March 30
2006
James Marsters - "I'm not getting any more British".
A new Q&A with Mr Marsters at the Wizard Magazine website. Spike, Smallville and Joss Whedon get discussed.
Simon
| Cast&Crew
| 10:35 CET
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108 comments total
| tags: spike, smallville, james marsters
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NickSeng | March 30, 11:21 CET
But it is sad that James basically feels that it won't happen because of Joss' attitude toward the character. I'm sure Joss would disagree with that assessment.
BTW, when did the counter on the 5 years start, because didn't Angel end just over 2 years ago? I guess he made that commitment during Buffy then? At any rate, as great as James looks and I figure will look for several years to come, short of shanshuing, I'm not sure it would work that convincingly.
Rogue Slayer | March 30, 11:54 CET
I will be heartbroken, as a matter of fact I already am.
I miss Spike terribly.
James is lovely and a talented actor and Brainiac has been fun but I really miss Spike.
Personally I have no problem with suspension of disbelief. We do it all the time for all sorts of reasons. Aging is a small thing.
I am getting discouraged but I haven't given up hope yet.
Xane | March 30, 12:19 CET
Ghost Spike | March 30, 12:42 CET
Well firstly we don't know when the interview was conducted. And I reckon Joss will say something when something concrete is known. I don't think he's one for talking about ongoing negotiations.
Back in May 2003 someone pretended to be him on the Bronze Beta and said Angel got renewed for a fifth season.
Joss reacted by saying:
Relevant Whedonesque thread.
Simon | March 30, 12:52 CET
We knew about the five year window, we know that Joss has spoken to James, we know that Joss perhaps wasn't as connected to Spike, at least initially, as he was to say Buffy, Angel, Willow, Giles or Xander.
So what? We also know that Joss is working on getting us a Spike movie and, that being the case, there is a story he wants to tell. I don't see that this interview has any real new information and, financial considerations aside, i still am very hopeful we will see the Spike movie go ahead.
By the way, this whole five year window thing? Don't let yourselves get too hung up on that. It's not like there is an official deadline or anything. James will make the choice on whether or not to do the movie based on many reasons (schedule, money, script, etc) but the five year time limit won't be one. If physically looking right for the role is really the deal clincher then for all we know that ship might have sailed. He might already think he has aged too much. He might have decided that a year ago. On the other hand, he might look at himself in another five years and still think he can pull off the immortal vamp.
The five year thing is just a guideline but i guarantee you that it isn't one that is set in stone.
Kaine | March 30, 14:12 CET
Berry | March 30, 15:07 CET
I'm with Xane--I miss Spike enormously. My first preference would be to have him in my home every week for a number of years, but, hey, I'll take whatever TPTB are willing to give. A movie. A DVD movie. Multitudinous movies--theatrical or DVD. Selected shorts. *Drifts away*
Sorry. Where was I? Well, I wouldn't want James to do something he didn't feel right about, but I hope, if all the other obstacles/bumps in the road get smoothed out, that he will enjoy going back to work more magic with a great character.
As for Joss' take on all this, I think (hope!!) you're right, Simon. Joss doesn't seem to be "one for talking about ongoing negotiations." Perhaps he feels it's a little premature to say much to James until negotiations (please, god, let there be negotiations!) are further along and he can give James something more substantial, like a firm timeline.
Ah well. I'm just keeping my fingers crossed. Just noticed there's a lot of thinkin' and hopin' goin' on in my yada yada here. Okay. Going to bed now. . . .
SangChaud | March 30, 15:16 CET
I'm just sad that he hasn't seemed to have heard from Joss at all.
In other news, Brainiac comes on tonight and he'll be in the final two episodes. YAY!!
spikeylover | March 30, 16:01 CET
SPIKE: Were you ... were you just smelling my shorts?
SangChaud: (scoffs) No. Well, yeah, all right, I did. It's a ... predator thing, nothin' wrong with it. Just ... know your enemy's scent, whet the appetite for a hunt.
(SangChaud sniffs the shorts again)
SangChaud: Ah, that's the stuff! Vampire musk, it's bitter and aggravating!
(SangChaud presses the shorts against her face and makes angry growling noises. Spike snatches the shorts away, tosses them aside, then grabs SangChaud by the shirt.)
[ edited by MissKittysMom on 2006-03-30 16:00 ]
MissKittysMom | March 30, 16:19 CET
That said, I do find it interesting how that 5 year window seems to be starting further and further into the past. If this interview is recent it would have started the beginning of the last season of BtVS, if it is as old as I think it is, it started at the end of S6 of BtVS. I think JM is feeling like these last 2 years that he has not been playing Spike have been longer than they have. I can understand that, it feels like a long time to me too.
newcj | March 30, 16:38 CET
tichtich | March 30, 16:41 CET
You are correct that the five years time span has been stated on many an occasion, spikeylover, and I don't doubt for a second that he has a timeframe in mind. However, it is the very fact that he keeps using the exact same estimate that makes me assume that it is just a number to state in an interview, rather than anything definate. I'm certain that he is being honest when he says that he feels that there will come a time when he can no longer realistically play the role of Spike and that he believes that time is not long in coming. I just don't think that "five years", or any arbitrary number of years for that matter, needs to be taken to heart.
Sooner or later, James will decide that Spike's time has passed. That might be after four years, then again it might be after six. There is simply no way that anyone can predict that in a specific number of years they will feel a certain way. It's like me saying that in five years from now i will no longer be able to get on a skateboard. Maybe i will decide to stop actively doing that next year, maybe ten years from now. The fact is that i will only know for certain when that day arrives. Until then i'm just throwing out numbers.
Kaine | March 30, 16:42 CET
I hope you're right, newcj, about this being an older interview. I really miss Spike, I'd be willing to suspend belief about James and his ability to portray Spike again, and I will still hope that things are moving forward on the Spike movie. But I will watch Smallville tonight and enjoy James in this role (for now).
