Whedonesque : Comments on 9763 : Joss Whedon appears on tonight's MTV UK's 'Screenplay'.

Yes, there's a new tidbit. Spoiler follows:

Judi Dench is totally playing Spike's alter ego, Spock.

Shocking.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-03-10 19:13 ]

gossi | March 10, 21:12 CET

What'd I miss? Is the Spike movie further ahead than it's been? As in, no more "we're talking about it" and now "we're REALLY talking about it"?

I mean... is it time to celebrate, or continue keeping the hope alive?

TheZeppo | March 10, 21:19 CET

If this was filmed during the promotional tour for the Serenity DVd, its interesting that the website only mentions the possible Spike TV movie. Then again, there are a lot of Buffyverse fans in the UK.

killinj | March 10, 21:20 CET

I'm still recovering from Joss' last appearance on MTV. Talk about a career nadir. I just wanted to hug him, Summer and Nathan afterwards.

Simon | March 10, 21:22 CET

I did not engage in any mocking of the MTV presenter Alex Zane at any parties later that day. He did a really majestic job last time.

gossi | March 10, 21:25 CET

Hey, you gotta promote to idiots too. There aren't enough of us with good taste out there.

TheZeppo | March 10, 21:27 CET

The only things I ever liked about MTV were Daria and Celebrity Deathmatch. And, now apparently, Joss.

UnpluggedCrazy | March 10, 21:40 CET

And soooooo... this is something us poor colonial saps won't get to see?

Haunt | March 10, 21:45 CET

Yep.

gossi | March 10, 21:53 CET

Could someone please upload this after it's aired, even if it's another camera at the TV job like last time!

Ghost Spike | March 10, 21:58 CET

Hah. In yer face America. Did you really think 'Ned and Stacy' would go unpunished ? We remember everything !

Saje | March 10, 21:59 CET

Did you really think 'Ned and Stacy' would go unpunished ?

Oh, you think we can't do worse than Ned and Stacy? Just you watch...

Rogue Slayer | March 10, 22:00 CET

nevermind.

[ edited by TheZeppo on 2006-03-10 20:03 ]

TheZeppo | March 10, 22:00 CET

Yep! We are the British Empire! All hail The Alliance! This post has no humour! Sorry! But there's more exclaimation marks!

gossi | March 10, 22:01 CET

So, what do you all think the Spike movie will be about?

Part musical, part film noir, it's a heart warming tale of family values and murder. With beagles.

gossi | March 10, 22:03 CET

TheZeppo, we can talk about "good" and "bad" taste (in themselves, subjective) without using words like "idiot", right?

jam2 | March 10, 22:13 CET

Yeah, I meant two different things with that post. I've never watched MTV UK but if it's anything like ours, it's mostly catered to idiots, and I think that MTV would even agree to that (off the record, of course)(I hope, anyway).

MTV viewers are rarely the type to savor Joss's work like we're able to.

Didn't mean to offend. I love all people. :)

TheZeppo | March 10, 22:19 CET

Joss told me in secret about what the Spike movie will be about...and although I kept it secret for a while...well I cant hold onto it any longer. I'd describe it as needing a wee after drinking many gallons of water

This is what he told me the synopsis would be

Obviously spoilers will follow

Its an erotic thriller, set in Chicago, in which Spike goes undercover as an undercover reporter going undercover as a showgirl named Bitsy Malone. Meeting handsome young police detective Mason Andrews, together they work together to save the crumbling city of Chicago from the evil D'Illyria, offspring of D'Hoffryn and Illyria (cousin of M'Fashnu) with lots of violence, nudity and hilarity....and yes Beagles.

Joss says look out for the emotionally resonant scene where Spike tenderly exposes his left breast to Mason, before having lots of vicious pool sex. (Elizabeth Berkely makes a cameo as a pool cleaner). Speaking of cameo's, teenybop sensation and brother of a Backstreet Boy, Aaron Carter pops up in a comedic yet heartfelt role that has him tipped for an Oscar. Look out for such hits as "Crazy Little Party Girl" and "I want Candy" being performed in a variety of outfits including 'Naughty Nurse' and 'Frisky Fireman'. I wish Aaron well in his role.

Its going to be good.

Only don't like tell Joss I told you.

Apocalypse | March 10, 22:25 CET

Actually LOL, Apocalypse ;). Is a 'vicious pool' like, overchlorinated or something ?

Also, gossi, if it's 'part musical, part noir' does that mean it's a black screen with songs ? Does James still get royalties if his face doesn't appear ?

Great ideas, only problem is, no-one dies. Can it be more deathy ? Maybe the entire population of Chicago or, if we're actually meant to care, one of the beagles ?

Saje | March 10, 22:35 CET

You know what would be interesting?

A love story enveloping between Spike and Illyria.

Obviously without the tradition cliches. You can't undercut Wesley and Fred's relationship even though both of the characters are gone. But that could be one of the many complexities: the fact that it's Fred's likeness and body, but no trace of her at all. Leave it to Joss to reinvent the word 'love' and I can see the potential of it in a story like this.

TheZeppo | March 10, 22:38 CET

Joss says look out for the emotionally resonant scene where Spike tenderly exposes his left breast to Mason

Okay, so, this is my favourite post ever.

By the way, I wouldn't call MTV viewers idiots. That said, I'm currently watching it, and it's a reality TV show about going to the prom with screaming people and, well, my head hurts.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-03-10 20:53 ]

gossi | March 10, 22:50 CET

So fickle ...

;)

Saje | March 10, 22:55 CET

Hmmmmmm deathy......

Well...now that I've told you so much, im sure Joss wont mind me telling you the ending.

