"If I ate your head, two thirdsss of your agents would praise me in poems and sssong."
February 26
2006
Are shows such as 'Buffy' and 'Angel' more fake than wrestling?
Comparing the Whedonverse to the world of wrestling.
Well never really saw that connection coming...
Faith
| Games
| 17:19 CET
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58 comments total
| tags: buffy, angel, wrestling
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I think I missed an episode.
gossi | February 26, 17:23 CET
Faith | February 26, 17:25 CET
gossi | February 26, 17:29 CET
@theonetruebix | February 26, 17:44 CET
gossi | February 26, 17:52 CET
Faith | February 26, 17:55 CET
gossi | February 26, 18:02 CET
I don't seem to recal hearing that Joss "demanded" to know about Angels renewal. And the "storyline that went nowhere" about the Scoobies not trusting Angel anymore? Might that have been something set up for the following seasons? We don't all have the attention span of a goldfish, you know!
"During the height of its popularity, Raw and Smackdown were considered very cutting edge with compelling storylines and razor sharp wit." That would be in that bizzaro-world without shrimp, right?
zz9 | February 26, 18:13 CET
There was an article out a while ago where David Fury said basically that. And that sorta sparked a Joss post which sparked a David post....if I recall correctly.
ETA: And I do! Discussion can be found here
[ edited by Rogue Slayer on 2006-02-27 01:23 ]
Rogue Slayer | February 26, 18:21 CET
"the plotline that went nowhere of the scoobies not trusting angel"- did the article seriously say that?? Ummm... that wasn't so much a plotline, as an interesting reaction to the fact that angel had seemingly aligned himself with a shady deal- wolfram and hart! i mean come on! it was just good writing! i mean- they could have gone into more detail about it...or it could have just been there, as a multilayered detail about the characters universe, consequences etc...
Drusillaloveskyo | February 26, 18:21 CET
As previously mentioned the fact that Buffy and the Scoobies didn't trust Angel anymore wasn't dropped so much as cut short by the small matter of the show being axed. Buffy didn't fight evil puppets, she fought alongside one heroic puppet. I won't even begin to imagine where he was going with the bestiality thing.
Speaking of the paragraph on supposed "bad taste" storylines, was anyone else a little pissed off with the suggestion that Willow "turning gay" was listed in that section? How was that in any way bad taste? And since when have references to orgies or penis and masturbation jokes been classed as storylines anyway? Talk about grasping at straws!
I usually love to read well thought out comparisons between Whedon shows and other series but this was far from well thought out and barely a comparison at all. Terrible article!
[ edited by Vampire With A Gun on 2006-02-27 01:44 ]
WhedonTrivia | February 26, 18:33 CET
Calledon | February 26, 18:33 CET
Simon | February 26, 18:34 CET
The writer seemed like a fan of BtVS/Angel to me, but he was trying way too hard to fashion an article from what is not much more than a fun pub discussion. Still, it's probably a funner read if you're a fan of both Whedon and wrestling.
(ETA) Oh, The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco is in my top five Angel episodes - off-beat genius.
SoddingNancyTribe | February 26, 19:00 CET
And I think trying to read an article about wrestling has made me hurt inside.
nna_funk | February 26, 19:05 CET
WhedonTrivia | February 26, 19:16 CET
impalergeneral | February 26, 19:34 CET
ps...how frickin' cool are these guys?
pps...gotta love the penis jokes from Spin the Bottle--wait, what was this post about again? Difference between us and them? Our writers CAN write and WWE writers should be shot.
MySerenity | February 26, 19:54 CET
And it's hard to take an article seriously when there's an ad on the sidebar about women's wrestling being "a night of erotic insanity".
kishi | February 26, 20:11 CET
"Buffy and Angel also struggled in their last two seasons to maintain consistency. Like Raw and Smackdown, they would often resort to "Shock TV" rather telling consistently good stories."
I don't think the reviewer and I watched the same season 4-5 of Angel and Buffy (well, Buffy it's hard to say, I haven't actually finished yet...)
Anusien | February 26, 20:26 CET
I actually really liked Angel's last two seasons in comparison to Buffy's, in the fourth season it was a massive arc but each episode actually had something of a plot in itself (road trip episode, memory loss/fake time-travel ep, apocolypse ep, bodyguard ep, zombie ep, theif caper, etc) and in the fifth it tried to go back to stand alones (I think the Mexican wrestling episode was terrific and I hate wrestling as a whole).
As a whole it's a stupid argument though. "Hm, let's contrast two series that in no way claim to be reality, and a sport event where everyone is aware it's staged in spite of claims otherwise!"
orangewaxlion | February 26, 20:42 CET
crossoverman | February 26, 20:45 CET
Capt Mel | February 26, 21:02 CET
ETA:
Wow, you think you feel ashamed? I posted in that friggin' thread and didn't know David Fury posted in it until just now.