Julchek | March 30, 16:44 CET
I can understand James frustration, and the fact that he needs to immerse himself in the work he is currently doing, so I'm glad to see he has such passion for the role of Brainiac. But I am just not as taken by this role, although I think James is doing a fantastic job with it. There just isn't that spark or that draw that makes me want to 'love' Brainiac. Enjoy the hell out of him, yes, but love... well uhhhh, I guess sex with robots IS more common than we think... So maybe.
Anyway, I still have hope. If the FOX suits realize the money they could make from a Spike movie, or several more Verse films, I think there will be a chance we see Spike again.
Until then I will pour myself into watching Brainiac or anything else James wants to do. The man has just captured all of me and I don't want it to end. Just want as much of him as I can get on my TV and in movies for many, MANY more years to come.
Come on James, you are gorgeous... aging just makes you look even sexier!
[ edited for punctuation by Caroline on 2006-03-30 15:41 ]
kathylovesspike | March 30, 16:56 CET
Caroline | March 30, 17:42 CET
zeitgeist | March 30, 17:45 CET
Koos | March 30, 17:46 CET
(waits for newcj to distill this post to "Spike grabbed me... I loved... him... his... part... Spike... Hard... Spike... wow... hard... really good")
zeitgeist | March 30, 17:52 CET
My guess is that this mostly has to do with talk of the Spike movie and popularity of the character among so many. My thought is that if you don't like Spike, don't watch the movie. (Shrugs)
[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-03-30 16:25 ]
spikeylover | March 30, 18:03 CET
Naughty, what would your Significant Others think ? ;-)
Each to their own of course but i've always thought Spike is one of the best characters in BtVS. I liked him when he was bad bad, then when he was good bad, then bad good and finally good good (well, ish ;). Second to Wesley, I think he has the most interesting arc of any secondary character in the Buffyverse.
And though I loved his sacrifice in Chosen, I think it was perhaps a little bit passive for the truest brawler of the bunch. NFA was, for me, a better end for a warrior poet (even though no-matter what happens re: movies, he and Illyria definitely survived. In my head ;).
Saje | March 30, 18:21 CET
Could we have some enforcement of proper capitalization too? For weeks I've seen several posters who have gotten in the habit of not capitalizing the pronoun "I" as they should.
Back on topic, I love the character Spike. He was the bait that got me hooked on the show. It would make me immensely happy so see him again in a movie. However, if it doesn't happen, in my mind he survived NFA and is out there somewhere fighting the good fight.
killinj | March 30, 18:26 CET
Saje - I only have eyes for my Bad Miss Regent. However, clearly your post displays your fantasy and you are saying "Spike... the best... bad bad... good... bad... good good... ish... second... Wesley... the most... I loved... warrior poet... and... head".
killinj - the post-NFA Angel comics would seem to agree with your assessment :)
zeitgeist | March 30, 18:27 CET
Saje | March 30, 18:31 CET
I can understand that there are fans who do not care for Spike. Fine, but please don't make it a crime for those of us who do like the character to hope for more of his story. If you don't want to see more of Spike...then don't!
I for one don't really want to see Spike 'go out in a blaze of glory'! He did that already. I just want to see my favorite character again. I want to leave his story with him still standing, still out there or shanshued and I hope with some chance of happiness.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I realize that, but there are times that I get the feeling that Spike's motives or hero status are always questioned everytime the Spike movie comes up?
Caroline...sorry about my poor punctuation, spelling or sentence structure. Please feel free to correct me!
kathylovesspike | March 30, 18:40 CET
ETA:
kathylovesspike - Just try to capitalize and punctuate, sentence structure is only an issue when its unclear and you are rarely unclear :)
zeitgeist | March 30, 18:44 CET
spikeylover | March 30, 18:48 CET
zeitgeist | March 30, 18:53 CET
eddy | March 30, 19:05 CET
zeitgeist | March 30, 19:10 CET
Saje, (What are you doing to me! I thought we were friends in a, we don't know each other at all but you always seemed like a nice person kind of way.) As much as I would be flattered if Zeitgeist were saying that, I have no doubt that he would never ever think of such a thing...nor would I ever want barest_smidgen to think that he would ever think of such a thing. (New Jersey is a small state and that balenciaga handbag full of bricks could have a pretty wide range.) Hey there Smidge. You know Zeit would never think of such a thing, right Smidg?
That said...
"Spike grabbed me... I loved... him... his... part... Spike... Hard... Spike... wow... hard... really good"
...Is it getting hot in here?
Where was I? Oh yeah, put my vote in for more Spike in a format that includes JM. Add me to the list for more of an explanation of what Koos meant as well, because I didn't really get the whole connection between Spike and disrespect for other characters...except that Spike never had much respect for most other characters, but that was part of his charm. (No, I don't think that is what Koos meant either.)
It is hot in here.
[ edited by newcj on 2006-03-30 17:14 ]
newcj | March 30, 19:13 CET
zeitgeist is correct, I suspect. We also don't know when it started being discussed - it might have been mentioned with James before he moved to Angel.
gossi | March 30, 19:14 CET
Did he perhaps mean that he felt that Spike's involvement in the storyline of all those seasons, perhaps took away from the other characters screen time?
kathylovesspike | March 30, 19:18 CET
Ooooh, that would include me. I pretty much never capitalise "i" unless it happens to be at the start of the sentence. I guess I'm one of those who tries to make sure he is using the correct spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc as much as is possible but doesn't obsess about every little rule of the english language. As long as the posts I make look neat and tidy and I've made them as legible to everyone else here as possible then that is good enough for me. The whole "I" instead of "i" thing seems to me to be a minor detail that won't make the slightest bit of difference to anyone else here as far as understanding what I'm saying goes and will eventually lead to a much earlier expiration of my shift key. ;)
Actually, all kidding aside it is one of those rules that i ... sorry ... I am very slack on and I should know better at my age. I will have to watch out for that in the future. Poor old shift key, your workload just increased dramatically.