INT. CHURCH
Its the wedding day of MASON and SPIKE. The church is full of congregators and confetti, and MASON is standing at the front of the church in his suit. His best man, detective KATE VALENTINE looks wonderful in a vibrant burst of fuschia. MASON looks worried

KATE VALENTINE
Its Ok Mason! Bitsy will be here in a minute! She loves you and I just know that this day will be the first of the rest of your life

MASON
We'll be together forever and ever

KATE VALENTINE
Forever and ever and ever

MASON
Forever and ever and ever and ever x infinity

KATE VALENTINE
Yes Mason. I'm sure. Nothing will spoil this happy day

MASON
No nothing could possibly go wrong. Even though I didnt actually kill D'Illyria and only left him for dead

KATE VALENTINE
No, he definetely wont turn up today and kill you

MASON
No

And then the beautiful organ music starts up, and in slow motion SPIKE, in a beautiful Vera Wang dress walks up the aisle. MASON smiles, the happiest day of his life. Everybody gasps in awe at how beautiful SPIKE looks. This day could not be more perfect. SPIKE smiles at MASON, and MASON smiles back. Everything is perfect. Electric guitar suddenely begins playing and we see (OH MY GOD!) that D'ILLYRIA is walking behind SPIKE...WITH A GUN!!!!!!!!!!

D'ILLYRIA
Take this Detective Mason Andrews......Deceased!!!

And then he shoots the gun and runs out of the church. And the bullet hits MASON who looks at SPIKE

MASON
Your shirt....

KATE VALENTINE
Technically it was yours Mason

And then MASON falls to the ground in slow motion. There is screaming everywhere and SPIKE rushes up to MASON who is lying on the floor, dying. He looks into SPIKE'S eyes

SPIKE
Mason luv. Don't go! I love you! I need you!

MASON
Just remember....I will always love you....and your beautifully sculpted left breast....GEEEEHHHHHH

MASON dies, his head lolling on the floor. SPIKE looks up to the top of the church and the we get the token "Shawshank Redemption" shot

SPIKE
Nooooooo.......MAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will avenge you!

CUT TO BLACK

The End.

Hows that for deathy? And yes...the pool is overchlorinated. Perhaps lethally so. Its very scary.

Apocalypse | March 10, 22:59 CET

Apocalypse -- you forgot about the party scene where there's nothing to eat but shrimp!

Miss Edith | March 10, 22:59 CET

Our younger posters might not be aware that once upon a time the MTV channel actually played music videos.

Anyway the show has started. Expect a summary from us UKers shortly.

Here we go.

Joss says James is interested, they've talked and we would find out what happened after the end of Angel.

[ edited by Simon on 2006-03-10 21:07 ]

Simon | March 10, 23:00 CET

We also had some cool clips of Spike.

gossi | March 10, 23:11 CET

Jeez, Apocalypse, you're really pressing my horror buttons. Since I was a small child i've been terrified of chlorine (not so much the gas but, man, pretty much all the crystal forms give me shivers) and weddings. Still, thank God the beagle didn't get it.

And wide open for a sequel. 'The Sculpted Avenger' ? Stinks of franchise (and chloriney evil).

Yeah, don't listen to Simon, America. There was way more to it than that. It was a Whedon cavalcade, a cornucopia of Jossy goodness. Who knew they had to cut so many nude scenes with James ? Plus, free gold oozed out of the TV. I shit you not.

Saje | March 10, 23:16 CET

They are reviewing Serenity on DVD now. "A must see". "Funny, sharp script".

gossi | March 10, 23:26 CET

And? And? Go on!

Lioness | March 10, 23:32 CET

Err, did we mention the free gold ? And embedded in the signal was the meaning of life. Couldn't make it all out but chocolate was definitely in there.

The actual Joss segment was about 30 seconds long and as above had no real new info. on the Spike movie (we already knew it'd be post NFA, right ?).

Later on in the show, Serenity was reviewed, they showed a few bits from the trailer especially the 'Or we could talk more' River finds Miranda segment and as gossi mentions it was a great review. Ironically, for the MTV audience, I might actually have had more of an explosions and hot babes element to the clips but maybe i'm being condescending.

Then the entire cast of the movie visited each and every viewer and served them Ferrero Roche while dancing the hula (Nathan was particularly impressive, he really does have the legs of a dancer).

I kid of course. Joss' segment was actually more like 40 seconds.

Saje | March 10, 23:47 CET

I thought the bonus feature they showed of Sean Maher bathing himself in the bath for 30 minutes was a bit too excessive. But them, I'm British.

gossi | March 10, 23:51 CET

Yeah, in the special untapeable, unbittorrentable, never to be repeated segment ? Didn't realise Alan swung that way, but hey, more power to him.

And did they really need four elephants ? Seemed a bit much.

Saje | March 11, 00:00 CET

Can i just say that despite the fact that MTV UK has apparently forgotten that it is supposed to feature music now and again, MTV2 is far better and plays a wide selection of excellent music, largely from rock, indie and alternative bands, both old and new. Plus it's the television home of the brilliant Zane Lowe. Definately the superior music channel if you actually want to listen to music and not be subjected to boy bands or Britney!

I missed the interview due to spending the last hour on the phone with my lovely lady but but it's good to know that the Spike movie continues to be mentioned. Post NFA is exactly what i want to see.

Buffysmglover | March 11, 00:00 CET

Leaving the Mingo and Fanty comedy duo comments aside, Joss saying the Spike movie is set post NFA is news to me.

Simon | March 11, 00:03 CET

Simon, it's been said before. The only slight bit of news - I think - is that Joss said there's been multiple talks on it.

gossi | March 11, 00:05 CET

I think it's been pretty much assumed that the Spike movie would be after the end of Angel, at least in part because of the fact that Amy Acker has mentioned that Joss has talked to her about appearing in it as Illyria. Short of fitting it somewhere in the last five episodes of Angel it would need to be after Not Fade Away if that was the case.

Buffysmglover | March 11, 00:09 CET

I hadn't heard it would be post-NFA before, and I'm very, very glad that it will be. Flashbacks are fine, but I've always felt it would be a huge waste to to set it in the past after how much character development he went through.

Ghost Spike | March 11, 00:09 CET

So, here's a question (yes, I'll be serious for at least the next 1 post);

Where does Spike go from here (refering to 'Not Fade Away')?

gossi | March 11, 00:16 CET

Disneyland?

Ghost Spike | March 11, 00:27 CET

Gossi, that depends entirely on the status of everyone else in the alley after the events of that night, not to mention what it took to get out of there in one piece.

I've said before when i've been discussing the possibilities open to Spike for future development that the sky is the limit. It gets very old listening to opinions saying that his story is over and everything possible has been done with him when actually his tale is potentially only just beginning.