Yikes on me...
[ edited by UnpluggedCrazy on 2006-02-27 05:22 ]
UnpluggedCrazy | February 26, 22:08 CET
I saw the headline and I expected... I'm not sure exactly what. Since I couldn't imagine what could put wrestling and BtVS/Angel in the same article. But maybe some argument about how people who criticize shows like Buffy for not being "real" enough should realize how fake the "real" stuff on television is? Anyhow, whatever I was expecting, it wasn't that. As others have mentioned above, the "amazing similarities" he points out simply... aren't. They all tend to either be things that happen on any TV show, or they simply aren't really similarities.
But my favorite quote of all from the article is this: "During the height of its popularity, Raw and Smackdown were considered very cutting edge with compelling storylines and razor sharp wit."
Um..... what do you say to this? Better just to accept that our tastes differ... Though i suppose good to know that Buffy and Angel fans can come from all types, and appreciate a wide array of genres...
(also, that "bad taste" gay storyline... grrrr. One of the few things in there that made me mad as opposed to just making me laugh at the absurdity of his arguments).
acp | February 26, 22:43 CET
Isn't wrestling just a couple of people whacking each other? Oy, things sure have come far since I've last seen a wrestling program.
And I'm with the others on the "bad taste" thing. That whole thing turned a midly amusing article to just plainly hateful.
NickSeng | February 26, 23:22 CET
See the connection? It's all so very clear!
Nebula1400 | February 26, 23:51 CET
(sigh)
What everbody else said.
newcj | February 27, 00:38 CET
Wrestling -- People breathe.
Buffyverse -- People breathe.
Wrestling -- Stuff happens.
Buffyverse -- Stuff happens.
Wrestling -- And even more stuff.
Buffyverse -- And even more stuff, too!
Okay, sarcasm off.
I stopped reading when the author said that Buffy and Angel like to recycle plotlines from each other. Hello?! There are only so many supernatural tropes you can call on before you have to start duplicating!
BAFfler | February 27, 00:46 CET
Because the basic question at the foundation of this article is: is a *scripted* fantasy TV show with supernatural occurrences more or less *fake* than *scripted* live performances of a *fake* sport show?
Well that's a question for the ages, isn't it? (Note sarcasm) Sorry, but it's kinda ludicrous. And he may be a fan, but the way he tries to twist elements in the shows as hideously as possible in order to prove -well I'm not even sure what he's trying to prove- is just forced and ill-conceived. Bestiality?? Characters 'turning gay' in 'bad taste'? Or my favorite: 'References to orgies'. Oh no! They 'referenced' several non-existent fantasy beings having had off-screen group sex. Heavens... Reaaally digging there, weren't you?
And then stretching all that into a comparative link to wrestling? Well in the sense that all entertainment that is in serial, recurring form and uses some form of storylines will always have some things in common I suppose. But that's hardly worth an article, and it could easily be applied to any number of such entertainment.
(Steven Grant in his column has compared the wrestling federation's attempts to sell its product to the comic world. He makes a stronger case. But he did so mainly in terms of the marketing and promotion tactics.)
Reading this article, at best I can say 'huh, look at some superficial, out-of-context examples kind of comparing to the wrestling world if you look with squinted eyes and shut half your brain down'. And then it still says nothing about the concept of 'fakeness'! To quote the Princess Bride line: "You use that word a lot. I don't think it means what you think it means".
EdDantes | February 27, 02:35 CET
Other than that, I agree with the general concensus of this being a pretty bad comparison.
Oh, and add me to the growing line of people feeling ashamed they'd missed that Fury post. Heh. I read (but, fortunately didn't post in :-p) that thread almost up to the point where Fury posted, but probably lost track right before. And yes, I missed his '24' post as well. Jeez ;-)
GVH | February 27, 03:12 CET
(I don't know how that relevant, but sometimes my brain is on random mode.)
onesnailshort | February 27, 04:27 CET
Oh, cruel, cruel world that has such Mondays in it.
(i'm not even gonna ask about the Easter Bunny).
Saje | February 27, 04:47 CET
Oh, you just made a penis joke! That's bad taste ... and a storyline ... apparently! ;)
And, Saje, don't worry about the Easter Bunny. It's real. It's actually a demonic seven foot tall rabbit that goes around killing children at Easter by shoving overpriced novelty chocolate eggs down their throats but it's real!
Sorry, watching Darkness Falls has coloured my opinion on cute childhood fantasy characters for all time! :)
[ edited by Vampire With A Gun on 2006-02-27 12:00 ]
WhedonTrivia | February 27, 05:00 CET
Mine too - especially in season 5 itself, which is not my favourite season.
Mehitabel | February 27, 06:48 CET
zeitgeist | February 27, 08:55 CET
Mine too - especially in season 5 itself, which is not my favourite season.