[ edited by zeitgeist to capitalize some I's just to be a jerk on 2006-03-30 17:27 ]
Edited a second time to change one "i" back for the sake of saving a poor attempt at humour. ;p
[ edited by Primeval on 2006-03-30 17:42 ]
Kaine | March 30, 19:21 CET
Madcap23 | March 30, 19:23 CET
Could we have some enforcement of proper capitalization too? For weeks I've seen several posters who have gotten in the habit of not capitalizing the pronoun "I" as they should.
killinj, off topic, but I try to enforce the rule as much as I can without disturbing the natural flow of discussions too much. Sometimes I edit without saying anything, sometimes I do say something. And I obviously miss a whole lot of them too.
Caroline | March 30, 19:26 CET
I had to re-read it a couple of times myself, but yeah the way I take it is that basically Spike got too much attention and the other characters suffered.
To be honest, it's hard for me to judge that, since Spike was the primary reason I watched the show. I got hooked with School Hard and eventually watched the stuff before that, but it was Spike that brought me in. And it was Spike that held me. As evidenced by the fact that for the past few years I didn't actually remember a lot from season 3 except for Lovers Walk(but now hubby has forced fed it to me again, and I've found lots of wonderful epis!)
But when hubby was (gleefully) presenting Buffy to me, he had to preface every episode with: Lots-o-Spike or Little bit-but what is there is gold. I wanted to be prepared for the level of Spike-age.
And yes, especially after season 5, Spike was in it a lot. Which was GREAT for me! But I guess I can see that if you were with the show from day one, you might feel this guy was getting a bit too much airtime, especially if you didn't fall for him as hard as I(and many others) did. Maybe one of your favs was getting less time to make way for Spike. I know I felt that in season 7, with the SiTs; but with Spike I just felt he was part of the show, not an interloper. So I felt it was a nice flow, not a detriment to Willow or Xander or whatever.
That said, I can understand that if it were say, Dawn, or someone I didn't really like, and she started playing a much larger part in the show, I would be miffed too. So I can sympathize. But from my standpoint of Spike-love(admittedly a biased one!) I just didn't feel it.
Rogue Slayer | March 30, 19:27 CET
[ edited by zeitgeist [fix your n key you arse] on 2006-03-30 21:09 ]
zeitgeist | March 30, 19:30 CET
I don't want him to be burned. We must accept the Buffyverse, as we know it, it's over. It's the natural law, someday it must happen.
But now, what I really want is Faith + Illyria! It's their time now. They need to be developed more than they are. Or a Fray miniseries/series. Or even a "Tales Of" miniseries or specials.
I'm sorry to say this, but the buffyverse characters (some) are done. And I prefer them to stay that way. They said goodbye while they were on top. I don't want to risk that.
[ edited by Angel TheVampire on 2006-03-30 17:36 ]
Angel TheVampire | March 30, 19:35 CET
gossi | March 30, 19:38 CET
(point taken :) --Zeitgeist)
Kaine | March 30, 19:48 CET
RavenU | March 30, 19:54 CET
Dirk | March 30, 19:55 CET
Simon | March 30, 20:01 CET
Since Joss is saying he has a story to tell about Spike, I am happy to take that at face value. Spike always seemed to me to be just starting out on his own journey after all the years of tagging along with Drucilla, Buffy or Angel and therefore has a long way to go. Joss is smarter than I am so I'll be happy to come along for the ride.
newcj | March 30, 20:05 CET
newcj, hey, I'm just calling it like I see it. zeitgeist's message couldn't have been plainer (unless I'd made more stuff up). However, there's a simple and obvious solution based on the logic of deterrence. Simply wrap high explosives around your head. What brick wielder would dare attack then, hmm ?
Cool, we have, like, Special Forces Editors. And just like the Special Forces they make me feel safer and slightly more afraid at the same time ;-). Did I say that ? Or was it the SFE ? We may never know. Well, I will ... Or will I ? Muhahahaha. Either way, zeitgeist is awesome!
Saje | March 30, 20:16 CET
Reality wise, Tim has Drive upcoming as potentially a series, which I suspect would knock him out of the project, not to mention James auditioning for pilots..
If it's announced, great, I'll lap it up. Either way, zeitgeist is awesome!
gossi | March 30, 20:17 CET
Angel TheVampire, thats what I'm talking about. I finally got my hands on a copy of Fray and it is delicious. Why did JW never do a follow up Melaka story other than "Tales of the.." which I am now reading. I miss Buffyverse so much!
[ edited by zeitgeist to add div for quote on 2006-03-30 18:53 ]
eddy | March 30, 20:47 CET
Wait a minute... Did I ... ? Hmm. Note to self: Stay off booze at lunchtime.
Saje | March 30, 21:01 CET
zeitgeist | March 30, 21:22 CET
zeitgeist | March 30, 19:22 CET "
...as would barest_smidgen. Thanks for leaving me out of it zeitgeist. ;-)
I've got to get around to reading Fray...
newcj | March 30, 21:37 CET
Meanwhile, I'm surprise that James Marsters is only 43!! He still looks like he's in his late 20's to me. When I've seen him in Smallville I've been thinking that he looks a bit young to be college professor that Brainiac is posing as. I definitely think he could still pull off playing a 20-something year old Spike.
Matt_Fabb | March 30, 22:04 CET
Thank you, Zeitgeist, that is exactly what I meant. Except that it also held true for Anya and Tara. It was not meant as bashing Spike. It was meant in the way other characters were treated.
Mind you, I am very capable of bashing Spike :eyeroll: I agree that Spike went out as hero . . . and what about the other characters? Didn't they count anymore? Buffy, for example, ended up as selfcentric dumb bitch with a superiority complex. Why couldn't the title character end up as the hero (for once)?
And lets see the history between Spike with the other men and their arclines. S5 Riley. S6 Xander. S7 Giles, Wood and Angel. They all have something against him, and if not then they don't have an arcline at all. Xander didn't have anything against Spike anymore in S7 and thus he was shoved into the background. Giles got squat in S7 except for his backstabbing Spike.
This boggles since wouldn't that be the fault of the writers if you actually felt it was true?
That depends, after S7 I felt it was meant this way. In general I can't really say that it's good or bad writing, except when it wasn't meant to be this way. All I can say is that I don't like it.
To make it more clear, I liked Spike in Angel S5 (my favorite character after Illyria) again because there the other characters were treated with a basic level of respect.