If Angel was to fall that night would Spike choose to pick up where he left off and continue the good fight? Would he go back to Buffy? Would he and Illyria stay together? Would he open a burger joint in L.A.? The truth is that Spike's life could go in any number of new and interesting directions after NFA and the only limit to where he may end up is the extent of Joss Whedon's imagination, which we all know is pretty much limitless.

Buffysmglover | March 11, 00:31 CET

Does it open at night ? I would pay actual folding money to see Illyria beating up a Mickey impersonator while Spike hits on a Snow White.

I really see a Spike/Illyria partnership to be the most logical future for them both. Any vestiges of Fred would lead Illyria to like Spike since Fred did and with Wesley gone she'd still need someone to mentor her in our wacky ways. I could see them trying to take care of the darker new Slayers (as in Damage) or just generally being free-lance good-guys.

Also, we know David B doesn't want to appear and (despite what people may want to think) Gunn is, to me, definitely dead so they're actually the only ones left (though bumping into Lorne would be great, despite him being through with the fang-gang, and any other Buffyverse cameos, also to the good).

Saje | March 11, 00:31 CET

Simon, you are right.. I try to read everything that is Spike and I don't think Joss has ever said definitive that the movie would take place AFTER NFA. (though most of us assumed it would)

spikeylover | March 11, 00:34 CET

Our younger posters might not be aware that once upon a time the MTV channel actually played music videos.

I've heard chatter that the Netherlands MTV actually plays videos still.

On a board for the band Stream of Passion one of the band members asked the fans to mail MTV with requests to play one of their videos. Later, somebody said that MTV NL has played the video multiple times.

I didn't think that species still existed! They would NEVER do that in the US.

[ edited by Caleb on 2006-03-10 22:42 ]

Caleb | March 11, 00:40 CET

Where can it go after NFA? Be interesting to find out.

It's been a long journey for the fandom, I hope we get word soon one way or another on whether the movie is going to happen.

Simon | March 11, 00:41 CET

I just came in from work, flicked on BBC4 and caught the end of what had evidently been a quite lengthy Serenity segment. Clips of Joss , clips from the film, talk about Firefly, Browncoats and the internet campaign/ viral marketing. Very complimentary and ending in a plug for the DVD. I was trying to post a " heads up" but I'd already missed most of it and the segment finished faster than I could type:(

debw | March 11, 00:50 CET

If that was on The Cinema Show (with Stuart Maconie) then it's repeated tonight at 12:55 am.

Though there's a lot of story possibilities with Spike, does his character have very far to go ? He seemed to have made peace with his inner poet and monster by the end of NFA. What else does he have to do to grow ?

[ edited by Saje on 2006-03-10 22:56 ]

Saje | March 11, 00:54 CET

I suspect if it's going to happen we'll find out if it's going to enter production within the next year.

From a commericial point of view, you'd pitch a Spike project first, then hang Illyria off it for a possible 2nd project (if the first is successful). For a DVD premiere project I'd speculate there's a lot of money to be made, but in terms of convincing everybody of that, and getting the thing written and all the resources in scheduling in place... Quite a project to realise.

What else does he have to do grow ?

One word: change. The word fans love and hate.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-03-10 22:57 ]

gossi | March 11, 00:56 CET

What, you mean die ?

;)

Saje | March 11, 01:52 CET

One of our readers emailed me to say that Joss did mention last year that the Spike movie would not be a prequel.

Relevant Whedonesque thread.

Simon | March 11, 02:02 CET

Though there's a lot of story possibilities with Spike, does his character have very far to go ? He seemed to have made peace with his inner poet and monster by the end of NFA. What else does he have to do to grow ?

People, particularly fictional characters, can have multiple spurts of growth and change. Maybe he regresses. Maybe he loses his mission. Maybe he gets married and has kids. I think there are a ton of things you can throw at Spike that might make a great character arc.

Rogue Slayer | March 11, 02:24 CET

i realize the Angel comics are not necessarily "canonical" but does joss have a hand in shaping the storylines for those? just wondering because if so, some post-NFA answers are theoretically being provided there. i haven't read them because i'm, uh, lazy, but i skimmed them in the comic book store and saw plenty of familiar faces.

Scotto | March 11, 02:28 CET

I know most people don't want to see Spike shanshu (yes, yes, I know it's a noun, but for brevity's sake, gimme a break and let it be a verb), but Spike is a hugely compelling character to me, and I'd hate to see James 'have' to stop playing him because of a few wrinkles.

I think Spike's "heroic Buffy/Angel story" may have already been told, but he had a rich history before he hooked up with B, and he could have incredibly creative future stories written for him, as well. He could play Spike his entire life, revisiting the character on occasion (with Joss involvement please), if they'd only remove the anti-aging obstacle. The only way I can see that happening, is if they let him shanshu.

Willowy | March 11, 03:10 CET

I dunno Rogue, those ideas sound a lot like knock him backwards a few steps so that he can 'develop' back to where he was (BTW, I wasn't being rhetorical with the question, just uninspired, i'd love to see him move forward but I just can't think of how at the moment, lucky we have a Joss to do that for us ;). Apart from married with kids which seems a bit implausible as long as he's a vampire and still doesn't, IMO, have a clear character arc.

Yeah, Willowy something as drastic as sanshuing ( ;) might be what's required but the problem with that is that I wonder if, afterwards, you'd still have Spike or if it'd be a fundamentally different character. I sort of feel like we'd be losing him if that happened but I can't quite put my finger on why (I don't think it's just the loss of superpowers aspect and it's not like he broods about his vampirism in the way Angel does so it shouldn't be as fundamental a part of him). Maybe I feel he'd just be another 'hero with a past' that we've seen so many times before.

Might be interesting to see how he deals with it though, especially if we got a few movies over time and could actually see him age and start to confront his own mortality.

Saje | March 11, 03:51 CET

James will be in his 50s soon enough - is it really worth removing the vampire element and shaping his character accordingly? I don't know.

You have to be supremely careful not to jump the shark with Spike - and I think Joss gets this more than we know. The Fonz. It's a thing.

