mutant Enemy...

That's a tad snarky, especially seeing as how you appear to be a shill for The WB!

And, and end to it.
I apologise to both Chris and Vampire for the snarkiness.
Apology accepted, Keith. Forget all about it. :)

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