Koos | March 31, 00:19 CET
Like Joss, I believe Spike's journey didn't end with NFA, so I hope we get a Spike movie soon, so that JM can continue to apply his special brand of magic to one of the greatest Jossverse characters ever created.
MissKittysMom said:
I thought Spike always went commando. *scratches head* ;)
anindoorkitty | March 31, 00:40 CET
(to jog your memory,it was in a scene in BTVS with Harmony where he was sitting and reading a paper in his crypt while she annoyed him. )
Berry | March 31, 01:05 CET
We are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, right? I don't recognise this character from the show I watched for seven seasons.
alien lanes | March 31, 01:09 CET
We are talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer, right? I don't recognise this character from the show I watched for seven seasons.
Right there with ya, dashboard. I thought Buffy went out quite the hero.
syd | March 31, 01:49 CET
I think Spike only goes commando in fanfic! :~D
Rogue Slayer | March 31, 02:12 CET
"No,James goes commando. Spike wore boxers. I know because Fox sold them on e-bay. :D
(to jog your memory,it was in a scene in BTVS with Harmony where he was sitting and reading a paper in his crypt while she annoyed him. )
Berry | March 30, 23:05 CET "
I thought he had jeans on in that scene. Doesn't he have his feet up on the table? You'd see his bare legs if he was in underwear. I'll have to go back and watch again.
Oh the sacrifices I make...
newcj | March 31, 02:30 CET
Koos | March 31, 02:54 CET
Splitter!Basher!No, Koos, I jest. I also disagree. I might have some sympathy for your position if the show had ended at Empty Places, but I believe there were an additional 3 episodes after that which demonstrated that Buffy recognized and mollified her harder and solitary side.
Either way, zeitgeist is awesome!
SoddingNancyTribe | March 31, 03:22 CET
alien lanes | March 31, 03:32 CET
Anyway, thanks for the chuckles. I'm saving that for the grandkids, should any come along. Show 'em granny was *not* without her wild side, loving a vamp & all. . . .
Sorry. Maybe a little OT. But thanks, MissKittysMom.
And yes, zeitgeist is awesome!
SangChaud | March 31, 03:50 CET
I suppose I should say something about the thread topic, which is Spike, but words sorta fail me at this juncture. I will say that the most interesting part of the interview for me is one that nobody has commented on - James says that "Joss never really found himself in Spike. Spike was always the other guy." I've heard/read similar comments in the past, but I found that quite insightful and arresting.
SoddingNancyTribe | March 31, 03:55 CET
ETA: I, too, for some reason went to "superiority complex" and forgot "dumb bitch". Lovely, insightful, and thoughtful interpretation, that.
[ edited by syd on 2006-03-31 02:05 ]
syd | March 31, 04:01 CET
seasonsmoments when I felt she was a bitch. But to put them together just sounds a lot harsher than I would mean. Right now.A while ago, though, I had a lot of Buffy hate. But I've been able to work through that and realize my Spike love was tainting my view of Buffy, and were I her, I might make a lot of the same choices she made.
Rogue Slayer | March 31, 04:02 CET
Bitch? Sure, she had her moments, like all of the other characters.
What I really don't get is the hate, though. Seasons Two through Four? Spike is trying to kill her. Season Five? His character/motives/personality is changing (or wavering) so much that it's hard for anyone to know what to make of him, and yet she still has many moments of tenderness toward him. Season Six? She's unwillingly back from the dead and therefore feels less than alive and full of self-loathing. I know plenty of people who've treated those close to them far worse for far lesser reasons, and yet I've never felt cause to hate them. Season Seven? For most of the season she's his most ardent champion. I just don't get the hate.
SoddingNancyTribe | March 31, 04:32 CET
Still, I managed to get over it, was well on my way to Buffy loving again until
"Does it have to mean something?" after she forces Spike to reveal his feelings after the night in the empty house. Either she is deliberately cruel or just being stupid.
Then the Angel smooching/basking put it over the top. Immortal dating the next year didn't help either. Don't get me wrong. I want to love Buffy, its just hard.
Not trying to start anything, I know all this has been rehashed over and over, just trying to explain.
Xane | March 31, 04:46 CET
And, perhaps I've unwittingly opened
PanteraPandora's Box, but let's not get too heated about the subject.SoddingNancyTribe | March 31, 05:03 CET
Lioness | March 31, 05:16 CET
zeitgeist | March 31, 05:20 CET
On the other hand, I can be quite a Californian in t-shirt, shorts, and sandals, driving a convertible on the freeways, having lots of outdoor time, and a broader view of life's possibilities than before. So, the answer is "yes." :). And that's quite enough about me.
zg, you were supposed to say "Pandora's Box," so that I could reply, "Please don't correct me. It sickens me" . . . ;)
SoddingNancyTribe | March 31, 06:37 CET
annieb | March 31, 06:44 CET
SNT I also noticed the comment about Joss notrelating to Spike and had the same thought you did. I also think one of the reasons that Spike causes so much controversy is that he is a male character that has many experiences that women can deeply relate to yet can be such a jerk that many men (and women) cannot understand why so many women are so emotionally invested in him.
Koos: Buffy did go out a hero and she was hardly dumb. (In S7 she talked way too much for my tastes, in fact ;-) ) She was the one who came up with the radical concept of sharing her power and then set the ball in motion. She was the leader and the last one to leave the hellmouth. I know there are tose that say she was just trying to get out from under her responsibilities, but I don't think that gives her nearly enough credit. King George III is quoted as saying that if the colonies win the war and George Washington returns to his farm "he will be the greatest man in the world." When one is used to power, willingly handing it to someone else is extremely difficult and unusual...even when one considers it a burden on some level.
What I found interesting though was that you apparently view all the characters through their relationship to Spike, or at least that is what it sounded like you were saying.
"And lets see the history between Spike with the other men and their arclines. S5 Riley. S6 Xander. S7 Giles, Wood and Angel. They all have something against him, and if not then they don't have an arcline at all. Xander didn't have anything against Spike anymore in S7 and thus he was shoved into the background. Giles got squat in S7 except for his backstabbing Spike."