As the characters stand in Angel, they went out legends. Unless you have a story there - one which actually needs telling - you're pissing things up a wall.

gossi | March 11, 03:57 CET

I'm glad the "Old Friends" comics aren't canon because Joss will do so much better when he gets around to it. I won't spoil anything, but Gunn has an eyepatch. Hellloooo.... it's been done.

JusticeDemon | March 11, 03:57 CET

I've long thought that the shanshu could well belong to Spike, while he may not be as much the stereotypical hero as Angel, I believe he's the better man, his path t'ward redemption started before he even got a soul, Angel without a soul is an evil bastard. And while Angel has had a soul much longer than Spike, and we don't know what Spike would do in the next 100 years or so, Angel has still done questionable things with a soul.

I'd love to see human Spike wondering what to do next, to have to face mortality, to decide whether he wants to try and pursue some kind of normal life or to continue to fight the good fight as best he can. It'd be great to have the movie pick up a few months or so after the end of Angel with a human Spike wanting to be left alone for a while, and then have something drag him back into the fight. As a human he could be considerably weaker, would he decide to leave and allow people to die in order to remain safe, would he fight on knowing it could kill him, or would he try and find some way to restore his supernatural strength.

Also, making him human would enable him to play the character for as long as Joss, James and the studio want.

Ghost Spike | March 11, 04:01 CET

Saje, I know what you're saying. There is another possibility, though.

There's always Dru.

Spike could shanshu, for a movie or two, he can age a bit, then... guess who'd come back and re-vamp him? Hey, she did Darla. Evil (wonderful) bitch that she is, she'd do William again, in a heartbeat (no pun intended).

Willowy | March 11, 04:05 CET

Yeah, gossi, desperate as I am for more of the character, i'd hate for us to leave him on a less resonant note than NFA. If there really isn't a story that can end with the same mythical tone then maybe Joss should let sleeping dogs lie.

Similarly, i'm actually quite 'happy' for Gunn to be dead. He knew what he was doing and met his end with eyes open, sword in hand. For him to have got through it (apart from being hugely unbelievable) reduces his final bravery. Gunn of all people knew that everybody dies (with his background he probably, slayer style, didn't expect to live much past his mid 20s anyway). What matters is how you go out.

Ah, yes Willowy, i'd forgotten about everyone's favourite sire-for-hire ;). That would be one fairly believable way to allow him to age though once re-vamped he'd have to re-re-aquire his soul as well which could end up feeling a bit contrived. As a few have said, I don't think i'd be willing to see Spike fall all the way back down the snake to square one after he's worked (and suffered) so hard to become the champion he is now.

I reckon there has to be some way to work it though. Maybe the PTB's extract a price in life-force for some good cause or other ? (OK, that's maybe a bit naff but it's proof of concept only ;).

Saje | March 11, 04:30 CET

I write fanfic, but I don't write Spike/Buffy. So I'd love some more canon with Spike. New characters, new situations, sounds wonderful.

lycoming | March 11, 04:34 CET

It's certainly true that Spike had reached something of an end to one stage of his development but i think what many fans forget is that Angel had already reached the point were Spike is now before we even met him in Welcome to the Hellmouth. He had been the evil badass vampire, had his soul restored and decided to become a champion long before we first saw him onscreen. The character arc we saw Angel go through on BtVS and in his own show was not one of internal development but one of outside forces (Buffy, Wolfram and Hart, Darla, Spike, etc) influencing what he had already become.

Any future stories that are to be told about Spike are likely going to be more about testing him as a hero and seeing just how he is able to deal with life as a champion out on his own, rather than as Buffy's boyfriend or as Angel's sidekick. All we know is that he has good intentions but not whether or not he really has what it takes to be the kind of champion he thinks he wants to be when it isn't to impress Buffy or piss off Angel.

Spike had definately developed as much as he could as long as he remained in the shadow of others. Putting him out on his own brings a whole new range of issues and pressures that would force him to really be a hero for all the right reasons and test him to new limits. Can he work alone? Can he lead? Does he even want to? I reckon Spike has a long way to go yet.

Buffysmglover | March 11, 04:42 CET

Saje, since we really don't know what all the Shanshu entails, maybe even if he was re-vamped, he'd still have his soul. Could work. I'm with you in that I wouldn't want to see him be total in his vampness again. It would be square one, and a waste of his character development thus far.

VwaG, I'm also interested in seeing the scenarios you propose. And I agree, he still has a long way to go.

Willowy | March 11, 04:53 CET

I was thinking an interesting premise for a Spike series would be that getting Shanshu (assuming Spike gets it) was a gradual process: Maybe each episode he gains some human characteristics and loses some vampire ones.

A lot of people are really opposed to Spike getting Shanshu but I think it could make for some very interesting storylines. We've already seen the story of a vampire with a soul fighting for redemption- now I'd like to see the story of a vampire who's found redemption and has to figure out what to do with it.

vampire dan | March 11, 06:17 CET

True, but I think what Saje was saying that if he gets the Shanshu, he loses his vampire self altogether. So, as I brought up, maybe there's an alternative to that. What do you think?

Willowy | March 11, 06:55 CET

Back when Joss announced the new Buffy: Season 8 comic, he mentioned that there would be some sort of story arc happening between the comics and the Spike movie. Which certain sounds cool and sounds like Joss has something cool in mind than just milking the Buffyverse because it sells, which isn't something I can see him doing anyways.

Joss has also mentioned way back in a interview with Chud.com, that in the Spike movie he might deal with story that is seen in flashbacks in the Fray comic, where magic, demons and other supernatural elements disappear from the world for hundreds of years. I think this would be an incredible story to tell, with things kicking off with the Spike movie and continuing over into other Buffyverse DVD movies and comics. Especially, since I imagine that no matter how successful the Buffyverse direct-to-DVD movies are that there would eventually be an end to them and with them the end of the Buffyverse and what better way to end it all, but with a story dealing with something that destroys all that is supernatural that really wraps up the franchise. Something like that, is one of the few ways I seeing the movies having an ending that manages to surpass the end of NFA.

Matt_Fabb | March 11, 08:50 CET

Saje: Yeah, gossi, desperate as I am for more of the character, i'd hate for us to leave him on a less resonant note than NFA.

