Whedon has admitted that the opening of the film doesn't fit with the series and, in fact, said at the Melbourne Q&A that he "fanwanks" that Simon was lying... though he hasn't got an explanation as to why. Although it seems obvious that Simon wouldn't tell the crew she was a weapon - because they would be less likely to keep her/them!

crossoverman | March 03, 09:46 CET

I think one can argue it does work though, even if one has to do a little creative backpedalling. It may have been unintentional, but Maher often played Simon from a place of strength, except when the scripts required he almost revert to a child-like behavior, like in his dealings with Kaylee. The first time one watches the series one could dismiss Simon as a spoiled brat with lots of intelligence but no wisdom. I think when re-examining Simon post film viewing, you can see he's downright shifty and when it comes to his sister, almost sinister in his dealings with anyone he doesn't trust. He'd let his guard down around Kaylee and Inara, but with Jayne, Mal, and even Book he is always very guarded and on the defensive. The fact he was hiding a secret the whole time lends more credence and motive to his behavior, even if Maher may not have been playing the role knowing his character's motivation.

I'd like to hear more about Maher's intentions towards the motivation of his character. Whedon talks in the film commentary about how he wrote some flaky dialogue regarding Inara's trunk and both Fillion & Bacarrin came up to him and imprinted motivation that would force the dialogue into working on screen. That's what good actors do. Maybe Maher had in his mind the whole time filming that Simon knew more than he let on, even if Maher himself didn't know what that 'more' was. Again, whether intentional or serendipitous, it does work.

ZachsMind | March 03, 10:11 CET

Very interesting, ZachsMind. The difference between what Simon saw in the lab in the beginning of Serenity and what he didn't seem to know in "Ariel" had bothered me, too, and caused me to do some "fanwanking" of my own.

I definitely agree with Joss' (and your) fanwank that Simon was just plain lying to hide River's training/fighting skills in order to protect her onboard Serenity. As Simon, Mr. Maher did seem to be hiding things quite often, whether it was feelings or facts. (Maybe that's why Simon is featured in so much slashfic???) When it comes to what Simon knew about the neural stripping? Well, you do have to aim an MRI or other internal scanner at something, so even if Simon didn't know exactly what it was he was looking for, he knew where to look, didn't he? He may also have been told that there was "neural stripping," but not have known exactly what they did as part of the procedure, since it is a pretty gruesome/nonmedical thing to do. That's my fanwank about it. :-)

billz | March 03, 11:55 CET

I believe the original draft of Serenity had two (new) men breaking River out, but it was changed to Simon later in rewrites.

And I'm glad it was changed. It establishes Simon just wants to protect River and is willing to risk anything; it establishes Simon loves River; it establishes it's a story about family.

gossi | March 03, 15:03 CET

Some of the fanwanking works, as far as I'm concerned. Sure, he wouldn't tell the crew she was a weapon. But in the series, he seems as suprised as anyone that she may have psychic ability. And that shouldn't have been a surprise.
On the other hand, I am willing to accept that as he is breaking her out, he is a quivering mass of nerves underneath that cool exterior. He interrupts Mathias as the good Doctor is explaining her medical condition - surely something Simon would have wanted to know.
So, information might have been said, but there is no guarantee that Simon was actually listening.

Lioness | March 03, 17:04 CET

But in the series, he seems as suprised as anyone that she may have psychic ability. And that shouldn't have been a surprise.

People keep seeing this. But at no point during the series, when I rewatch it, does SImon have a reaction that could not be interpreted either as "he doesn't know" OR "he's pretending not to know."

Can you provide an example of a moment in the series where Simon's reaction to the notion can't be interpreted both ways?

The One True b!X | March 03, 20:18 CET

What? you are asking me to watch the series again? *sigh* If I must....