They all had good reasons to dislike him, including Xander in S7. Spike though was used as a catalyst to move the story along or to reveal what was actually going on with another character. For instance, Riley's problems in S5 were not related to Spike. They became more clear and focused when the two confronted each other. It is always about Buffy's journey, Spike was one of many tools used to tell that story.
Xane: I agree it has been rehashed. I've read the view of events you explained before too. I disagree with them. I love Spike as a character and there was once or twice when I truly wanted to slap Buffy, and pretty much every other character at one time or another, but I can understand Buffy's actions and they often made a lot of sense from her point of view.
I won't hit everything, but as an example I wanted to point out that IMO Buffy did not hit Spike on Riley's say so before she had seen any evidence. She hit him because he had been talking about her to Riley in very unflattering terms and as though she was a trophy he had won ("She's not your bint anymore....She always had a thing for me even when she was shagging you.") The implied relationship that his comment of "You don't have to defend me, love." after everything else he had been saying was enough to make her hit him. It had nothing to do with whether he was guilty of Riley's accusations.
And now the important stuff. I've thought about it and though I understand the varied opinions about everything else, I will not accept any debate about the fact that Spike did NOT wear underwear. ;-)
[ edited by newcj on 2006-03-31 05:42 ]
newcj | March 31, 07:41 CET
Yeah, but, dude, it's a British car! ;-)
billz | March 31, 10:29 CET
And, see, this gives me a chance to point out that yesterday I had some Twiglets and a packet of Maltesers without being totally off-topic :) (and it supports my earlier assertion of my becoming more British)
Crap, I'll get that right next time ;P ETA: Er, Mr. Furious, sir.
[ edited by zeitgeist on 2006-03-31 16:58 ]
zeitgeist | March 31, 17:30 CET
It was constantly suggested throughout the show that sooner or later Buffy was going to end up like all the other slayers before her. Cold and alone. Forced to put the mission first, even at the expense of all those around her. Buffy was always different to the other slayers because she was in a situation that meant she could have a family and friends around her but that did not necessarily mean that her personality would not eventually harden. I feel that was inevitable given what she had to do every single day.
My point being that I am not going to argue for one second with any of you that Buffy was more than capable of being a bitch but what I will argue is that I never expected her to become anything different. It was always on the cards that the slayer side of who she was would eventually become more prominent, no matter how much she might have tried to deny it. She became exactly what she was meant to be. I don't think that she should be condemned for that because it was in trying to be the best she could and save as many lives as possible that she eventually sacrificed at least some of the humanity we had seen in the early seasons.
I guess it just bugs me a little when people say that they didn't like Buffy for reason X or example Y when the truth was that she became no different than any other slayer had become. Look at how Nikki Wood viewed her own child as secondary to the mission. Sure, she has done some questionable things and made some hard choices but given her life I am certainly not going to look down on her because of that. You want to try being a slayer for a few years and see how well you start to deal with your relationships. I'll guarantee you that if you were in situations every single day that involved fighting and killing or making world changing decisions that could effect the lives of every single being on the planet then you would appreciate Buffy's position and hardened personality a lot more.
Edit: Oh yeah, and Buffy was NEVER dumb ... except when it came to speaking French but then I failed my French GCSE massively so who am I to talk? Je Stink! ;)
[ edited by Primeval on 2006-03-31 15:57 ]
Kaine | March 31, 17:42 CET
So I wouldn't say she became the same as every other Slayer and I certainly wouldn't call her a dumb bitch. I'd say she saw the role that had been created for her (controlled by the Watcher's Council, usually dead by 25 and above all destined to be alone) and, with a little help from her friends, she transcended it to create her own role on her own terms.
Also, I am so far into the Marmite Hater's camp i'm actually standing on the other side shouting 'Come on you wusses, if you really hated it you'd be back here throwing twiglets on the bonfire'. Not a huge cricket fan either but then that was always more an English thing (gotta respect a game that can last 5 days and end up a draw though ;). Plus, I drive a French car (French designed anyway, the steering wheel's on the right side - in both senses of the word ;).
Maybe I should start holding my passport with tongs in case it bursts into flames on contact.
(though I do like Tea, Maltesers, Digestives, Football - with feet, the changing of the seasons, burning effigies of historical 'terrorists', queues, a nice sit down, a decent pint of beer - not ice cold, talking about the weather and playing with a straight bat even if one's on a sticky wicket so I guess I am a Brit after all ;-)
Saje | March 31, 18:40 CET
ETA - since I would have to reprimand myself for not being at all on topic... I think that while Buffy made some strange and confounding choices and was often quite stubborn, if you try seriously putting yourself in her shoes re: coming back from the dead and other things you'll quickly see that 'dumb bitch' is an incredible oversimplification and just not accurate. Oh, and offtopic again for a sec, yesterday was my first experience of Twiglets, which I think would be good with a pint of the black stuff (this is someone's chance to say 'You can't drink a pint of Bovril').
zeitgeist | March 31, 18:48 CET
I just don't think it's fair to ignore what she was. At the end of the day she was a killer. Dracula made a very good point that, no matter what term you might choose to use for what she did, you can't get away from the fact her job was to kill.
In real life it's very common to find that people in high pressure careers, especially those that require the person to be involved in a lot of violent activity, find it almost impossible to live a normal, healthy social life. They can have the best family and the closest friends in the world but eventually they will start to distance themselves, no longer able to really connect to those closest to them. The job simply changes them and makes them harder.
Same goes for a slayer, but times about a billion. This is a person who is expected to hunt, fight and kill every single day of their (expected to be very short) lives. I think it would be almost impossible to live that kind of life and still be able to maintain a total grip on your humanity, no matter how many Scoobies you had around you. I think Buffy did fantastically well in keeping hold of as much of her everyday self as she did. I would imagine that many others in her situation would have turned out much worse than what we saw Buffy become.
And another definate Marmite hater, right here!
Kaine | March 31, 18:58 CET
exoticmushroom | March 31, 19:17 CET
Lioness | March 31, 03:16 CET
So, the answer is "yes." :). And that's quite enough about me.