I think that mistake was already made once, after "Chosen" (though apparently it was forced on Joss by the studio or network). While it was great to see more of Spike, I don't think his resurrection was "earned", to use one of Joss's favourite expressions.

I was disappointed with Season 5's handling of both the Spike and Shanshu prophecy story arcs. Maybe having Spike shanshu could put this right, if it was done well.

Come to think of it, "shanshu" means live and then die, so strictly speaking Spike will only have "shanshued" if he ends up dead!

tichtich | March 11, 14:51 CET

Wow, i'd missed that first time round Matt_Fabb, good catch.

Well, the death of magic in the world would definitely have enough mythic resonance though I guess it'd preclude a lot of potential future Buffyverse stories. Maybe averting the death of magic could work as well, some kind of alternate reality thing with Fray. I dunno but fertile ground anyway.

Now if we can just get around the ageing thing. How about a Spike-Nip/Tuck cross-over ? Season 4 Ep 5: William The Bloody. 'So tell me Mr The Bloody, what don't you like about yourself ?'

tichtich, yeah, I agree that his resurrection wasn't quite as hard as say Buffy's but then Spike isn't really the sort of character that would spend a lot of time introspectively tearing himself up over his 'purpose' or why he was back.

I really think Spike added a lot to Season 5 though. It was great to see Angel have a foil that was his equal in every way. And the shanshu ? Liked the way they used it to introduce conflict and develop Spike and Angel at the same time. They both grew because of it. Plus, one of my favourite bits in the season (maybe the whole show) was Angel's meeting with the Black Thorn, where they ask him to sign away his one chance at true happiness and he just does it. He doesn't even blink. Maybe his most heroic moment ever and I don't think i've been prouder of the character.

Saje | March 11, 15:04 CET

Gossi wrote "James will be in his 50s soon enough - is it really worth removing the vampire element and shaping his character accordingly? I don't know."

I know that we've been waiting for this movie for what feels like a very long time but I seriously doubt that we have another 7 years to go which is what it would take for James to be ( just) in his fifties. Having said that James gave Joss a five year window beyond which he would not be willing to reprise his character, and that clock is ticking.

James is also very well aware that any continuation of Spike's story would have to add something to the legend and have something to say about the character. If Joss gets the money and James signs up then I'm sure we'll end up with a quality product and hopefully the doorway to the continuation of other character's stories.

*If* we get the movie I see no problem with Joss/Tim finding a rich and fulfilling story to tell of how Spike copes after the events of the alley. I rather fancy Spike teaming up with Giles and learning to be a watcher , after all it was foreshadowed in Restless. Cheese of some kind could be involved.

[ edited by debw on 2006-03-11 13:34 ]

debw | March 11, 15:07 CET

Well I have just run around my house screaming with happy excitement because Joss said on MTV UK just now that he is looking into it and James is interested and it would explain what happens at the end of Angel. WOOOOHOOOOO! Somehow I dont think he would have said that unless he had serious plans for it! Yayyyyyyyy!

Joss rules! | March 11, 16:11 CET

I have tried to record the clip, its not fantastic but for all you curious people here ya go http://www.geocities.com/josswhedonsslayer/ASF_0003.wav it will play in windows media player.

Joss rules! | March 11, 16:49 CET

tichtich said:
"I think that mistake was already made once, after "Chosen" (though apparently it was forced on Joss by the studio or network). While it was great to see more of Spike, I don't think his resurrection was "earned", to use one of Joss's favourite expressions."

I've always felt that even though Spike's death was the perfect way to end his journey through season 7, his gradual acceptance of a soul and what he was, it was nothing more than a tool to get him over to Angel. Death was the only way to get him there, as was having him trapped there at first, Spike hates/d Angel, the only way he'd spend time with the guy was if he were forced to.

We may never know for certain if Spike would have died if he hadn't been added to the Angel cast, as I said, it was a great ending to his journey through season 7 (I'm not at all upset that they brought him back, the character still has to grow before he finally passes on), but would they have given him a happier ending, or an ending that saw him live but seperated from the group, so one day we could rejoin him.

Ghost Spike | March 11, 18:34 CET

Ghost Spike wrote: I'd love to see human Spike wondering what to do next, to have to face mortality, to decide whether he wants to try and pursue some kind of normal life or to continue to fight the good fight as best he can. It'd be great to have the movie pick up a few months or so after the end of Angel with a human Spike wanting to be left alone for a while, and then have something drag him back into the fight. As a human he could be considerably weaker, would he decide to leave and allow people to die in order to remain safe, would he fight on knowing it could kill him, or would he try and find some way to restore his supernatural strength.

This line of thinking fascinates me, too. We know that as a vampire, Spike always thought of his human existance as mediocre and pathetic. What kind of human would he become after having fulfilled the requirements of the Shanshu? If he accomplishes something on the order of what Matt_Fabb suggests from the Fray comic (which I'd love to see), then it seems to me that the Spike character has many ways in which to grow as a character. He would get the chance to be the man he never was but that he dreamed of becoming the first time around.

I think the emotional depths are there to be plumbed. With Joss and James involved, this new movie could be the start of something very satisfying that would certainly add to the character's continued development in an intersting way.

greenlady | March 11, 18:35 CET

With regards to my James-in-his-50s comment, and 'jumping the shark' - I'm only refering to the prospect of having multiple Spike related projects (which, by the way, I don't see ever happening). A DVD premiere takes a long, long time to organise I understand, so if they did a series of them around Spike, the aging factor would become a bit of an issue. I strongly suspect a better pitch would be to have any other DVD projects around a different character, and probably kill off Spike too.

I believe Joss and Tim have a story for this. Why? I know Joss wouldn't push for it if he didn't. I know Tim wouldn't offer to write/direct it if there wasn't a decent story. I also suspect if the idea was utterly shit, James wouldn't want to commit to it.

So, I'm happy enough. That said, the only way this is going to be a good project is if - first of all, it happens - and secondly after it's out people flood the internet going "OH MY GOD HOW COULD THAT HAPPEN THATS NOT SPIKE!!@~" and such. If people come online going "Hey, Spike was funny and sexy, that was fun!" I'll know it shouldn't have been made.