Lioness | March 03, 23:42 CET

Oh, Simon sure would be surprised. He's a doctor. A scientist. He's not about to believe in "psychics". Especially not his former lab rat sister. Disturbed? Hell, yes. Psychic? Balderdash!
Remember how Scully didn't believe any of that supernatural/UFO crap until she actually witnessed and experienced things? Remember how surprised she was?
Anyway, Simon had to lie to the captain about River. This is a crew of petty criminals and outlaws, and they're not looking to have someone that's this kind of trouble onboard their ship.
If you were on the run from the government...for stealing something of theirs that they'd want to keep secret at all costs...and you booked passage on a ship to get far far away, would YOU be telling all of your business to these strangers?
"Hi! How're you doing today? Me? I broke my sister out of an Alliance facility where they've been training her to be a living weapon! A psychic weapon on top of that. People are going to be looking for us and will most likely do anything to get us back. Maybe they'll put you in jail or even kill you for your troubles!"
Um, no. I'm thinking not. I'm thinking you tell these people only what they need to know and lie your ass off about the rest.
Simon thought that he and the box would be onboard for only little while. Just long enough to put some distance between he and his sister and the Alliance. No need to tell all.
But someone saw him. Dobson. And there begins our tale.
; )

AmazonGirl | March 04, 00:06 CET

Lioness, I always thought that the brother in him overcame the doctor in him at the moment that Simon interrupted what the Doctor was saying about her medical condition. I felt like it was one of those moments when he was afraid that if he heard the Doctor say too much more he would not be able to control himself. At that moment the most important thing was to get River out. The medical info was important, but not if it made him loose control and get them caught.

My take after seeing the movie was that Simon knew generally what they were trying to do to River, not necessarily what they had done in order to accomplish it. I should watch Ariel again to see if it works in the context of that episode, but his confusion at what he was seeing in her brain would make sense if he could not see the way what they were doing to her could lead to their stated objective. "Why would they do that." Gee, I ask that question here at work all the time for the same reason. ;-)

As for him not knowing she was a pyschic, I thought he had a pretty good idea that she was a pyschic and was trying to either hide it or deny it to himself from my first veiwing of the series, long before the movie ever came out.

newcj | March 04, 00:10 CET

Double post because the computer lied to me.

Uh, hi everybody! (waves uncormfortably)

[ edited by newcj on 2006-03-03 22:12 ]

newcj | March 04, 00:11 CET

My take after seeing the movie was that Simon knew generally what they were trying to do to River, not necessarily what they had done in order to accomplish it. I should watch Ariel again to see if it works in the context of that episode...

It does. That's largely what the linked audio commentary here is all about.

The One True b!X | March 04, 01:41 CET

I've heard Joss speak on this subject a couple of times, and I get the feeling that he is focusing so much on how he mapped things out in his head, that he is kind of forgetting what he actually put on the screen. When I watch the TV pilot and hear Simon tell naked-shivering-just-out-of-her-crate River that we're safe now, and later hear River say to Simon I didn't think you'd come for me, I think that meshes perfectly with the rescue depicted in the movie, and conflicts with the idea that it was other people who did the rescuing.

Everything else is just Simon being guarded and keeping his cards close to his chest, which is natural given how protective he is of River. At no point did he ever lie to the crew, though he certainly didn't tell the whole truth.

AlanD | March 04, 05:14 CET

As theonetruebix points out above, if you guys listen to his audio commentary you'll see this works perfectly. If I ever get around to doing my audio commentary of "Safe" I may elaborate on this more myself. For now, here is how it works.

To make the fanwank work, you have to accept the following:

1) Simon knows more than he's letting on.
2) Simon doesn't know everything.

This is actually VERY easy to do. Perhaps the crux of this is the exchanges between Mal & Simon in the dining area. The first one's in the pilot. The second one's in the film. In the pilot, Simon describes his childhood with River, and how they're both very gifted, but she was smarter than he. We can assume all this to be true, although I imagine there was sibling rivalry he didn't divulge, cuz he started to lose his audience.



Now we had assumed from the pilot that this underground movement, these men, did all the legwork. That Simon just paid them, waited a few days, picked up a package at Persephone and rushed to the first ship heading out that would take him and a large box with no questions asked. From the movie, we learn that while everything Simon has said can arguably be true, he selectively omitted information that Mal and the others simply didn't need to know. When we see "Ariel" we learn that Simon can be quite the mastermind, if his sister is at stake.