SoddingNancyTribe | March 31, 04:37 CET "
Not to get too philisophical or anything, but I have found that often when people live in another place that is very different than where they were raised, their identity in relation to their upbringing becomes more crystalized. They have a better view of how they are part of their home culture as well as a clearer picture of what makes them different from what they were raised to be or what the folks at home have become.
On one hand the act of being so immersed in another culture makes you start to see what defines your own, both for good and for bad. On the other hand, being the outsider gives a certain amount of freedom to take what you like from the new culture while hanging on to things that feel comfortable from the one you were raised with.
An Asian guy I went out with when I was very young, used to always exclaim to other Asian friends, "She is so American!" and they would nod politely. It drove me crazy at first, even though he always had a big smile on his face when he said it. I just could not understand what he was talking about. What is being American? There are so many versions of us how can any of us be "so American." By the time we called it quits many years later, I understood what he was talking about, and I have always had a better idea of the ways in which I am, "so American" while being so very different from many segments of American society.
That said, there were some things in the UK that I really enjoyed for the 2 weeks I was over there...cider comes to mind. I made it a point to taste the local cider everywhere we went...purely to get a feel for the cultural differences of course.
BTW, did anyone notice in, I believe it was Passions, when Angel's demon guide guy(whose name just won't come to me) is raiding Gile's frig and says his snarky comment about how you are never going to get the good stuff raiding an Englishman's frig, he pulls out a bottle of hard cider? It is a brand made in Vermont rather than England but for some reason it still makes me smile.
So...uh...with all that in mind, I'll bet JM is getting more British since he does visit and enjoy visiting the UK so much. It may be so little that it is almost immeasureable, but it is almost certainly there.
Off-topic? We're not off topic.
[ edited by newcj on 2006-03-31 17:24 ]
newcj | March 31, 19:20 CET
Referring to someone, female or male, rightly or wrongly, as "dumb" is one thing. Referring to someone, a female in particular, as a "bitch" is, at best, very questionable. I personally find it offensive. Referring to someone, specifically a female, as a "dumb bitch" is something else entirely and carries with it very different connotations (even if it is not intended). I believe Joss Whedon tried to impart an important message with this show and I'm not convinced it was that Buffy or anyone else was a dumb bitch.
I am probably crossing a line here for which I do apologise... I will definitely shut up now.
alien lanes | March 31, 19:36 CET
"Dumb bitch", however, crosses the line to an insult that is neither fair nor accurate, given what we saw of her over seven seasons. Not a description of the girl I knew at all.
Kaine | March 31, 20:01 CET
My point is, I don't think this insult was any more accurate than those I mentioned. The author was probably trying for a specific feel to the insult, though. And I disagree completely with that dismissive and wholly inaccurate assessment of Buffy, even though I liked her least of all the Scoobs.
Willowy | March 31, 20:10 CET
zeitgeist, pick one from all my babies ? ;) It varies but after being back up in the auld country last week i've a taste for McEwan's 80 shilling which is pretty smoky and rich and way too easy to drink (though quite hard to find on tap in England) or maybe Caledonian 80 which isn't smoky or that rich but may be even easier downed). Flowers and Deuchars both do a nice IPA and then there's old stand-bys like Newcastle Brown or Tetley's (well, you did ask ;). Jeez, i'm smacking me lips in anticipation. TFI Friday ;).
newcj, I think that's absolutely true. As a transplanted Scot who's lived in England since he was a youngster, I probably observe customs that I might not bother with if I actually lived in Scotland and feel like I have a fairly clear view of Scottishness and my place in it (I think you tend to know your history a bit better when you're more likely to be challenged on it, however good naturedly).
The flip side is that I also get to look at England and the English as a sort of outsider (my accent's still Scottish and my attempts at faking an English one always good for a laugh though I obviously don't use Scots slang around people that, at best, wouldn't understand me and at worst might misunderstand me).
Over the last few years the English have been having a bit of an identity crisis, wondering what it is to be English in today's multi-cultural world, especially when you have neighbours that have such easily identifiable separate cultures. Whenever my sassanach mates talk about this stuff I just laugh because, to me, Englishness is as plain as day and stands out about as much. Englishness is (at least slightly stereotypically) loving queues but being undecided whether to say something if someone jumps ahead because that would be 'making a fuss'. Pretty much every other national characteristic is some variation on this delicate balancing act between an innate sense of fair-play and social embarrassment. Gross simplification ? Well, yeah but I reckon that it's a useful short-hand and contains at least a grain of truth ;).
(cider's a bit sweet for me, even the dry one's, plus as a kid I had a bad experience with over-indulgence - like there's a good experience with over-indulgence ;) - and so tend to steer clear)
Hell, that's quite a screed. Maybe just read every other word or something, it'll probably make as much sense ;)
Saje | March 31, 20:22 CET
It just occured to me, and seemed interesting considering the character.
Saje, it is interesting to see how the whole "balancing act between an innate sense of fair-play and social embarrassment." thing plays out in American culture as well. We do, after all have a strong English foundation in our culture with heavy layers of many other cultures (especially Scottish in some areas, btw) either on top or side by side. It usually looks as though the battle you describe does not exist with most Americans and with some it truly doesn't. With others however, it is very strong, but often consciously overcome. That dicotomy alone can create an interesting tension in the culture.
What you describe about the English fear of loss of identity in the expanding multi-cultural nature of their country is what Americans have also felt for a couple hundred years. The funny thing is that England, like the USA, has always been multi-cultural no matter how each tried to deny it. Whether it was the Celts, the Romans, the Norse the Anglo-Saxons and the Normans of earlier periods or people from all parts of the former Empire later on,what became uniquely English has always come out of a combination of cultures. That is one reason the English language is such a mess, as well as being so very interesting.
newcj | March 31, 21:10 CET
Maybe Spike just developed into a character that eclipsed what Joss had originally intended him to be. Not only that, but I think Spike's popularity grew to the point where so many fans began to see the shows through his eyes...through his story. I know I did.