Spike being a hero, training to be a slayer? Ahem. I don't think Spike is either of these things. What path Spike takes could quite literally be anything, and that's the joy of the character.

Regarding the spinning off from Buffy Season 8 (comics) and Fray lore - interesting times, definitely.

[ edited by gossi on 2006-03-11 16:50 ]

gossi | March 11, 18:48 CET

Hey, I'm all for Spike shanshuing. I recently watched SOUL PURPOSE again and it occurred to me that Angel's nightmare is actually Spike's life.

spikeylover | March 11, 18:54 CET

I've always felt that even though Spike's death was the perfect way to end his journey through season 7, his gradual acceptance of a soul and what he was, it was nothing more than a tool to get him over to Angel. Death was the only way to get him there, as was having him trapped there at first, Spike hates/d Angel, the only way he'd spend time with the guy was if he were forced to.

We may never know for certain if Spike would have died if he hadn't been added to the Angel cast, as I said, it was a great ending to his journey through season 7 (I'm not at all upset that they brought him back, the character still has to grow before he finally passes on), but would they have given him a happier ending, or an ending that saw him live but seperated from the group, so one day we could rejoin him.

I think that the plan was to have Spike sacrifice himself in the end all along, before he had been added to the Angel cast. And I actually think that this plan should have been changed once he was added to the Angel cast. Up until that point, most of the resurrections in the Buffyverse had not retracted from the characters' deaths, but Spike's death and resurrection was pushing the limit for me- we had already seen similar things happen to enough other characters. I think Joss should have changed his plans and have Spike live through the apocalypse- and then have some other reason for coming to LA (I'm sure Joss could have thought of something).

vampire dan | March 11, 19:09 CET

Ghost Spike wrote:
I've always felt that even though Spike's death was the perfect way to end his journey through season 7, his gradual acceptance of a soul and what he was, it was nothing more than a tool to get him over to Angel.

I'd prefer not to believe that Spike's resurrection was planned all along, as that would only make it feel even more contrived. For me, it undermined the meaning and poignancy of his self-sacrifice, and therefore of the ending of BtVS. That loss needed to be paid for by making his story in Angel particularly significant and well told, which in the end I don't feel it was. The story arc in which he was set up as a rival for Angel--particularly over the Shanshu prophecy--had great potential, but that potential wasn't fully realised in my opinion. Just when it finally seemed to be developing strongly (in the episode about the cup of perpetual torment), it was thrown away by making the cup a fake, after which the rivalry was largely forgotten (as I remember it). Also, we never got a satisfying explanation of how and why Spike was resurrected. (OK, Lindsay apparently did it for revenge on Angel. But that feels too easy and contrived to me.)

To be honest, I like Spike so much that I find it hard to regret his resurrection. I just wish more had been made out of it.

tichtich | March 11, 19:25 CET

I don't know, tichtich - I liked the fact they didn't play Spike and Angel too much. It would have got old very quickly - Spike suddenly wanting to be human and all that raz. Spike works best when he's the opposite of everything Angel stands for.

gossi | March 11, 19:29 CET

I see what you mean, Gossi, but the idea of Spike usurping Angel's role works for me. I didn't see it being about what Spike wanted, so much as being about how the prophecy would play out. Also, in my mind, the most important element of the prophecy was the part dealing with the vampire's role in the coming apocalypse. The part about becoming human seemed less significant, since Angel had already had that once and given it up.

I suppose I just have a preference for stories being resolved. All through the season I was waiting for a "So that's what it was all about" moment. And it never came.

tichtich | March 11, 19:51 CET

I see what you mean, Gossi, but the idea of Spike usurping Angel's role works for me. I didn't see it being about what Spike wanted, so much as being about how the prophecy would play out. Also, in my mind, the most important element of the prophecy was the part dealing with the vampire's role in the coming apocalypse. The part about becoming human seemed less significant, since Angel had already had that once and given it up.

In fairness, some of this was dealt with in season 4 of Angel.

I think, really, the show was called Angel and it was David Boreanaz's show - if Spike had turned out to be 'the one' or some such, I could well see David and a lot of the fans going mad.

gossi | March 11, 20:01 CET

We can't hold the writers to blame, we know that they were pretty much counting on getting a sixth season. For most of the second half of the season Angel and Spike were forced to work together with not a huge amount of time for competition between the two, maybe after things had died down abit a few episodes into the next season they would have revisited the subject of who was the prophesised vampire. If they'd tried to wrap that up in the episodes that they had left to write or film, it might have felt rushed, it's not really the type of thing they could wrap up in one episode (though they tried to answer several questions in one episode before, all with the answer "Jasmine did it").

Ghost Spike | March 11, 20:03 CET

Gossi: In fairness, some of this was dealt with in season 4 of Angel.

I can't think what you're referring to. Perhaps I'll see this all differently when I watch those seasons again.

Ghost Spike: We can't hold the writers to blame, we know that they were pretty much counting on getting a sixth season.

That's a good point. I don't think Angel would have signed away his part in the prophecy if the series had been continuing. More generally, the way that TV series are written, with story arcs often being started not knowing how they will end, tends to reduce the chance of satisfying resolutions.

tichtich | March 11, 20:19 CET

An afterthought...

Gossi: I think, really, the show was called Angel and it was David Boreanaz's show - if Spike had turned out to be 'the one' or some such, I could well see David and a lot of the fans going mad.

Didn't we just have a very long thread on whether the writers should do what the fans want? I can't remember if you contributed, but I would have put you on the "no" side of that argument. ;-)

tichtich | March 11, 20:29 CET

"Gossi: I think, really, the show was called Angel and it was David Boreanaz's show - if Spike had turned out to be 'the one' or some such, I could well see David and a lot of the fans going mad."

And Buffy The Vampire Slayer was Buffy's show and SMG's show but that didn't stop Joss and his team creating some of the richest characters ever created for television. The title of a show is surely not intended as a limitation on the development of its themes or its characters.
The best shows are always team efforts, just as any continuation of Spike's story would also involve the continuation and development of the stories of other characters.

I sort of get the feeling that you don't want a Spike movie Gossi but , look at it this way, if the Spike DVD gets made and is a success the next in the series may focus more on the characters * you* care for.