^^^^I really liked it as well, which makes this unfortunate to say the least: http://imdb.com/title/tt0457510/
I encourage you to watch the trailer and try not to flinch.
MySerenity | February 27, 09:17 CET
eddy | February 27, 10:01 CET
(And, yeah, when I saw the Nacho trailer, I immediately thought of "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco," which happens to be one of my least favorite Angel episodes.)
[ edited by UnpluggedCrazy on 2006-02-27 17:10 ]
UnpluggedCrazy | February 27, 10:09 CET
When it first aired, I just thought it was strange (and not in a good way), and actively disliked it. I remember talking to my then-boyfriend by phone and both of us saying "what the hell was that??" But subsequent viewings actually made me appreciate it a lot more, and I think my initial reaction was partly because I knew nothing whatsoever about Mexican wrestling. I still wouldn't put it up there among my true favorites, but it long ago left "Why We Fight" and "Life of the Party" in my "worst of season 5" mental category, and now I see some of that "off-beat genius" that MySerenity mentioned...
acp | February 27, 10:21 CET
But, UnpluggedCrazy, we will just have to go to war over my beloved Napoleon Dynamite!
Chris inVirginia | February 27, 10:56 CET
UnpluggedCrazy: wow, you hated Napoleon Dynamite that much? I remember not being able to involve myself in what was shown on screen, simply because I did not like any of the characters, but the movie itself was actually pretty decent. Just not something I'd watch again.
GVH | February 27, 11:03 CET
MySerenity | February 27, 11:57 CET
Pro Wrestling - Pre-determined - yes. Fake, no. Yeah, a lot of those punches don't make contact, but a lot of those moves do, and while the point is not to actually hurt the other guy (and yourself), accidents do happen, especailly considering some of the crazy stuff some wrestlers do for the fans. So, before you use the F-term, I reccomend looking up Darren Drozdov (paralyzed by a botched running powerbomb), and Eiji Ezaki (paralyzed when his foot got caught in the ropes while doing a Quebrada, also called a Springboard Moonsault).
That said, I had to take the article with a substansial grain of salt, as it's specifically comparing itself to the WWE, which, wrestling wise (and anymore - storyline wise) has had some absolutely horrible storylines and booking in the last few years (John Cena and JBL's one-year title reigns, putting Johnathan Coachman (who is more annoying than Jar-Jar Binks and the Wayans combined) at the announce table, forbidding the criserweights from doing the high-risk moves which is part of their appeal in the first place.
Further more, with every Buffy/Angel storyline which the article's writer compared with a WWE storyline, Joss executed the storyline much, much better then the WWE did. Sure, on Buffy or Angel we wouldn't see a hurracanrana or a suicide plancha (though, in all fairness, we wouldn't see those in the WWE anymore *grumbles*), we wouldn't see anyone give birth to a hand either.
For the record, I don't particularly watch the WWE's programming anymore. The good booking has really been on Raw, but that's on cable so I don't have that, the cruiserweights don't do the high-risk moves anymore on Smackdown, and the local fed (Portland Wrestling), and the far superior alternative to the WWE (NWA-Total Nonstop Action), is on cable. So, that leaves me with Ring of Honor DVDs, and downloaded matches from Japan.
EDIT: And, of course, DVDs of old ECW events. Would it be blasphemy to compare Paul E. to Joss?
[ edited by Count_Zero on 2006-02-27 19:34 ]
Count_Zero | February 27, 12:03 CET
zz9 | February 27, 12:16 CET
And, they were all both horrified and refusing to believe when I or my fellow students tried to tell them it wasn't "real" in the sense they thought it was. I had more than one person tell me I didn't know what the hell I was talking about and of course pro wrestling was a legitimate sport. Others looked like we'd just crushed their lovely bubble of an illusion. Kind of like saje and that easter bunny... :-)
acp | February 27, 12:30 CET
The WWF was forced to change it's name to WWE by the World Wildlife Fund in a lawsuit, as the Fund registered the "WWF" trademark in the UK before Vinnie-Mac did (although Vince's WWF is, IIRC, older). Long story short, Vince lost the suit, and was forced to drop the "F" from the name of the company "World Wrestling Federation Entertainment". Hence, "WWE".
EDIT: This is the point in which fans of wrestling who follow both the business end and the in-ring end (or "Smart-marks" or "smarks"[1] to used the kayfabed[2] term) feel that the decline of the booking and writing went down-hill even faster.
[1]"Smarks" is derived from the two kayfabe definitions. The kayfabe definition of "smart" is someone who knows that wrestling is pre-determined. A "mark" is someone who thinks that wrestling is real, or at least watches wrestling as if it was real. Thus, a "smart mark" or "smark" is someone who knows wrestling is pre-determined, but appreciates it as if it wasn't (in other words, enjoys good storylines as well as good in-ring work).