I liked Buffy. I liked all the other characters. But I LOVED Spike, regardless of whether I was 'supposed' to or not. He just captured my heart. He made me want to watch the show and kept me tuning in every week. As far as Season 3 went...I have to admit that it was a struggle for me to watch since Spike was hardly in it.
I felt all Spike's pain, all his happiness, all his frustration, and I suppose that I started seeing all the other characters for the way they related to him. It's not that I didn't care about the other's stories....I just cared more about what was going to happen to Spike. His story was just MORE interesting and inspiring, and I was emotionally invested in it.
I can understand that we all have our favorites, and we all see the shows though our favorite's eyes in some ways. Maybe Joss had his favorites too, and perhaps we were supposed to become emotionally tied to them, but for me the focus never wavered from Spike.
Hopefully Joss does feel that there is more to tell for him. If not...well then, that's the way it has to be. If he makes films about some of the other characters I will probably watch, but honestly...I won't CARE as much about them.
If I can just be sure that Spike is still out there, still strong, still kicking ass and taking names, and that he has at least a chance for happiness...then I can let the story rest.
After that I hope that James will find another role that will capture our hearts, maybe not as much as Spike did, but one that can still inspires us and that keeps James on my TV or in films for many years to come.
kathylovesspike | March 31, 21:17 CET
zeitgeist | March 31, 21:26 CET
annieb | March 31, 21:55 CET
It is entirely possibly and likely that Spike is so loved (and hated) because HE, more even than Buffy much of the time, is the most feminist character in the piece.
Think about it.....
Miss Edith | March 31, 22:09 CET
sethsky | March 31, 22:17 CET
So feminist that when he becomes corporeal the first thing he does is have sex with Harmony?
Simon | March 31, 22:23 CET
But Harmony wasn't a woman....she was Harmony! :~P
On the feminism thing...that's tough. I mean, you have 'girl power' and 'feminism' and all kinds of thoughts on women in society. Going on the idea that feminism is the movement to bring equality...I'm not sure I agree that the show was feminist in nature. If anything, it was attempting to elevate women above men in some aspects. A group of women are the strongest humans in that world, they have the responsibility of standing between evil and the rest of the world-that's not equal. Unless you think that it counterbalances the other things men have.
To me, in actuality, Buffy isn't a show about equality. It's a show about girl power. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Rogue Slayer | March 31, 22:52 CET
Why do I call that "feminist" rather than just the description of how a good person should be, male or female? Mostly because women are (unfortunately) still encouraged to subvert their own desires to those of others -- often to their own detriment, to hide their intelligence around men and sometimes around other women, and to generally be submissive.
I think Spike could be both a "man's man" but also a woman's woman. He was in many ways more "feminine" than "masculine." Just compare him to Angel. Think about Joss' comment that in Ats5 they'd "finally found the right girl for Angel."
Miss Edith | March 31, 23:15 CET
So maybe Joss (and this is hardly uncommon among writers) doesn't feel that sureness of his place in the world and so finds it harder to relate to Spike ? Also, JM has said several times something to the effect that Spike is all heart and balls whereas Joss (from what little I know of him) seems to be more a head person, going over things many times until it makes sense or feels right (possibly one reason why his dialogue is so fabulous).
newcj that's interesting because I must admit most Brits idea of Americans is probably that they're totally unafraid to speak up when they see something they don't approve of (in fact, lack of 'social fear' strikes me as one of the defining characteristics of Americans but then, as with the English, there are, i'm sure, all kinds of regional variations among your attitudes and most of my impressions come from books and TV anyway, so what do I know ;).
As you say, we're all mongrels ;) but I think the English worry that others (especially their neighbours the Scots, Irish and Welsh) appear to have more genetic integrity because there are identifiable external characteristics from each of those countries (e.g. fair skin, a higher than average incidence of ginger hair etc.) that the English don't have (and this may even be true due to being slightly less acessible though I doubt it's that significant culturally). Also, being a naturally fairly tolerant culture (albeit with a bit of moaning from the Daily Mail reading 'Little Englanders') I think they worry they may be losing themselves among the host of diverse and (due to the expatriate cultural amplification you've mentioned) clearly distinct cultures that are thriving in Britain today.
Rogue Slayer, not sure. Some of Buffy seemed to be about showing that Buffy was (at least) a match for Angel, Spike, Giles (and later on the far more patriarchal Watcher's Council), Riley (and the very patriarchal Initiative) and male dominated society in general. But I agree it was also about girl power as a separate entity from the whole society thing which I also have no problem with provided (as with Buffy, IMO) it's done without trivialising men or their contributions to the world (without glossing over the ones we might not want credit for ;) since, aside from being slightly insulting personally, I think it just causes resentment and a sort of laddish anti-feminist backlash which doesn't help anyone.
Saje | March 31, 23:16 CET
annieb - Quite the contrary, I think its encouragement to explore someone unlike yourself for the writer/writers.
sethsky - Spike: Old Times and Spike vs. Dracula admittedly aren't post-NFA, but they are a lot of fun, and written by a good writer who is a huge fan of the shows. They are Spike-centric and worth checking out.
*grins at Simon's and Rogue Slayer's comments, but stays out of it*
ETA-
Saje - reminds me of Dylan Moran's bit in his standup special Monster where he talks about how to recognize people abroad. "You never hear anyone say to an American "I'm sorry, what? Could you please speak up? And the British of course just blend right in. You'll happen past a table in a restaurant and hear something like 'What do you mean theres no chips? I came here on a plane you f***ing ****.'"
zeitgeist | March 31, 23:20 CET
...So you're saying BtVS was reality TV. Ok. I can see that.
I understand though, about the idea of Spike as a feminist character, though I am not sure I would put it quite that way. As I said before, he was put in situations many women have found themselves in and therefore rather than being simply male, he was often human. That said, though we have a tendency to attribute Spike's actions in Destiny to being a "guy." However, I am not sure that a woman who was as sensual as Spike had always been, and had just become coporeal after months of not being able to feel, touch, taste or smell would not have immediately gone for food and sex as well...especially if there had been an unattached ex nearby.