If it's enough of a success it may achieve the impossible and get a big screen project greenlit which is what DB has said it would take to tempt him back to the fold .

Maybe to get his Shanshu cos, though he's looking pretty good these days DB isn't getting any younger either :)

I see no possible prospect of a big BA reunion whether on DVD or big screen, but I'm OK with that, my interest now lies with Spike and Illyria and anyone else who survived the last battle .. with a big dollop of hope for Giles' return :)

debw | March 11, 20:42 CET

I'm all for a Spike project - I'm a huge Tim Minear fanboy (and one of the few who didn't try to talk him out of it last year). I also think Spike can be one of the most interesting characters in the Buffyverse - if he's handled correctly. Tim Minear? The king of emotional pain. There is some distance between what the creative folk and the fans envisage in Spike, I suspect, which is one of the reasons where fans ultimately shouldn't have the final say, to reiterate that point. Spike The Vampire Slayer: not interesting. Spike in pain? Interesting.

gossi | March 11, 21:22 CET

I've just been thinking that the movie is going to have to appeal to viewers who haven't seen the entire Buffyverse canon. That means the writers can't take anything for granted in terms of knowledge of characters and past events. It could be frustrating for those of us who want a story that ties in closely with what's gone before. It will have to tread a very fine line between satisfying hardcore fans like us and confusing those who've seen only a little of the Buffyverse, or none at all. This could be a bigger problem than Joss had with Serenity, where the prior canon was much less.

tichtich | March 11, 21:39 CET

Spike in pain? Interesting.

A couple of my friends gave me a rather odd look when I mentioned that my favourite Buffy episodes are the ones where she's in pain. Perhaps I need to be more careful about the way I express myself to non-fans.

tichtich | March 11, 21:44 CET

As a DVD project I don't think this would be marketed at an audience unfamilar with the Buffyverse . I think there is enough of a fan base to make a profit on this project without the need for large chunks of exposition.

debw | March 11, 21:46 CET

See Gossi that's were we have different opinions, for me Spike The Vampire Slayer does work. I don't always need to see my favorite character in pain. It's very clear to me that you don't see Spike as a champion or hero and that's alright but there are alot of fans who see him that way, me included. And i can't wait to see what they are gonna do with Spike this time around.

sethsky | March 11, 21:46 CET

From my perspective, Spike is the guy pushing the mail cart in Soul Purpose--no, not Angel, who has friends and support and women all love him. Spike burns in a painful death at the end of CHOSEN. He loves Dru and Buffy to distraction, yet they always appear to love Angel more. He fights for his soul and wins it, but apparently the destiny and all TPTB help goes to Angel, who got cursed with a soul and was sent to hell trying to destroy the world.

Moving on to the fang gang, Angel was suppose to wear the amulet and be the ghost stuck to W&H, but instead Spike is the one, and so we find Angel and his friend in their offices plotting how they should probably put him out of his misery. (if Angel had been in the same position, could you see the gang treating him as an inconvenience like they did SPike when Fred was trying to help?) What does Spike do? He helps these people.

It sucks to be Spike and as a fan--I would love to see something good happen to him for a change. The thing about Spike is that he is a survivor and doesn't brood and goes with the flow, but all this has left an impression...on me. Even on Joss shows, everyone catches a break every once in a while, but not Spike. For the love of heavens, pain is good and James does it like few others, but let us find out that Buffy did truly love him, or that the prophecy is his--or something, but bless the guy--give him (and me) something sweet for a change. ;)

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-03-11 19:55 ]

spikeylover | March 11, 21:53 CET

Gossi wrote
"I'm all for a Spike project - I'm a huge Tim Minear fanboy (and one of the few who didn't try to talk him out of it last year). " Gossi

This has me totally confused! Why on earth would Tim Minear fans try to talk him out of doing a Spike movie?
Surely writers sign up for projects because they want to do them and fans, whether of writers or actors should ( and thankfully usually do) have no part in those decisions.

I personally saw nothing but praise for Tim and joy that Joss seemed to be moving forwards with a continuation of the Buffyverse on the boards which I frequent .Some people had reservations about the content of any movie but I honestly don't remember seeing a single " Tim shouldn't be doing this" comment.

debw | March 11, 22:05 CET

I think Spike needs to find a new mission. He's had plenty in the past: cure Drusilla, kill Buffy, make Drusilla love him, get the chip removed, make Buffy love him, save Buffy, annoy Angel. But none of these apply any more. ("Make Buffy love him" and "save Buffy" could still apply in principle, but we know SMG isn't coming back.) So what now? Become the great hero and save the world? Pah! That's just not Spike (though he might do it in the course of pursuing his mission, like he saved the world in "Chosen" for the sake of Buffy). I'm sure Joss/Tim will come up with something far more original than that.

tichtich | March 11, 22:29 CET

...maybe "bring out the Fred from Illyria". Or is that too obvious?

tichtich | March 11, 22:36 CET

Bringing out Fred from Illyria would be interesting, if possible. (and that would be painful, because I do think Spike has a fondness for Illyria, too)

hmmm...Spike saved the world for sake of Buffy? I would say yes considering how the rest of the world treated him, but then he didn't even think she loved him. (Plus she wanted him run with her, and he wanted to finish it and wouldn't do it) Seems very unselfish...and heroic.

The thing about Spike is that in my mind, he is a great knight--hero, whatever, but because he wears that smart-ass costume of his, he comes across more anti-heroish. (I made up a word) What was he doing there with Gunn, Angel and Illyria at the end of NFA? He looked pretty heroic to me.

spikeylover | March 11, 22:53 CET

I'm with you Spikeylover...I do beleive Spike is a hero...I do think Buffy loved him and I do think he is the better man...even if we Spike fans rarely got any validation for our beleiefs.

If Joss is smart I hope he will not break the hearts of a very big part of his fandom. I am tired on Spike in pain...Good Lord...thats all he's ever had. I admit it makes him interesting but I think it can only go so far....give the guy some happiness already!!! As long as Spike doesn't get killed off, and has some chance for happiness....I will be happy.

kathylovesspike | March 11, 23:11 CET

hmmm...Spike saved the world for sake of Buffy? I would say yes considering how the rest of the world treated him, but then he didn't even think she loved him. (Plus she wanted him run with her, and he wanted to finish it and wouldn't do it) Seems very unselfish...and heroic.