But what was he looking for? If he already knew that they did something to her head, just how much did he know? As Billz pointed out, at the hospital ward when Simon's looking at a futuristic MRI of River, watch the graphic. He goes STRAIGHT to the nervous system, removing all other visuals of other systems in the body. Simon knew he was short on time and he knew where to look. He just didn't know what he'd find. So this may not have to be a fanwank. I think of it more as a No-Prize. I can't find any pieces that don't fall into place with this concept that Simon knew more than he let on but not everything.



Simon's whole motivation was keeping his sister safe. Everything hinges on that. So it's very VERY plausible to assume that he would lie, and omit knowledge to both the other characters in the story and especially we the audience in order to accomplish that goal. NewCJ and others have pointed out that there are times when it appears Simon's surprised to learn River's a psychic. That's easily No-Prized away too. Simon knew they were doing behavioral conditioning, but to take a human brain and turn it into a receiver for psychic energy? Even if plausible evidence of that were presented to him, his clinically and medically trained mind would not have been able to just accept it outright. He woulda been in a state of denial. So perhaps who Simon was really lying to was himself.

Five hundred years from now it's still not an easy leap to assume that psychic energy is going to be determined to exist scientifically, much less that someone can cut into a brain and redesign it so that it can detect such things.

Technically that's NOT what the Alliance did. Even they don't have the ability to literally turn someone into a psychic if they weren't already halfway there. They simply enchanced River's already intuitive capabilities to a point where... Well, hehe.. that's going into an entirely different avenue of fanwanking and no-prizing, and this has already gotten rather long. I'll put this to you though. Watch the series again and pay attention to when River exhibits displays of psychic phenomena. Who is she 'reading' more often than the others? Who can she NOT read, even if she wanted to? Like I said. Whole new avenue of fanwanking there. =)

[ edited by ZachsMind on 2006-03-04 05:25 ]

ZachsMind | March 04, 07:21 CET

Hey folks, it is fine and good to tell me to listen to the commentary. The thing is, I do not have the time just now to experiment with listening to the commentary much less listen to it. I have never tried to watch a DVD while listening to something else at the same time on the computer. If that is not the idea, then it won't work because my computer is in a different room from the DVD player.

I've also got a party for my son tomorrow, so I'll sign off for now.

Oh, and I was trying to say that since my first viewing of Firefly, I always got the feeling that Simon knew River was psychic but was alternately in denial about it or trying to hide it.

newcj | March 04, 09:09 CET

Wait, ZachsMind. What are you saying? I'm intrigued!

billz | March 05, 01:58 CET

This has already fallen off the front page so I doubt you'll see this billz, but here goes.

In a nutshell, River reads Mal more than anyone else on the ship. When Book is shot in the episode "Safe" it's not until Mal sees Book on the groud that we see a reaction from River. I think that was very choice editing on the part of Michael Grossman and would not be surprised if Joss Whedon had personal input on how that got done. There's also other points in the series when River doesn't react to other people's thoughts but she reacts quite particularly to Mal's. We see this in the film too. She actually mouths the words coming out of Mal's mouth at one point. We never see her do this with any other character on the ship.

When Kaylee freaks out in War Stories and later Objects In Space, River isn't reacting to what's going on in her mind. She gets put off by Kaylee's physical reaction and body language, but she doesn't realize what's going on in Kaylee's mind until after she groks from her behavior that Kaylee's scared of River. Also in Objects In Space, at the beginning as River is walking through the ship and looking at the others, she can't read Kaylee AT ALL. And some of the phrases she groks from what appears to be thoughts from others on ship? Some are more cryptic than others. I'm of the opinion that most of her psychic ability is educated guesses.

Jayne's "I got stupid the money was too good" and Book's "I don't give half a hump if you're innocent or not where does that put you?" Those are easily written off as educated guesses. I think most people's minds are shut off to River, and 90% of what's going on with her is very high level intuition coupled with an unique understanding of human behavior mixed in with probability variables. She "does the math" and calculates almost subconsciously what most likely happens with an individual's past and future. Like Sherlock Holmes' deductive ability, but much more intricate.

However, when it comes to Mal? I can't just write it off. She can actually read him so well it's gotta be psychic ability. Either that or he's such a predictable person to her that she gets the math spot on. At any rate she's watching him VERY closely for some reason that we may never glean. In "Safe" she even metaphorically describes him as a father figure. She's very close to him.