"I think the English worry that others (especially their neighbours the Scots, Irish and Welsh) appear to have more genetic integrity because there are identifiable external characteristics from each of those countries"
Saje: That is what various groups have worried about here in the US as well, both with external characteristics and with cultural ones. I felt very out of place growing up in New Jersey because my family was not connected to a strong identifiable culture like all the other kids whose grandparents were from Italy, Ireland, Germany, Russia or Poland. I was just American, which did not seem to mean anything specific at all either physically or culturally. It was not until I dated the fellow I mentioned earlier that I started understanding some of the things that were identified as American...both rightly and, in my opinion wrongly. ;-)
"lack of 'social fear' strikes me as one of the defining characteristics of Americans"
To a degree you are right, and that is why I mentioned it. It was one of the things that I realized was "so American" and yet it is often a conscious choice. The willingness to stand up for yourself socially can be very American, and yet look at all the American sitcoms and dramas based on the conflict people have about that very thing. It is almost like we feel we should, but often the impulse is not to, so there is internal conflict...for some people. Of course one reason Americans have to be willing to speak their minds is because we know we will have to occasionally tell other Americans who are being totally objectionable to, "Knock it off and find some manners. What, were you raised in a barn?" I suspect some friends of mine invite me to their house concerts to serve that very function...I think their Grandparents were from Eastern Europe. ;-)
newcj | April 01, 00:17 CET
Can I come live in your world?
And on the defining characteristics of Americans...I know the reputation we have abroad, so when I travel, I try to be very quiet. And polite. And Canadian-but that's not as easy as you'd think.
Rogue Slayer | April 01, 00:29 CET
I always see Spike as the bloke and Angel as the sensitive one.
Simon | April 01, 00:58 CET
FWIW, i'm not a big fan of that sort of Costa Del Britain approach to holidays. Why go somewhere then act as if you're at home ? Save some cash by getting on a sunbed then going down the chippy for a take-away. Job done.
(A while back I went to Japan on holiday and after a week of some gorgeous local food - apart from one nasty mustard/raw ginger mix-up, ouch, won't make that mistake again ;) - we fancied something European. After a bit of looking we found just the thing. A restaurant was serving 'Genuine British Curry'. Had to laugh. Not a bad curry either though whether it was a 'Genuine British' one i'm not sure ;-).
newcj, yeah, that's a good point. I think the extent to which we choose to adhere to certain stereotypes is sometimes overlooked. We all 'know' how Americans or Brits are supposed to act (and within each country how, for example, New Yorkers or Cockneys are supposed to act) and so it may be that to some extent we deliberately fulfill these expectations (to start with anyway, after a while i'd say it becomes a reflexive habit) as a way of self-identifying with our own group. It may apply to more abstract ideas too, for instance, I put no store in astrology (and rationally know it to be daft) but from a very early age i've known the attributes I should have as a Libra and feel myself to some extent trying to fulfill them (the desirable ones anyway, not so keen on narcissm or self-indugence despite what the length of some of my posts may indicate ;).
Rogue Slayer, being Canadian's easy. Just say aboot and eh a lot and follow ice hockey, right ? ;-)
Simon, must confess that rings truer to me too. Spike can be sensitive but he's not like that all the time. Mostly he's not very introspective, he's sometimes straightforward almost to the point of seeming simpleminded and generally seems to shrug most things off apparently not taking them very seriously. Though he's the poet of the two, somehow it's easier to believe him playing Crash Bandicoot than reading Baudelaire for fun. Much more like a _stereotypical_ male character than Angel.
Saje | April 01, 01:19 CET
Saje/Simon/etc - think one of the fun and realistic bits about Spike/William is that he is sometimes a bundle of contradictions. William the Bloody Awful Poet who sat at home with his mum, Spike the Slayer Slayer, the lost puppy who followed our Buffy around, etc.
zeitgeist | April 01, 01:53 CET
So, did anyone love it when James spoke Spanish last night? (Now you talk about a guy who is definitely not sensitive, Mr. Brainy has no heart)
spikeylover | April 01, 01:59 CET
zeitgeist | April 01, 02:08 CET
'Hoots Mon'
'It's a braw, bricht, moonlicht nicht the nicht'
'Thars a moose loose aboot this hoose'
'Ah cannae change tha laws o' physics, Cap'n'
'Aye, wur aww Jock Tamson's bairns, so we ur'
If you ever meet someone that doesn't say these phrases constantly yet claims to be Scottish you can safely assume they're lying (i'm actually muttering them under my breath as I type) so if you learn them you'll pass for a native. I also teach 'Intro to French for People Who Won't Actually Ever Speak to A French Person', lesson one being saying 'Sacre Bleu' a lot and putting on stripey jerseys. Then we move onto Advanced Beret Wearing with a view to working up to the difficult and dangerous 'string of onions round the neck'. It's a challenging yet rewarding course though, admittedly, that's a lie.
Yeah, it's true that Spike isn't easy to pigeon-hole. The swaggering brawler poet. The sensitive attempted rapist. Killer, lover, monster, champion, all those facets are, as you say, what makes him so damned interesting. An arsehole and a hero indeed (a holero ? ;) and all the better for it.
Saje | April 01, 02:55 CET
sethsky | April 01, 14:00 CET
Spike without a soul is sensitive if you compare him with other vampires without a soul. William was extremely sensitive. Spike with a soul hides his sensitivity (particularly on ATS) behind snark and swagger. There is a reasoning for that of course--because he is around people who don't particularly like him.
So, yeah, I stand behind my statement. Unsouled Spike seems to be a sensitive male trying to fit into a world where you have to be a badass to survive---and more than anything else, Spike IS a survivor.
[ edited by spikeylover on 2006-04-01 15:58 ]
spikeylover | April 01, 17:55 CET
Last year, when JM was appearing in Toronto, we all had to wait to get into the room. Someone came and carefully organized us into a long snaking line so that those who were there first, got in first.(What a concept!). One very confused American said "What are we doing?" And another American said to her wisely "We're queuing. They do that here."
Instead of discussing Spike as feminist or not, perhaps we can combine the 2 parts of this thread and consider if he is more sterotypically British or American?
Lioness | April 01, 20:43 CET