[2]Kayfabe is a term (and the term describing the slang derived from it) going back to the old "carny" days of Wrestling. Think here of the days of the first issue of Spider-Man, where Spidey was in a "last 5 minutes in the ring with the heel-wrestler". Basically, "kayfabe" means (sort of) "What happens in the ring is real and not predetermined (sp)". Kayfabe essentially died after the infamous (and widely known in smark circles) Montreal Screwjob and the fallout thereof.
[ edited by Count_Zero on 2006-02-27 19:47 ]
Count_Zero | February 27, 12:37 CET
That always gets me in trouble.
But I can honestly say that, along with Office Space, Napoleon Dynamite is the unfunniest comedy I have ever seen. I didn't laugh once at either of those, and actually had to grab a book to prevent myself from falling asleep.
UnpluggedCrazy | February 27, 14:53 CET
The first half of Office Space was brilliant. I should have turned off then. I can see the humor of Napoleon Dynamite, but it was trying just a little too hard for my taste. Still, definitely preferable to, say, most recent National Lampoon stuff. Or whatever the latest shock "comedy" is from those brothers.
There are certain highly-rated movies I dislike too, UC, most notably American Beauty. I think it's OK to dissent once in a while. :)
SoddingNancyTribe | February 27, 15:37 CET
Understandable, as wrestling storylines generally go by feuds, and the really good storylines (Vince McMahon vs. Steve Austin, Raven vs. Tommy Dreamer and Bret Hart vs. Shawn Michaels, among others) are few and far between, and are generally more notable for the matches that the storyline lead to, rather then the promos that built them up, with some exceptions.
Count_Zero | February 27, 16:02 CET
Actually, we like almost nothing that enjoys great popularity. Don't say that out of snottiness...just the fact of the matter.
Chris inVirginia | February 27, 16:06 CET
Then, ofcourse, I do agree that everyone is allowed to dissent. I, for instance, don't get why the whole world is in love with Tarantino. All flash and no substance as far as I'm concerned. Yep, you can hit me now. ;-)
GVH | February 27, 17:55 CET
"Your mom goes to college."
Makes no sense as an insult, and I can't think of it without breaking into laughter.
Thankfully, Buffy, Angel, and Firefly dialogue is easier to repeat to people and get the hoped-for response (had a conversation this afternoon with a new convert about Willow as Old Reliable...the Geyser...no, that was Old Faithful...wasn't Old Faithful the dog...Old Yeller! Xander, never help me.
And, I finally won a terribly skeptical pal over for Firefly with Mal's casual stabbings of Atherton Wing...
Chris inVirginia | February 27, 18:04 CET
My Ff converts tend to get hooked when Mal kicks bad-ass into the engine. Go figure, but it's the truth. *shrug*
Willowy | February 27, 18:26 CET
(For the record, my husband adores Napoleon Dynamite, but I was in the wrong mood when I tried to watch it and only made it through 20 minutes. I plan to try again another time. As someone else said, it was just trying too hard for me. But Office Space - especially the first half – is brilliant. Not quite as brilliant as "The Office" with Ricky Gervais, perhaps, but still quite funny. I do like both American Beauty and some Tarantino films, but can't abide Titanic, A Beautiful Mind, Good as it Gets, or Ray – all of which seemed to be universally adored. And my husband detests The English Patient with a fiery passion.)
acp | February 27, 18:39 CET
I tend to try to customize each potential convert...the skeptic I menitoned above loves military history, so when I told him about the whole Civil War allegory, he was mildly interested. But he also likes sly, sardonic humor, so when I told him about that scene with Atherton, he was sold.
He's the one who, very early on, saw something in Book that was, as he put it, "more of the quarterdeck than the cloister."
Then there are the folks who hear "Whores are social elites" and that's all they need...!
Chris inVirginia | February 27, 18:44 CET
SNT, we disagree on a couple of movies you listed, AB of course (did we talk about that one before?), and Napoleon. In my opinion, it didn't try at all. That's what makes me crack up so much. It's just a few days in the life of this huge geek who is completely unlikeable, but in the end becomes a hero of sorts, winning the day for Pedro (yes, I sported the shirt for a week or two), with his 'sweet disco moves' (again, confusion). Then goes back to his weird little life. It doesn't sound funny at all by that description, but it is to me. I'll usually stop if I'm flipping and it's (did I use the right one? ;P) on.
Willowy | February 27, 18:56 CET
A lot of people do make the "style over substance" point when it comes to Tarantino, but I find there to be a lot of depth in most of his movies, except for perhaps Kill Bill: Vol. 1. But Vol. 2 is all about character, and greatly enriches Vol. 1.
But, to whoever said they hated Titanic...amen, brother. AMEN.
And am I the only one who hates Brazil?
UnpluggedCrazy | March 01, 11:36 CET