Yes, that's exactly how I see it. But he didn't do it out of a sense of duty or to save the world (which would be Buffy's thing) or to redeem himself for his evil past (which would be Angel's thing). It was a pure act of love. That made a beautiful end to his story, and it's going to be very difficult for the writers to top that.

What was he doing there with Gunn, Angel and Illyria at the end of NFA? He looked pretty heroic to me.

I would say it was partly helping out his new friends, and partly the fun of fighting. I'm not saying that Spike isn't sometimes heroic, just that being heroic--fighting the good fight--isn't his mission.

tichtich | March 11, 23:24 CET

Hmmm I don't know.I think that in BtVS season 7 and AtS season 5 he was starting to get into the " hero" thing, even if he did have a tendancy to want to take the people he rescued off for some hooch and to listen to some Sex Pistols.

Note that when Angel asks who is in for a certain death mission to destroy The Black Thorn Spike's hand is the first one up.

He's a hero and frankly he deserves some friendship and some happiness and ,most of all, some respect. I'm sure that Joss and Tim will treat the character with respect but I'm hopeful for at least some friendship for Spike, because we've seen so much of him in pain that it would be great to see the flip side of the coin a little more

debw | March 11, 23:45 CET

In the alley in NFA, Spike is fighting for his life, and the life of his friends.

Spike is the kind of character who carries pain - his life didn't go well, he turned into a monster, and he fought to regain respect from somebody - anybody, arguably.

I do think he's a great character. At the end of the day, we all die, and we all go through incredible pain in our lives, and we depend on ourselves at the end of the day. We fight for ourselves, or for our friends. We are our own heros. Angel tried to have some kind of heroic campaign half the time, and that I actually detach from - I can relate to somebody who doesn't want to be a hero, doesn't want to be a champion but can make a difference.

gossi | March 11, 23:54 CET

Remember the Joss written AHITW? Angel has a moment when he thinks he should let thousands die so Fred can live, and Spike clearly lets him know that it isn't possible.

SPIKE FROM SHELLS: (to Angel) This is what she would have wanted. (thinks about it) It's what *I* want. I don't really like you. Suppose I never will. But this is important, what's happening here. Fred gave her life for it. The least I can do is give what's left of mine. The fight's comin', Angel. We both feel it... and it's gonna be a hell of a lot bigger than Illyria. Things are gonna get ugly. (shrugs and smiles) That's where I live.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Spike sought out being some sort of champion--we are just saying he is a hero and he deserves some happiness. Poor Wesley died, but he at least got to know that Fred loved him. Spike really hasn't had any kind of luxury like that. I think Buffy loved Spike, but Spike doesn't know that. I was shocked when Andrew actually gave the poor guy a hug. (I believe that was the first real hug anyone ever gave him on either show)

[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-03-11 22:14 ]

spikeylover | March 11, 23:55 CET

Like it or not, I'm afraid that the Buffyverse still has more suffering in store for Spike. And not just the standard Buffyverse quota--which God knows is high enough. He has 100 years of evil to pay for, and one or two selfless acts aren't going to even the karmic balance. Why should he have it easier than Angel, who's already had 100 years of suffering? If Spike got off so much easier than Angel it would imply that Angel's suffering was unnecessary, and that would undermine the whole ethos of AtS.

That's not to say that he can't find some friendship and respect, as Angel has done. Spike found them for a while, from Buffy and Fred. But, as with Angel, he probably won't have any long-lasting relationships.

I would say that Spike's biggest personality trait is being a romantic. So some sort of romance (maybe with Illyria) is on the cards. But it will be either unrequited or short-lived. So says my crystal ball.

tichtich | March 12, 00:26 CET

Crystal balls are good.

As long as Spike doesn't sleep with Buffy and then loose his soul again, it's all good.

gossi | March 12, 00:32 CET

"Why should he have it easier than Angel, who's already had 100 years of suffering? If Spike got off so much easier than Angel it would imply that Angel's suffering was unnecessary, and that would undermine the whole ethos of AtS."

Because they are very different vampires, Spike is *nothing* like Angel, Angel is duller than a table lamp and has very different colouring!

Seriously, Spike has now helped to save the world at least three times he's voluntarily got back his own soul,and a curse free one at that! He's been toasted and ghosted and he knows full well that he can't atone for his past. It's just that Angel broods about it and Spike is... well ,Spike! He doesn't give a p*ss about atonement he just gets on with what needs to be done .

He is a champion and a hero as is Angel

It's not a competition!

His story in no way detracts from Angel's they're just different!

debw | March 12, 00:46 CET

Seriously, Spike has now helped to save the world at least three times he's voluntarily got back his own soul,and a curse free one at that! He's been toasted and ghosted and he knows full well that he can't atone for his past. It's just that Angel broods about it and Spike is... well ,Spike! He doesn't give a p*ss about atonement he just gets on with what needs to be done .

I agree with this, and I would not find it very realistic for Spike to get really mopey like Angel and start spending all his time thinking about getting redemption. We've seen that story already with Angel, and if we're going to see a new Spike story I want it to be about something different. I'd like to see a movie either about Spike going through the required process to get the Shanshu (maybe there are some more steps that were never outlined in the prophecy), or simply getting the Shanshu and then having to deal with being human.

vampire dan | March 12, 01:17 CET

Because they are very different vampires

That's why they suffer a different sort of pain. Angel's is guilt. Spike's is unrequited love.

Of course, Joss will probably confound all our expectations, and a good thing too.

toasted and ghosted

Nice one!

tichtich | March 12, 01:22 CET

Spikeylover, I agree. In the episode "Shells" we see Spike finally reach actualization with his epiphany that fighting the good fight is "what I want" and not just because it's what someone else wanted. His motivations from that point on, in my opinion, were strickly selfless, even if he continued to attempt to conceal it behind a facade of cavalier cockiness.

I don't believe that Spike has to ultimately be in pain or less than heroic for the movie to be interesting or well received.

anindoorkitty | March 12, 01:43 CET

March 10 2006