ZachsMind | March 05, 20:59 CET

Thanks for replying, ZM! I monitor the "Recent Comments," so I did find this. Hope you do the same! :-)

I definitely was agreeing with you about Mal being easy for River to read -- same scenes in the movie you mention, as well as the "Love" speech at the end (which she asks him to say out loud anyway). I hadn't thought of those Firefly scenes you mention, so thanks! I also agree she sees Mal as a father figure, and vice versa; I think Mal is seeing River as a surrogate child or, at least when he's teaching her to fly Serenity, a protege. For example, when Mal picks River up in the Maidenhead bar and carries her out, it looks like a picture of a father scooping up an injured child.

I like your comparison of River to Sherlock Holmes. I think that keen observation can seem like "reading," since most people don't notice even the most obvious things! However, I hadn't a clue as to whom in particular she can't read, so I'm very glad you replied about that. It's interesting that you mention Kaylee; I would have thought that since River and Kaylee are friends, she might be able to read her, but now that you mention it -- maybe not! ;-)

What do you think about this: I think maybe River has a problem reading Simon, too, as in the movie where she knocks him out as she breaks out of the dining area because she was "afraid he would put her to sleep again" (he says, "You could have asked," which a reader would never need to do!). And River's thought that Simon was thinking, "I'd be there now..." in "Objects in Space" could not only be an educated guess, but even a kind of guilty assumption that a sister would make if she thought her older brother was annoyed with her. (A lot of "Objects in Space" seems like River is assuming everyone is sick of her, in kind of a teenage/"nobody loves me" way, especially according to Joss' commentary.) I wonder, would you agree that maybe Simon is so closed off that even his own sister, who if not a full-on reader at least has high intuitive abilities coupled with excellent ability to make educated guesses, can't get a read on him?

billz | March 06, 03:51 CET

Good observation about Simon. It's possible it's selective reading. Maybe she has to feel invited? This would go into psychobabble quarterback psychiatrist crap again, but we're talking about brains so why not? Perhaps Mal's active attempts to push people away is unconsciously an effort to be heard? So unconsciously he's more open than other people.

Perhaps the closer someone is to her the less comfortable she feels about prying. Simon and Kaylee are to her like your close friends and family. If you had psychic abilities would you want to look in the minds of those closest to you, or would strangers be more appealing? Less of a chance of sensing something you wouldn't want to know.

Again back to the opening in Objects In Space. The phrase Simon says in her mind allegedly? His emotions on that are pretty much on the surface. She probably knows that one without delving into him psychically. Why would he not wish he were back at the hospital? It's an easy guess.

I think she got Book completely wrong. Not that he cares more than he gives off in her 'reading' but he doesn't care that little either. He could be more apathetic. I again think that's an educated guess.

She was being more empathic than psychic with regards to Zoe and Wash. I've often assumed that the ocean was Zoe and the fiddling was Wash, but it might be just as intriguing to learn it was the opposite. River coulda been spot on with that one but again, it's an educated guess, and it made her nauseous which goes back to Whedon's DVD commentary talk about Jean-Paul Satre.

ZachsMind | March 07, 07:39 CET

Good point about not wanting to pry into your closest friends'/family's thoughts. Could explain Kaylee and Simon, indeed.

Book does seem to puzzle River, as when she wanted to "fix" his Bible and he had to chat with her about that. Maybe his wild hair in that episode ("Jaynestown") made her fear him a bit, and steer clear, thus misreading him later? Or, as I had thought about that line in "Objects in Space" ("I don't give half a hump..."), maybe she was "reading" remnants of his previous profession, when, like the Operative, all he cared about was the apprehension of the quarry, not the quarry's guilt or innocence.

Interesting question re Zoe and Wash. Could go either way; Zoe is powerful like an ocean, but her emotions are less accessible than Wash's, which could make him like delving into an ocean. Their relationship would certainly be both attractive and overwhelming to a 17-year-old who has no context for sexuality, as River has (straight from childhood into ninja training and neural stripping, no natural development of adolescent yearnings, etc.).

River's ability to read, intuit or guess well is a highly interesting line of inquiry! :-)

billz | March 07, 11:31 CET